1098 with 9B ST bryston

[cadman]

1098 with 9B ST bryston anybody try this setup or rotel amp1095

wich one would sound better in dynamic and sound stage
I have the 1095amp that I am testing now its pretty good but I did not listen to the 9B ST or SST Bryston can somebody put some light on me?
dilema dilema dilema hehhhh!

[greggz]

I think the general consensus is that the 1095 is 95%+ as good an amp as the Bryston, but at half the cost.

The Bryston has just a slight bit more transparency in the upper registers. The 1095 is often described as "laid back" which can be a plus on those bright movie mixes. In the bass area the 9B has a dampening factor of 500 vs 400 for the 1095.

With the 9B you get 5x120w (tho really measures more like 5x150w). With the 1095 you get 5x200w. For 2 channel listening, because of the 5 individual toroids, the 9B is still 2x120w, but with its 2 massive shared toroids, the 1095 is more like 2x235w.

Stereophile Guide to Home Theater reviewed the 1095 and had the 9B on hand for comparison.

http://www.rotel.com/introduction/pdfs/reviews/poweramps/rmb1095-sght-feb01.pdf

Gregg

[jimmyp58]

Being that I am a proud owner of both a Rotel and Bryston amp I can honestly say that there is a significant difference between the two amps. There is at least three other folks that frequent this site that have both a Rotel and Bryston amp and they feel as I do. Construction, design, sound, separation, lifelike reproduction, etc. all display differences in how these amps sound. I notice Greggz that you have a Rotel RMB-1095 but have you ever sat down and listened to a Bryston amp for a prolonged period of time or are you taking the word of one author and his opinion of what he heard? General consensus? From what source(s) (besides this one article)? Furthermore, the author of this article is referring to an older Bryston version and not the newer 9B SST. Lets be objective and help our friends out with unbiased info. Yes, this is a Rotel thread and I know we are all proud of our Rotel investment and our decision to go Rotel over other amps but I think it is unfair to render comment if we haven't experienced a product for ourself. No problem referring to the article but general consensus, I'd like to see the proof --- including yourself.

Most folks would say that the Rotel amp (or Rotel products in general) are very high quality products that are a great value and produce quality output. But I would highly doubt any expert would say that a Rotel amp is of the same class as a Bryston, Krell, Classe', Chord, etc. Take a look at the major recording studios that rely on the highest levels of quality sound reproduction. They use the manufacturers listed above; I rarely if ever see Rotel on their lists of amps used.

Now this isn't to say Rotel is bad. Quite the contrary. What I would ask the author of this thread is what will you be listening to the most in your ht --- music (%)/movies (%)? From this, I'd render an opinion. If the gentleman would say, I listen to music 85% or >, I'd probably tell him that Bryston would give him a truer sound reproduction than the Rotel. If it is more toward movies, Rotel is a solid bet and superior value. From there, I'd encourage him to audition both and hear it for himself --- perhaps take each amp home and audition them on his speakers/setup to see which would sound better. Yes, the Bryston will cost more but if he is a perfectionist for sound reproduction he may feel the extra $$$ is worth it.

I started off with the Rotel RMB-1095 going solo on my system and besides driving my center and surrounds, it drove my fronts too. Hence when I was listening to 2-channel music, this was my power source. I was very pleased with its performance. On the otherhand, I kept hearing about Bryston amps from a variety of sources and all indicated the sound reproduction was fabulous especially for music. So, I chose to audition a Bryston 2-channel amp, fell in love with the sound it produced for music, and noted the difference between the sound of the Rotel and Bryston. Once I hit this point it was supremely clear to me that for my ears, the Bryston would serve me best as my front speaker sound source while the Rotel would be wonderful for my surrounds/center. I listen to music > 85% of the time.

To the original author, I'd suggest auditioning both and hear it for yourself and make your judgement. Would the Bryston do a great job for you. For certain; will the Rotel do a great job, certainly as well. You'll just need to sort out what your goal(s) are and make your choice(s) from there.

Good luck...

Jim

[cadman]

well thanks for that beatiful answer jimmyp58

I like music period
2 ch stereo is good to relax but I like to get that sound going to my stomic
you know what I mean

5.1 I love that sound goes all around me also the power of an explosion
and all and the detail

besacally I love sounds and a good dynamic

I cant say 50% and 50% depend how I feel mostly music for every day
DVD movies saturday nite with familly

just love DVD musical shows ex.. eric clapton , Pavarotti , ....

I have the 1095amp with JM-Labs and its really good
but I need to listen to a Bryston

[greggz]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I have sufficient experience with Bryston amps to comment. I cited the article because it supported my belief.

You are correct. Sound engineers love Bryston amps. But, if you ask them why though, you wont get a gush of adjectives and hyperbole that sounds like a stereo mag review. What you'll hear is is "low distortion/no coloration", "you can drive the hell out of them all day long", "modular design for easy repair", and "killer warranty". Of course we all strive for the first one (well, all of us except tube people ), but the others are critical in the pro environment.

So, we'll have to agree to agree that the Bryston amp is better than Rotel amp. But I guess we will have to disagree to the degree of which one is better then the other. And finally, again we agree that there is no substitution for one's own personal audition.




Gregg

[LEVESQUE]

I completely agree with Jimmyp58 post. Well said, well writen.

I own both the Bryston 4BSST and the RoteL RMB-1095.

The only thing that greegz and Jimmyp58 didn't address is the different grounding scheme design. Just ask Jimmy about the noise coming from his 1095 w/o a cheater plug :cry: (I have the same problem). And after lots and lots of E-Mail with Rotel techs, we agreed that the implementation of the grounding scheme is different and more prone to produce a low-level grounding noise in the Rotel, compare to the Bryston.

But if you are anal like me and Jimmy, this can really bother someone. My Bryston is dead silent, and my 1095 is always producing this white noise w/o a cheater plug.

I think we are justified to ask for complete silence from a 2000$ amp.

I'm keeping my 1095 for now because it's doing an awesome job for multi-channel material, but the Bryston shines for 2ch stereo.

I'm just waiting for some reports on the new Anthem P5... and then maybe the 1095 will go... :LOL:

You could compare the Rotel to a Subaru WRX STi (0-100km/h in 4.9 sec) and the Bryston to a Porsche 911 (0-100 in 4 sec). You reach 0-100 in around the same time, but on a long road, you know wich one will give you less back-pain, less cursing at each bump of the road and less exterior noises because of the quality of the assembly... :LOL:

[lcajiga]

Hi Levesque. Sorry for the question (I'm pretty new here) but what is a "cheater plug"?




Regards,
Luis

http://www.luiscajiga.com/HT.htm

"It is not what you see and hear...it is how!"

[vsarathy]

Hi Levesque,

I am also rather new to this forum and am planning on buying the Rotel 1098/1095 combo very soon. I would like to know more about the grounding problem with the 1095 amplifier that you are referring to as well as about the "cheater plug". I would appreciate it if you could elaborate on those. If this topic has already been discussed at length in another thread, please point me to that.

Thanks,
Viji

[greggz]

The only thing that greggz and Jimmyp58 didn't address is the different grounding scheme design. Just ask Jimmy about the noise coming from his 1095 w/o a cheater plug

That’s a very good point. I forgot about grounding. Agreed the 1095 is very prone -- maybe too prone -- to grounding introduced noise.

I chose a rather brute force approach to solve it. I replaced the stock power cord of the 1095 with a 14ga shielded power cord and took a pair of pliers and just yanked out the grounding pin and covered the hole with a small piece of electrical tape.

To answer the previous question, a "cheater plug" turns a 3 prong plug into a two prong plug by floating (disconnecting) the ground. Also many cheater plugs have two identical size blades so that they can be plugged in either way, allowing you to reveres the polarity to see if that helps too.




Gregg

[vsarathy]

Gregg,

Could you explain to me why having grounding would introduce noise in an amp? Thanks.

Viji

[jimmyp58]

From what I have come to understand, it is a ground plane design issue. Don't ask me what this is because I am not a techy-guy but I have spent countless hours trying to track this down to no avail. All I know, and levesque said it for me because we've had a lot of discussions via e-mail back-and-forth, is that I have my Bryston connected to my RSP-1098 and I have my RMB-1095 connected to it as well. Dead silence from the Bryston; my 1095 has some very slight buzz but it is with the cheater-plug installed and it is ridiculously noisy without it in place. Levesque has an Anthem AVM-20 as his pre-pro and he has the same issue so I think we can eliminate the pre-pro as the problem.

Bottom line is that Bryston's are built differently than Rotel's and for this scenario, there is a buzz that occurs with the Rotel and not the Bryston. I chose to not include this in my response to greggz's post because I have this threaded in a different forum here plus I didn't want the whole conversation to go negative. I truly do like the Rotel sound from my 1095 for the components I have it hooked up to. When I auditioned it, I also was considering an Anthem MCA-50 and a B&K 200.5. I really liked the Rotel sound vs. the others cited hence my decision to go Rotel. But to levesque's point, I am very disappointed that I dropped $2K on an amp that has this problem; I should not have to use a $0.69 device to bandaid their design issue. I am going to have my ht guy come over to see if there is something else that can be done because I do not want to use a cheater plug for the long-haul. I went so far as to installing two dedicated/isolated 20 amp circuits too --- this path should be completely clean and free from this grounding issue. If my ht guy cannot get it fixed, I will trade it in for either some other Brystons, Classe', or Krell amps. It is sad that a $2,000 amp has these problems.

Jim

[vsarathy]

Jim,

Thanks for elaborating on the problem. What I am also curious about is whether the grounding problem occurs for some unexplained reason only becuase you have two amps (1095 & the Bryston) connected to the pre-pro. Does it still occur with just the 1095 conneced to the 1098? Apparently, there are more than a handfull of folks in this forum that own a 1098/1095 combo and I haven't seen any mention of it from others.

I am just trying to get as much information on this issue as possible so that I may explain this to my dealer before buying the amp and ask for potential remedies (aside from the "cheater plug" ). I am not in a position to consider the Bryston and the 1095 is a great buy for my needs.

Thanks,
Viji

[greggz]

Viji,

Check out this link http://www.smr-home-theatre.org/Ground-Loops/

Jim,

I'm sure you've investigated the most obvious culprits of noise (cable box, halogen lights, dimmer switches, refrigerators, and computer UPS's), but I did have one thought. Your two dedicated 20 amp circuits, are they on different sides of the circuit breaker box? Sometimes a loop problem can occur if you have 1 circuit on the right side of the trunk and 1 circuit on the left side of the trunk and your audio equipment spread across both of them. Moving all of the equipment so that it is on the same side of the trunk could help




Gregg

[jimmyp58]

vsarathy, as I investigated this I had everything removed from the pre-pro (all interconnects) and had everything else disconnected from the wall outlets. All that was plugged in and turned on was the amp; the pre-pro, while plugged in, was not on. The speaker cables from the amp to the speakers were intact too.

greggz, my 2 dedicated circuits are on the same side and I understood this to be a potential issue going in so I specifically had it set up with this in mind. All the other things you mentioned, as I was doing my investigating, were disconnected. All I had left was my interconnects from my pre-pro to my 1095 and the speaker cables from the 1095 to the respective speakers. I went so far as to disconnect the 1095 interconnects from the 1098 and then connect those same interconnects from the 1098 to an input on the Bryston --- no noise at all!

Jim

[cadman]

grounding problem occurs when you have satellite connect
I had this problem I solved it with breaking of the third prong from plug
groung (pin)

[jimmyp58]

By removing the 3rd plug, wouldn't you void the warranty? Just a thought.

Jim

[Andrew Pratt]

I don't advise breaking the ground pin or using cheater plugs as its a potential electrical hazzard and while I'm sure Rotel would prefer you all to buy a Rotel amp I know they're be more concerned about people being electrcuted by using them incorrectly. Ground loops are a pain in the butt and frequently difficult to track down but they can be fixed. If possible please try to fix the root of the problem first before using a band aid that's potentially lethal. Remember that if there's a grounding issue showing up in the amp its likely there for the other devices as well that could potentially effect their sonics or visual impacts as well.

Are both your amp and pre amp plugged into the same 20 amp line? Also trace the lines back to the panel and make sure that any satellite, cable or other sources of poorly grounded devices aren't running parallel to those runs.

[jimmyp58]

Been there, done that, times three. And yes, I've gone to the lengths as you've mentioned to regarding the panel and other possible sources. I've plugged the pre-pro into the same outlet as the 1095 on the dedicated circuit. I've plugged it into a different outlet. I've changed interconnects. I've disconnected all other potential sources. I've even plugged the devices into completely different outlets in the house via extension cord. Still buzzing. As I said a little earlier, I disconnected EVERYTHING from the pre-pro so that the only thing that was connected to it was the amp so there is no other interference from other sources.

And I concur with you, regardless what anyone says it is a significant hazard to eliminate the ground plug so one needs to find the source. I am pretty well convinced it is an issue with the 1095 though from a design perspective.

Jim

[Azeke]

I know how some of you despise Monster products for the high market pricing. I own the Monster Cable Reference PowerCenter HTS 3500 MKII (web pricing is better than local retailers), and before utilizing this product experienced buzz and hum from my speakers both front and rears, with the RMB-1095, and Monster Cable HTS 3500, (not the Mark II, they have upgraded the internal/external components on the Mark II). I called Monster and informed them that I was experiencing problems with their product, they sent the new model MK II version(without cost due to the 5 year warranty) and voila, silence (go figure). I tried all possible senarios, to isolate the problem, wire management, unplug each component, disconnect cable, this was truly fustrating. Is it coincidence, I'm not completely sure, but now everything is as "quiet as a tomb".

This is not an advocation for Monster products, I'm just providing a viable alternative that may be worth considering.

Your mileage may vary,

Azeke

[jimmyp58]

thanks azeke but I own two Monster Power HTS 5100's and I tried the 1095 with them and without. No luck there either....

Jim

[Tomek]

Just to let you guys know, I'm experiencing the buzzing with my RB-1090. I've tried a few things, including the Monster HTS-5100 with no luck. I'm using the "cheater plug" to avoid the annoying background noise. I've also noticed that the buzzing noise level varies with the setting of a light dimmer in the circuit, so I plan to investigate furhter. However, sounds like that may not take care of it either if many are experiencing the problem with RMB-1095, which I think can be a similar design issue.

[vsarathy]

Given the litany of complaints about the grounding problem in this thread, I was wondering if this problem was communicated to Rotel and if they responded.

Also, I wonder how many 1095 owners in this forum have experienced this?

Curiously,
Viji

[DSGCobra]

I am using the 1098 with a 1095 and have not had any of these buzzing noises. I am using a cheater plug on the 1095. My house is over 60 years old and I'm not even running any kind of dedicated circuit either. I'm probably a fire hazzard waiting to happen.

[vsarathy]

Do you need to use the cheater plug in order to eliminate the buzzing noise? Did you get the noise without it?

Viji

[Azeke]

Sorry to hear that Jimmy . It seems that some get the noise with the 1095 while others don't, I know there are many factors to consider. Perhaps there is some common denominator that has eluded us.

Any other forum members have noise issues with the 1095 or 1075 and eliminated it through some other means, beside the cheater plug.

Perhaps this should be a new thread, my apologies.

Regards,

Azeke

[jimmyp58]

I have to use the cheater plug to get rid of the noise. If I don't, it buzzes beyond belief (I can actually hear it upstairs in my house).

I have called Rotel and they insist it is a grounding problem and not their amp though they gave me a list of tricks to try to see if I could isolate it. If not, they'd be willing to concede that it may be the amp. As I have said before, I have disconnected everything from my pre-pro except for my 1095 so what else could be causing the problem. To me it is either a defective amp or more likely a defective design with the 1095. As I have said too, when I connect my Bryston to the pre-pro with nothing else attached I don't even get white noise --- that's quiet. I know there exists a litany of things that can cause a grounding problem and that it is difficult to isolate them but after all these exhaustive measures and with only the 1095/1098 connected to each other, there simply is nothing that could cause the buzz other than a defective amp or design flaw. I know I am repeating myself but to me it is that obvious. My electrician even went through this with me in great detail and his conclusion is that there exists an internal design grounding issue with this amp.

So like I said, I am going to have my ht guy come over and take a look for himself. From there I may have decisions to make.

Jim

[vsarathy]

dsgcobra:

I am using the 1098 with a 1095 and have not had any of these buzzing noises. I am using a cheater plug on the 1095.

You haven't had any of the buzzing noises because of using the cheater plug? Are you implying that you have the problems as well without the plug?

Viji

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I too nearly went mad a few months ago trying to track down the hum from a RB 1080. We had major hum / hiss on the 1080 and no hum / hiss on an identically connected RMB 1075. A new RB 1080 and still the hum and hiss.

I had specialist HT electricians in my house. There was only the tiniest amount of earth current (2-3mv) which is less than normal according to the techs. All sorts of things influenced it, we got rid of the normal things by putting in antenna isolators on the TV antenna and the Satellite antenna (reduced the hum). We gave the 1080 its own dedicated circuit (reduced the hum). We removed all phone inputs from the 1080 (hum reduced but still there). However it got to the point that just connecting (powered off but plugged in) a VCR with a two pin plug in another room to an antenna created hum. There seemed to be several sources of hum all really tricky to remove. Interestingly as the 40/100Hz hum removed it became clear that there was a white noise type his as well.

We tried mega-buck sine-wave tracking mains filters. Still the hum/hiss.

I changed to a yet another new RB 1080. Still the hum.

Then (desperate) I did a serious web search, including back postings in this forum, Hometheaterforum.com, etc. Some things emerged:

• I wasn't alone. This was a problem in the US, UK and Australia.
• It seemed to apply to all Rotel 10 series Amps with a balanced input (RB 1080, RB 1090 and RMB 1095).
• The problem related to the earthing scheme in these amplifiers to support the balanced input, essentially making the amplifier susceptible to earth loop / mains imbalances creating hum and white noise.
• The most stubborn problem related to noise on the mains (such as that from the antenna to the VCR in the other room), through the mains circuit, back to the switchboard, back down the separate circuit, into the Rotel Amplifier and then jumping across to the ground creating hiss and hum on the way.
• In some cases measure such as the one I had tried worked.
• Many people have no problem, but for those with a problem it can be intractable.
• However for many with hum, the dreaded cheater plug is the only answer.
• I got my trusty electrician. We tested the unit with a cheater plug - no live chassis and NO HUM.
• Cheater plug made - problem gone for ever.

Ground loop hum is a general home theatre problem. However there seems to be a special type of grounding scheme that is maddeningly susceptible to it. For example there are a number of web posts in Hometheaterforum of people with older model Bryston amps having the same issue and Bryston taken them back and upgrading to their latest earthing scheme - problem gone.

Bottom line - I'm personally sure that Rotel has a weakness / quirk in the earthing / grounding scheme for the RB 1080, RB 1090 and RMB 1095 that makes it more than usually susceptible to ground loop noise and hum. Search the posts yourself and you will see.

It will be great when Rotel fixes this (while it doesn’t affect most people, from the evidence on the web it has driven many, many people crazy or forces them into the cheater plug scenario). In the mean time, as Andrew has recommended, try all those things, get yourself a HT specialist electrician and, when your money and patience run out and you are confident that there is no actual ground loop current of any significance - try a cheater plug and enjoy the silence!

PS - Rotel - if you are reading this - please please please consider an alternate grounding scheme for your balanced amplifiers that avoids this nearly imposible to kill hum, leaving only the more fixable ground loop hum.

Geoff Costello

[jimmyp58]

Thanks Aussie Geoff...this is a wonderful post and answers what I have felt along (and my electrician too) that it is a design issue with the Rotel RMB-1095. True, there is an interference that causes this but because of their design, they are more prone to this scenario than those pieces of equipment (like newer Bryston amps) that have a better/different design.

Jim