Microperf screens and projectors - Audio Mixing Room/HT

[ToddAnisman]

Hello everyone....

I am fairly new to the HT environment, so bear with me...

basically I am an Audio mixer, and I am building a HT/Mixing Room in my basement. I am considering putting a screen down there instead of a Plasma or LCD TV. However, I would require that the screen be a Microperf Screen, as I would have to have my speakers placed behind the screen. As a mixer, it would cause panning inaccuracy and sonic problems to put them to the side, on top or bottom. I know how to EQ the speakers for the loss, as I have done this many times in large Dubbing Theater installs, so I'm not worried there. However, I have read over the internet that LCD, DLP, and LCoS projectors have problems with Moire patterns on a Microperf screen. Can anyone confirm this? Also, do any of you have a recommendation?
My desired screen size id about 90-100" diagonal w/ 1.78 Aspect ratio.

Thanks in advance,

-Todd A.

[Chris D]

Hi, Todd, and welcome to the Guide! :banana: I just unpacked and set up my 119" diagonal 16:9 Da-Lite microperf screen. See my "Equipment Rack Pictures" thread in the Spaced Out part of the Guide for pictures. I'm using it with my Panasonic PT-AE700 720p projector at about 18-19' projection distance. No moire at all. The only thing I can mention is that on white pictures I can BARELY BARELY see the microperf hole pattern at bout a 10' or so seating distance. Not huge, but just not perfect. If I back up from the screen, I can't see them. So you may want to sit a bit further from the screen. I've heard that moire patterns aren't a player with screens over 96", but I don't know if that's true.

[Brandon B]

Get a screen sample from the companies you are considering and try it at the correct image size and projection distance once you get your PJ.

I'd also discount any worries of moiré with any LCOS PJ. Probably won't be a problem for you with most any PJ at that (relatively) small image size.

BB

[ToddAnisman]

chris-

Thanks for the reply. Glad to know that you're not having any issues. I am thinking about the same screen as you have...Is it an Audio Vision or High Contrast Audio vision. If you don't mind me asking what did it cost?

Here's my situation-

The room is 9' wide by 16' deep. A bit small by most HT standards (and Mixing as well...) I have M&K MPS-2550's (Pro version of the S-250) for Mains, and 1625 Surrounds. A Bryston 9B powers these guys. I use a M&K LFE-5 for Bass management, and am considering either a DBX Driverack system or Ashly Protea for EQ and delay (mostly to delay picture into sync.)

A)what screen size would you recommend? My Viewing distance will be 8-10', so i think a 100" screen might be too large...

B) What projector would you recommend?

Let's say i want to keep this on the dull side of insane, price-wise. let's say 3.5k.

what do you think?

Nice Rack BTW, althogh I would get rid of that Behringer....he he (Behringer has a bad name in my circles...)

How Much for those Captain's chairs? Those are cool, I'd love to have my clients be able to walk in and sit in one of those...

Thanks-

Todd A.

[ToddAnisman]

Brandon-

Would you recommend buying a projector before a screen? I was thinking the other way around, with the thought that the screen will be with me for many years to come, but the projector might not.... What do you think?

-Todd A.

[Chris D]

Hey, Todd, my screen is a High Contract Cinema Perf. It retails at my size for (only) $1800 or so, from what I remember. I highly recommend Salamander for equipment racks and their Matteo seating. I'm very, very happy with those. I've worked some deals, so I can't pass on what I personally paid, and it wouldn't apply anyway. Sorry!

As for your screen size, you have have 108" room width to work with. My 119" diagonal screen is 104" wide... hmmm... you COULD do the same! You'd probably do okay with a 100" diagonal screen, You may want to draw/tape out the screen dimensions on your wall and then step back and see how they look.

I'd cautiously advise people against going too small with a screen, because you may move sometime soon to a bigger house, and then feel like you have to buy a brand new screen all over again.

[ToddAnisman]

Chris-

thanks for the info. I know the deal with the deals...works that same way in my line of work....;-).

i am actuallly considering a screen that large, looks like I can pull it for about 1.5k.

Now for a projector...I might just be able to pull this off....

-Todd A.

[Brandon B]

Actually, I very much recommend buying the PJ before the screen. If I knew everything 2-1/2 years ago I know now, my PJ choice at the time would have maybe changed, but my screen choice would absolutely have changed.

How? I've realized I really would have preferred a constant height setup where scope movies are the largest presentation, even if it would have meant my 1.85:1 movies would have been a little smaller. I've realized very few people ever decide they went too big with a screen. I've encountered room arrangement issues (speaker placement, furniture placement, etc.) that could have been worked out a little better if I had spent more time experimenting with a temp screen.

BB

[ToddAnisman]

Brandon-

Hmm...something to consider. I noticed you are in Los Angeles, can you give me any recommendations on some good shops here in town?

Thanks,
-Todd A.

[Dean McManis]

I've had two perforated screens now and I was surprised how good the sound was through them with all 3 front channels behind the screen. I have noticed some moire issues at certain screen/image sizes. So I'd also recommend getting the projector first and set screen samples on the wall at your optimal viewing distance.

My experience showed that the moire pattern was only an issue within a narrow range of projected image size. When the image was bigger it was fine, and when it was smaller it was fine. And the moire range was different between D-ILA, DLP, and LCD projectors. Which also shows the advantage of getting the projector first, so that you can test it out.

[ekkoville]

What is the viewing distance for a 100"-110" screen anyway? How close is too close? Dean, thanks for chiming in, I have wondered how good perf screens really sound. I am considering a number of speakers, M&K being one of them, and would like to be able to put all three channels behind. Todd, I am not sure what the model of M&K you have looks like, but they must sound awsome.

[ToddAnisman]

What is the viewing distance for a 100"-110" screen anyway? How close is too close? Dean, thanks for chiming in, I have wondered how good perf screens really sound. I am considering a number of speakers, M&K being one of them, and would like to be able to put all three channels behind. Todd, I am not sure what the model of M&K you have looks like, but they must sound awsome.

ekkoville-

with the right signal processing, Perf screens can sound great. I'm fairly used to them, as in the Mixing world I am in uses perf screens in any re-recording theater. The M&Ks look like the standard S-150, but they have 2 additional 6.5" drivers on the sides to lower Low Freq distortion and increase SPL. Here's a link:

http://www.mkprofessional.com/mps2550.htm

They sound really good, smooth and articulate. they have a tendency to get bright, but I think that willl work out behind a perf screen. However, the biggest reason I bought them was because they translate. I can mix on them, not get fatigued, and they will translate the next day. That's huge.

Anyone ever compare a Stewart Gray or Firehawk to the Da-lite? Just wondering if there's a reson for that 2x price tag on the Stewart stuff...

-Todd

[ToddAnisman]

I've had two perforated screens now and I was surprised how good the sound was through them with all 3 front channels behind the screen. I have noticed some moire issues at certain screen/image sizes. So I'd also recommend getting the projector first and set screen samples on the wall at your optimal viewing distance.

My experience showed that the moire pattern was only an issue within a narrow range of projected image size. When the image was bigger it was fine, and when it was smaller it was fine. And the moire range was different between D-ILA, DLP, and LCD projectors. Which also shows the advantage of getting the projector first, so that you can test it out.

Dean, thanks for chiming in.... Do you have a projector recommendation in the 2k range?

-todd

[Brandon B]

Brandon-

Hmm...something to consider. I noticed you are in Los Angeles, can you give me any recommendations on some good shops here in town?

Thanks,
-Todd A.

No, I have not purchased any of my stuff from B&M consumer type dealers, and all the vendors I use in work are business channel only and priced accordingly.

BB

[Dean McManis]

Dean, thanks for chiming in.... Do you have a projector recommendation in the 2k range?

-todd

I had this choice to make about 6 months ago and bought the Infocus SP5000, and it has been great. Also considered at the time was the Panasonic AE700, which is impressive too. :T

For under $1500 the new NEC LT20 looks impressive. But still I'd pay a bit more for native 720p capability. :B

Anyone ever compare a Stewart Gray or Firehawk to the Da-lite? Just wondering if there's a reson for that 2x price tag on the Stewart stuff...

I have a Grayhawk, and had a Da-Lite perf screen. The Stewart screen looks and sounds better, but the price jump probably can't be justified with projectors in this price range. 8)

-Dean.

[Chris D]

Dean, you think Stewart microperfs pass audio better than Da-Lite?

This is a really good topic, as it's true that a Stewart microperf will cost probably a little less than double what the same size Da-Lite will run you.

[Dean McManis]

Yes Chris. The Da-Lite was very good, with no muffling as I had expected with it being my first perf screen.
But Microperf was better. It had smaller holes, but more of them.
Stewart had included an equalizer for the center channel, but the audio was so clear that I never installed it. :T

Still, the price difference is steep, and the audio improvement is relatively small so it's an individual call. :wink:

I've also run regular fixed screens with the speakers on the sides, and the center channel below the screen (aimed up) and that works well too. :B

[ToddAnisman]

Yes Chris. The Da-Lite was very good, with no muffling as I had expected with it being my first perf screen.
But Microperf was better. It had smaller holes, but more of them.
Stewart had included an equalizer for the center channel, but the audio was so clear that I never installed it. :T

Still, the price difference is steep, and the audio improvement is relatively small so it's an individual call. :wink:

I've also run regular fixed screens with the speakers on the sides, and the center channel below the screen (aimed up) and that works well too. :B

Hmm...I find this interesting. We use Stewart Microperf Screens in our Dubbing theaters, and the EQ curves reflect a serious deficiency at 5k. I find it intersting that that is not being seen here... Mix magazine did an article on perf screens recently, and gave Stewart relatively poor marks, with Screen Research getting the best marks. Of course screen research screens are ridiculously expensive. here's link if you're interested...

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_new_perforated_screens/

this also may be of interest-

In the Film world, all of the theaters have what's called the X-Curve EQ in the theaters, which compensates for the loss going through the screen. So I'm a bit confused when people say that they expect (not you Dean, others...) a screen to be acustically transparent- this seems to be a newer concept that we in the Pro world have not heard of...

before i read the mix article i wasn't even concerned about the freq response, as i felt i could ( and Can) correct it with time alignment and EQ.

Does this not happpen in most HT setups? Chris? Dean?

Le tme know what you think about this!!!

-Thanks,
-Todd A.

[Chris D]

Todd- yeah, I don't have any misconceptions that perforated screens are COMPLETELY transparent. The goal is then just to find one that minimizes sound interference. All I know is that I when I set up my Da-Lite perf screen in front of my speakers, I couldn't tell a difference in sound. I'm sure there was one there that was measurable on equipment, but since I didn't notice one, it's cool with me.

Using the perf, I'm able to put all three of my front speakers and dual subwoofers) behind the front screen wall, making them invisible. But the greatest reason I do it is so I can place my center directly in the middle of the screen, for perfect sound imaging.

[Dean McManis]

Yeah, I also didn't do any scientific tests or audio delay measurements to judge either of my perforated screens. Just my ears. And they both sounded great.

But my front speakers are bi-amped Carver Amazing Platinums, which are normally a bit bright with 4' ribbons, so if a bit of the high end was getting clipped with the screen I'm not missing it. The sound is clear and lifelike and music sounds great.

My center channel is a McIntosh HT-4, which I picked because it matched the sound of the Carvers best, and dialog is still very crisp through the screen.

[Nick M]

I'm also considering front projection for my room (18'x11'). If it's any help, I've read that for 720p resolution you should have a display with a diagonal measurement roughly equal to your viewing distance divided by 1.3. In my case, this would be 8'/1.3 = ~74", so I'm considering a 73" screen size.

[ekkoville]

Are you considering perf screens Nicholas? If so, what have you looked at.

Chris, your mains are floorstanders, right? And only the tweeter is probably behind the screen. If I get floorstanders, is it ok I guess to have just half the speaker below the screen.

[Chris D]

Nicholas: Yeah, that equation sounds right. However, I chose to go for a diagonal roughly equivalent to my seating distance. (119") My reason is that I wanted to buy as large a screen as I could that would potentially be the last screen I would ever buy. Projectors will get better and better over the years with higher and higher resolution, so I'll buy more of those. And I'll be moving into various houses, and likely to end up in a house with a larger, longer room where I can pull back the seating distance. But I don't want to have to buy a larger and larger screen each time.

Ekkoville, you're exactly right. My Klipsch KLF-30's are floorstanding, so with my large screen the tweeter and 2/3 of one woofer is behind the screen. The other full woofer is below the screen. It will still be covered by my false screen wall, made of acoustically transparent fabric (Guilford of Maine) Unfortunately, the screen frame does run in front of part of one woofer, which I don't like, but is unavoidable. You can see my theater pics in Spaced Out to get a better idea of what I'm talking about, and I'll post more as time goes on.

[ToddAnisman]

....
Ekkoville, you're exactly right. My Klipsch KLF-30's are floorstanding, so with my large screen the tweeter and 2/3 of one woofer is behind the screen. The other full woofer is below the screen. It will still be covered by my false screen wall, made of acoustically transparent fabric (Guilford of Maine) Unfortunately, the screen frame does run in front of part of one woofer, which I don't like, but is unavoidable. You can see my theater pics in Spaced Out to get a better idea of what I'm talking about, and I'll post more as time goes on.

Hmmm. Chris, I would think that this will cause Comb Filtering.... How does your rig sound? I wish I could hear it. It's tough to tell how much of what one hears is accurate...

I talked to the guys at St. John today (Dist. for Screen Research). They indicated about 2750 retail for a 52x92 woven screen which is the same one as tested in the Mix Article. So they're as expensive as Stewart, but are sonically more accurate. Boy, it's hard to tell which one to go with. I am heading up to Las vegas tomorrow to go to the NAB convention, and apparently Da-Lite is there, setup right next to the Christie Proj. booth. I am definitely going to have a conversation with them. Hopefully there will be some other Proj/screen manfacturers there as well.

Will keep you all updated!

-Todd A.

[Nick M]

They indicated about 2750 retail for a 52x92 woven screen

Holy Expensive Batman! :E :E :E

[ToddAnisman]

Holy Expensive Batman! :E :E :E

Well, i was thinking the same thing, so i asked him straight out why it was so pricey...

The claim is that a woven screen has significantly less issue with Moire, and it sounds better.

So assuming that's the case, then it's worth something. That Much? We'll see...

-T

[Dean McManis]

I tried out a couple woven screens when I was originally evaluating perf screen materials, and I thought that the audio and picture quality was the same or better in perf screens rather than woven, and some woven screens were not washable. ops:

[Brandon B]

I'm also considering front projection for my room (18'x11'). If it's any help, I've read that for 720p resolution you should have a display with a diagonal measurement roughly equal to your viewing distance divided by 1.3. In my case, this would be 8'/1.3 = ~74", so I'm considering a 73" screen size.

Get your PJ first and then decide. You do not want to figure out after the fact you wanted and could have had a bigger screen.

BB

[ToddAnisman]

well, everyone....an update.

I have now looked at abunch of PJ's. The Sanyo PLV-Z3, the Infocus SP5000, some more expensive Sharp DLP's. I chose the Panasonic AE-700U. Will be arriving Tomorrow via FEDEX. I also got a Ceiling Mount. I am in the process of Re-building my room, so it'll be a little while before I can really see this thing, but the next step is to decide on a screen. I am going to order some samples to put up so I can get a look at them.

Thanks to everyone who has helped out, especially Chris, Dean, and Brandon. Your advice was great.
I'll keep you all posted!!!!

-Todd A.

[Chris D]

New toys, Todd! :banana:

[ekkoville]

Todd, does that mean you are still going with a perf screen, I assume? Or are you getting samples of non-perf screens.

[Dean McManis]

Todd, The AE700U is a great choice! :T
Keep us advised as you progress with your HT. :B

-Dean.

[ToddAnisman]

Todd, does that mean you are still going with a perf screen, I assume? Or are you getting samples of non-perf screens.

Ekk-

I am still getting a perf'd screen. I have some time however, as I have to build some soffits into my screen wall for the speakers. Complicating this process are the side-firing drivers inthe M&K 2550's which is giving me a bit of pause.

Back to screens...

I am getting a Da-Lite sample, stewart Micro-Perf, and Screen Research.

I'll let you all know which I choose.

I also picked up 8channels of Ashly Protea Graphic EQ, Delay and Limiting...sweet. Also, My company is in the process of replacing the monitoring throught the facility, and it looks like about 10-12 Bryston 4B's are gong to Pop free, so I may just Get 4 of those to power the M&K's...that would be SICK.

ANyone interested in a mint 9BST?

he he.

-Todd A.

[ToddAnisman]

New toys, Todd! :banana:

Yeah, Right? We will have many Conversations when I getthe screenup, as I will leech form you all the sweet settings....

My chief engineer and I set the projector up on our Dubbing stage and were blown away with how much better the picture was compared to the CRT Projector that's already in there. Plus it's 1/10th the size, and 1/10th the cost. the Keystoning is excellent, and the range is great. I'm totally stoked so far.

One question-

the the HDCI (what hte hell is that port called????) Backward compatible with DVI? It would be just Sick if I coul take the DVI output of my Apple G5 and project it on the screen...he he.

-Todd A.

[ToddAnisman]

Todd, The AE700U is a great choice! :T
Keep us advised as you progress with your HT. :B

-Dean.

WILCO!!!!!

I have been taking Pics.

-T

[Brandon B]

DVI can be converted to HDMI. And you can plug your G5 into it.

BB

[Chris D]

Yup, what Brandon said. I hook my Dell laptop up to my AE700, converting the DVI to HDMI. I'll get into details, but it's a 99% solution that looks great!

[ToddAnisman]

DVI can be converted to HDMI. And you can plug your G5 into it.

BB

eeeeeeexxxxxxxxcccccccceeeeeeelllllllleeeeeeennnnn nnttttttt......

(cackles and rubs hands together in anticipation...)

-T

[ekkoville]

I'm getting a funny image as I read Todd's posts........something like Jekyl and Hide or some other mad scientist comes to mind. :rofl: Very similar to what happens in the DIY area. Sad thing though, he is keanly aware of how this is going to play out, especially if the Bryston's come his way!

[Dean McManis]

DVI is the connection, HDCP is a subset of protocols with specified features, and HDMI has further features and controls. Mostly HDCP is for encryption and copy protection.
Generally HDMI and HDCP work fine over a DVI connection and there are conversion cables to connect HDMI to DVI, but having a computer DVI connection does not automatically mean that they will work with HDCP/HDMI compliant devices (mostly consumer electronics products). HDMI has the advantage of carrying both digital video (like DVI) and digital audio, on one cable.

-Dean.

[ToddAnisman]

I'm getting a funny image as I read Todd's posts........something like Jekyl and Hide or some other mad scientist comes to mind. :rofl: Very similar to what happens in the DIY area. Sad thing though, he is keanly aware of how this is going to play out, especially if the Bryston's come his way!

????

Ye shall recognize the genius in my inherent insanity.

Seriously, this project is all about turning a huge negative into a great positive. My basement Mixing Room was destroyed by a water leak during the Heavy storms here in CA this year. Unfortunately, I was working in Thailand, and couldn't deal with the problem immediately, so the water basically sat and rotted my room away for almost 2 months. It really sucked. I came home and almost cried. fortunately, I have great friends and parents that saved most of my expensive equipment, so at least I had a base to re-build.

And so re-building I am. I decided to go with a screen because of theprice of HDTV's- Flat panel LCD, Plasma, etc. It just doesn't make much sense to get on eof those, IMO. In th eprocess, the project keeps expanding nd expanding, but I am totally going for it. iwas really lucky in that I had about 20K sitting inthe bank, so I have the funding.

Ultimately I want to build a roomthat I can just totally enjoy an love, both to unwind in and work in.

That's why I am a bit crazy sometimes- trying to find a sense of humor in a stressful time....

He he.

My Room will be sick when completed.

You will bow to the power...

huh? :B

-Todd

:B :E

[Chris D]

Todd- That's exactly what my theater room has been for the last 2 years. Many people think I'm crazy to have built it at all, much less spent that much time on it. But it's been very cathartic and eductional to work on it, much less have it done now and actually enjoy it.

[ToddAnisman]

Todd- That's exactly what my theater room has been for the last 2 years. Many people think I'm crazy to have built it at all, much less spent that much time on it. But it's been very cathartic and eductional to work on it, much less have it done now and actually enjoy it.

Not to mention the envy of everyone in your neighborhood!!!!!

My friends and family have dealt with my eccentricity for many years now, so no one really questions me anymore, they just roll their eyes and smile...

-T

[Chris D]

Todd, there have been two downsides to completing my theater. I don't have a project to really work on anymore. I do have a billion little tweaks and adjustments I need to make with the theater, which keep me busy, but in general it's been a switch to spending time just sitting and enjoying it instead of working on it. Not a bad thing in general, but... I don't know... it's nice to just have a project to work on.

The other thing is I don't have a room anymore to store all my tools and equipment! I'm going to have to clear a space in my garage for them now.

[ToddAnisman]

So just a quick update....

I have now purchased all the major components of my system- I went with a Da-lite High Contrast Cinema Perf w/ the cinema contour and protrim. I went with a Panasonic AE-700U for a projector. I am running Component, PC, Composite, and HDMI to the projector. The Drywalling downstairs is almost finished, and I have built the speaker soffits. thanks again for everyone's help!!!!

-Todd A.