Amp for B&W 802D's - Music and HT

[joe_s]

I'm still wrestling with amp (and processor) choices to match with a set of 802D's from B&W. So far, I've been recommended McIntosh (MC501 monoblock) and Classe (CA2200 or CA M400). I haven't really compared the processors yet, although that's a big piece of the equation - I think.
Any experience out there with these products teamed with B&W ?
Thanks.

[Patt]

Not much experience here but the best I've heard were the 803D's with Mcintosh 501's.

After arriving at the store...(an old 2 story house converted into a retail establishment)...I was walking up the sidewalk to the door when I heard someone inside playing an acoustical guitar. At least that is what I thought until finding out a CD was playing through those speakers.

Enjoy!

[jericho]

What about parasound jc-1?Not bad at all to drive the 802D???

[stringzz]

Joe,

for a processor, you should look into the Bryston sp1.7. I just picked one up and it is great for both music and home theater. The 2/5.1 analog bypass uses a seperate circuit and power supply. It is the same circuit as their bp25 2 channel preamp. There is also no video switching that would introduce more noise. It is dead quiet and sounds heavenly. I have 803's with this setup.

For amps, I know Bryston makes some heavy duty power houses that your speakers may crave (300w or 600w per channel).

You might want a high powered 2 channel for your 802's and a smaller 3 or 5 channel for the rest of your setup.

I bet those 802's will sound like nirvana! Good Luck

[caleb]

I have the B&W 802's and use a Bryston 7B SST for each fromt channel.

Drives the 802's like a charm with plenty of OOmph when you need it.

My rear 802's and centre HTM1 are driven from a TAG 250x3.

[JKalman]

Ayre makes some of the best sounding equipment I have heard so far. I used to recommend Bryston because that is what I am using, but lately I have started recommending Ayre. They have a 200 wpc stereo amp, a 150 wpc stereo amp and 150 wpc 5 channel amp. They are about to release a 300 watt monoblock soon. Here is a link to their stereo amplifier: Ayre V-1xe 200 wpc amp

I've never heard an amplifier and preamp combo sound as dimensional and lifelike as the Ayre gear, and this includes $20k Classe amps and $30k Halcro amps. I felt the Ayre amp sounded better than the Classe gear by a long shot. The best thing for you to do is to find a dealer who will let you bring home pieces a night at a time to demo them with your speakers so you can make an informed decision. I'm currently saving up for the Ayre amp to replace my Bryston 9B SST amp. I do plan on keeping my Bryston SP1.7 preamp/processor for HT though. The SP1.7 has one of the best audio bypass circuits on the market IMO.

I have not demoed the McIntosh 501s but they have been compared to the Halcros I demoed, only with a smaller soundstage, by Stereophile magazine I believe. I felt the Ayre gear sounded better than the Halcro gear despite the price discrepancy. I also found the Ayre amp listed above to sound better than the more expensive Omega Classe amps. Sound quality is a subjective thing though, so it is important you demo things for your self. Only you can know which one you like better out of these groups. I found that the all Ayre system (Ayre amp, preamp, and universal stereo player for a source) blew the Halcro amps away running the expensive dCS stacks. That Halcro/dCS setup is probably worth more than $60k, not including the price of the speakers which were around $20k more. This is why I am saving up my pennies for an all Ayre system. :W

I would take your time and demo everything you can and not buy anything impulsively. I would especially go out of your way to demo the Ayre equipment. I already bought their C-5xe universal stereo player and need a few more thousand to get that stereo amp listed above. The Ayre system blew me away with the quality of sound it put out like nothing I have heard so far to date. I should probably save up for those monoblocks, but I think this would be overkill for the 802Ds. The 200 wpc put out by the Ayre amp I listed above is more than enough to drive the 802D, especially since the wpc doubles as the ohms halve, a sign of good engineering. The Ayre 150 wpc amp ran Wilson Watt Puppy 7s with no problems, and that is a speaker that costs almost twice the price of the 802D, though it has a speaker sensitivity of 92 dB or so as compared to the 802Ds 89 dB, that is still a small difference.

Here are links to info about the Ayre monoblocks about to be released soon. I highly recommend you wait and demo them before buying anything. I can't express in words how good their equipment sounds, and considering how mind blowing their 150 wpc stereo amp sounded, I can't even imagine how good that 300 watt monoblock must sound. You must do yourself the favor of going out of your way, as far as you have to, to demo their equipment, or you might end up like me later on down the road when you finally get to hear them, regretful at having wasted money on other gear which does not measure up in sound quality.

Ayre What's New

Stereophile CES 2006: Ayre 300W MX-R

[xk8boy]

JKalman, Ayre V-1xe 200 wpc mono is only a 200 watt amp. I have no doubt that the V1xe will be well capable to driving the 802D, though, 802D do like lots of power behind them.

[JKalman]

The Ayre doubles its wpc into a 4 ohm load. It has more than enough power to drive the B&W 802Ds. This is a highly efficient amplifier. The 802D has a sensitivity of 89dB, match this with 200 watts on each speaker, or 400 watts when it dips down to around 4 ohms and you won't ever have a problem. I run my 802Ds with a 140 wpc Bryston 9B SST and have no problems at all playing all my media, and my tastes are eclectic. The Bryston amp isn't anywhere near as efficient either.

[JKalman]

JKalman, Ayre V-1xe 200 wpc mono is only a 200 watt amp. I have no doubt that the V1xe will be well capable to driving the 802D, though, 802D do like lots of power behind them.

You should do a little research into power and the logarithmic nature of dB to watts. if you have 106 dB with an amp that gives 100 watts/ch then doubling that to 200 only raises the dB to 109. If you double the watts/ch again to 400 you only raise the SPL ceiling to 112. Double it again to 800, you only raise it another 3 dB to 115. Double it one more time to 1600 watts/ch and you only have 118 dB. I'm sure you see how little watts/ch means in the scheme of things. To get a perceived doubling of the sound to the human ear you need ten times the watts/ch on the amplifier!

What is more important than watts/ch is a high quality amplifier and speakers with high sensitivity so that you get more dB at the starting gate and lots of clean and efficient power once you start to feed the speakers. In the case of Ayre and other high end equipment you can tell they are extremely efficient and well built because they double their power into a lower impedence, i.e. - they give 200 watts/ch into 8 ohms and 400 watts/ch into 4 ohms.

Here is a fun site for playing with SPL changes: SPL Calculator

Oh, BTW, the Ayre V-1xe is a stereo amp, not a monoblock. They will be releasing a 300 watt monoblock around this summer I heard for $15k a pair. They give info about it on their website if anyone is interested.

[georgev]

Do not forget Mark Levinson. I was using a 332, and have now got a 336. Fantastic with the 802's. They are stable down to 2ohms.
George.

[xk8boy]

hey, whats up man. take a chill pill, i just wanted to say that 802D likes power, okay, high quality power.

<LEX WEIGHING IN. Nothing was said to this point to warrent telling someone to take a CHILL PILL. So, I see this as starting point with problems. Please leave it to the Moderators to recommend meds, ok?> ADMIN

Also, i think you are being a little naive (in the kindess sense possible). Those who choose high-end speakers like the 802D have choosen them for a reason, and will choose amps of similar level to drive them. You are possibly right about the db and watt relationship, i'm in no doubt, but talking from experience, the 802D very much like power and lots of it. My 802Ds were driven by the 5200 with 200 watts, but when i switched them to m400; wow what a different. the listen level remained the same. naff said.

You should do a little research into power and the logarithmic nature of dB to watts. if you have 106 dB with an amp that gives 100 watts/ch then doubling that to 200 only raises the dB to 109. If you double the watts/ch again to 400 you only raise the SPL ceiling to 112. Double it again to 800, you only raise it another 3 dB to 115. Double it one more time to 1600 watts/ch and you only have 118 dB. I'm sure you see how little watts/ch means in the scheme of things. To get a perceived doubling of the sound to the human ear you need ten times the watts/ch on the amplifier!

What is more important than watts/ch is a high quality amplifier and speakers with high sensitivity so that you get more dB at the starting gate and lots of clean and efficient power once you start to feed the speakers. In the case of Ayre and other high end equipment you can tell they are extremely efficient and well built because they double their power into a lower impedence, i.e. - they give 200 watts/ch into 8 ohms and 400 watts/ch into 4 ohms.

Here is a fun site for playing with SPL changes: SPL Calculator

Oh, BTW, the Ayre V-1xe is a stereo amp, not a monoblock. They will be releasing a 300 watt monoblock around this summer I heard for $15k a pair. They give info about it on their website if anyone is interested.

[JKalman]

hey, whats up man. take a chill pill, i just wanted to say that 802D likes power, okay, high quality power.

Excuse me? You take a chill. All I did was share some information with you and it appears you think I am attacking you. A "thank you" would have sufficed much better than "take a chill pill". That was a paranoid reaction to what I posted which was meant as helpful information so you could understand why watts/ch are not as important as people assume (including you apparently, considering the rest of your post), because most people have no background information in the science of sound engineering and buy their equipment based on assumptions and misunderstandings due to this lack of knowledge. Their understanding is often based in "general consensus" instead of scientific fact. "General consensus", BTW, is often based on a large number uneducated people reinforcing each other's ignorance, just consider the Scopes Monkey Trial as a prime example of this kind of behavior.

<Lex weighing in, in the future, please dont' take reactive measures to such extremes, if you have a problem with a comment from member, let moderators handle it and make the determination>

Also, i think you are being a little naive (in the kindess sense possible). Those who choose high-end speakers like the 802D have choosen them for a reason, and will choose amps of similar level to drive them. You are possibly right about the db and watt relationship, i'm in no doubt, but talking from experience, the 802D very much like power and lots of it. My 802Ds were driven by the 5200 with 200 watts, but when i switched them to m400; wow what a different. the listen level remained the same. naff said.

I think you are the one who is being naive. Your idea of a good amp translates into the one with the most watts. You obviously choose to remain in the dark. IMO, your attitude stinks, "naff said", in the kindest sense possible.

The Ayre amp I mentioned is powerful enough to drive better speakers than the 802D effortlessly (it is also receiving higher praise from the audio reviewing industry than your Classe M400). That is me talking from experience. Pure horsepower is no substitute for graceful elegance. You can throw 500 HP into a car, but if it can't smoothly handle turns and if it isn't enjoyable to drive, your ride is worthless and I wouldn't give you a quarter for it. In the case of audio, that HP doesn't make a big difference unless you fool yourself into believing it does. In fact, HP is a bad analogy because Watts in relation to dB is logarithmic, which makes Watts silly to even use as an argument for showing how powerful an amp is, whereas HP usually shows how powerful a car is because there is a direct one on one translation between the two. In any case, you seem like the type who would rather drive a Grand National with 1100 HP in it than a Ferrari F430. The Grand National may be faster, but try to steer it and you will crash and burn.

Why on earth are there amps that are rated "A" quality that have only 30 watts/ch, and even less, by magazines such as Stereophile? Perhaps you should contemplate that question before you type out your next response. According to your philosophy they shouldn't be considered good enough for expensive speakers, yet they are used to drive speakers that are considered much better than the B&W 802Ds, and those amps often cost much more than any amp you mentioned.

You really should do some research and educate yourself. The truth shall set you free. :T

[stewfoo]

McIntosh/B&W combos definitely have a following. I have heard 802D's on 501s, Classe 3200 (3channel version of 2200), and CA-M400. All of them sounded great. The 3200 was a bit out-classed because of the available headroom that the other monos have. If we are comparing apples with apples with apples I would look to the two monos to give you an indication of the sonic signature of these amps. The McIntosh are warm full sounding amps that temper the bright nature of B&W speakers. They have a subtle power to them that you know is there but is kinda laid back. Classe is fast and responsive. I feel like you miss NOTHING with Classe. The midrange and highs seem so detailed, but, without the harshness that you see in mid-fi. It was much more forward and in your face. I went for Classe. Alot of B&W dealers sell both. Go hear them for yourself. It is all preference. I happen to love the quick, agile, detailed sound of Classe.

[RebelMan]

hey, whats up man. take a chill pill, i just wanted to say that 802D likes power, okay, high quality power.

You are absolutely right, the B&W 800 Series, namely the 802D’s are thirsty for power and plenty of it. Well informed enthusiasts are aware of this fact and if possessing this knowledge constitutes membership into the “general consensus” club, then count me in.

Most loudspeakers utilizing dynamic drivers are fairly efficient and have sensitivities that typically fall between 88dB and 92dB SPL. However, their corresponding impedance curves can vary considerably from brand to brand and model to model. The 802D’s, in this case, dip below 4 ohms for much of the critical midrange. In particular the 802D’s fall below 4 ohms between 60 and 300 Hz and then again between 450 and 800 Hz. In some cases pushing the limits of 3 ohms. A very needy speaker indeed. The prudent individual will consider both loudspeaker sensitivities and impedance levels when looking for a suitable power amplifier.

It is important to understand the “synergy” one should achieve between loudspeaker and equipment matching. The proper efforts put into this objective will yield a whole that is better than the sum of its parts. Classe power amplifiers, namely the newer Delta series, are well matched to B&W’s 800 Series loudspeakers for several reasons. First, they build their amplifiers with large current reserves to handle the large demands placed on them and employ design techniques utilizing components which allow them to respond quickly. Next, they only select and implement discrete electrical devices with tight tolerances that test well in the lab and handle well under practical and demanding applications. Finally, the engineers at Classe use B&W loudspeakers to “voice” their amplifiers, involving the meticulous and repetitive exercise of micro level adjustments and conducting listening sessions by using some of the finest and the most sensitive instruments in the world… their ears.

Like the Ayre V-1xe, a 200 wpc (8 ohms) amplifier, the Classe CA-2200, another 200 wpc (8 ohms) amplifier, will double down to 4 ohms. This, however, is insufficient information to gauge proper suitability of power amplifiers, like the V-1xe, for use with the B&W 802D’s, on paper. What is the dynamic headroom of the V-1xe? What is the slew rate of the V-1xe? What is the damping factor into 8 ohms? What are the distortion levels, namely THD and IMD of the V-1xe? I can tell you that you’ll not find this information published anywhere on the Ayre website. Why not? Because, as in the case of distortion levels which are moderately high for a solid state amplifier, the information may scare off the trepid.

The topology used in the design of the Ayre amplifiers lacks overall feedback loops. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Some will even argue that any feedback is detrimental to amplifier musicality. However, heeding the advice to use an amplifier, like the V-1xe, simply because it can double down to 400 wpc into a 4 ohm load should be cautioned. Along with that extra power comes extra distortion, in fact DOUBLE the distortion for each halving of impedance level.

The Ayre AX-7 has THD distortion levels around .04% at 8 ohms, about 0.1% at 4 ohms and almost a whopping 0.4% at 2 ohms across the all important midrange. Speakers that make frequent trips down to low impedance levels, like the 802D’s, may not sound well with Ayre amplifiers and probably should be avoided.

Furthermore, Ayre amplifiers have traditionally been lackluster performers in the bass arena in both extension and impact. Thankfully, much of that has been addressed in recent years. Still it is one more thing to consider when suggestions are made to pair the 802D’s, or any of the newer B&W 800 Series for that matter, with Ayre amplifiers.

Ayre amplifiers like the V-1xe would be more suitable with speakers like Wilson Audio’s WATT Puppy 7’s for their higher efficiency (93dB) and far more forgiving impedance curves which barely dip below 4 ohms (between 60 and 100 Hz).

To my ears the Classe’s Delta series components in conjunction with the B&W 800 Series loudspeakers reveal a tube like essence top end and rich midrange and deliver solid state bass that is quick and controlled and on par with some of the best in the business, a.k.a. Krell and Mark Levinson. Revealing an overall tonal quality that is lush and full.

[JKalman]

People should know that I have RebelMan on ignore because of some inapproproate behavior towards me in other posts. So I don't read what he posts and, thus, don't contest things he posts. I only see what he posts when people quote him.

<Lex weighing in. Actually, nothing was said by Rebelman in above post to indicate anything other than his opinions, which he is entitled to, so posting that you have Rebelman on ignore is of no relevence here and is inciting further problems.>

[JKalman]

A friend E-mailed me and told me that RebelMan was attacking me in this post by misquoting me and stretching statistics beyond any reasonable limit for his personal gain in arguing against things I posted and in putting down the company Ayre. I therefore feel posting this is more than justified. I am glad I have friends who are aware of the problems I have had with this guy in previous posts... Apparently, as my friend stated in the E-mail, even though he has never listened to Ayre, he has decided Classe's similarly priced equipment is better because he decides it is, despite the fact that the professional audio publishing community disagrees in their magazines from their direct listening experiences.

<Lex again saying, your making this WAY to personal. Back away from the keyboard, take a deep breath, and understand everyone has opinions. Don't take this so personal...>

[stewfoo]

lol :rofl: :wtf:

[JKalman]

lol :rofl: :wtf:

I guess I'm going to have to take him off ignore since he appears to be attacking audio companies now to stick it to me, and I can't just keep posting a disclaimer anytime word gets back to me about situations like the above post. :M

I just hope he doesn't try to get me involved in anything illegal again, like trying to get me to gamble my speakers in a bet with extremely jilted odds. That kind of garbage is bad for everyone.

[RebelMan]

People should know that I have RebelMan on ignore because of some inapproproate behavior towards me in other posts.

Nothing inappropriate has said or implied. Your entiled to your opinion as am I.

[RebelMan]

I guess I'm going to have to take him off ignore since he appears to be attacking audio companies now to stick it to me, and I can't just keep posting a disclaimer anytime word gets back to me about situations like the above post. :M

I just hope he doesn't try to get me involved in anything illegal again, like trying to get me to gamble my speakers in a bet with extremely jilted odds. That kind of garbage is bad for everyone.

Perhaps you are just a little paranoid? There have been no attemps made to attack the companies to which you hold dear and certainly nothing against you personally. The comments made are based on factual information that anyone can validate.

By the way, the validity of that challenge can not be rebuted regardless of what was at stake. It was clear when the offer was made yet not accepted that your confidence was shaken. Frankly, it needn't be anything tangible. Perhaps a public appology and self admission would suffice? Although the costs I would incurr to meet you should be shared to make this a fair and equitable experiment. However, I didn't think you would agree to that so the speakers would help cover those expenses. I am willing to work out any arrangements that would be mutually beneficial.

[stewfoo]

Cant we all just get along????

[RebelMan]

Cant we all just get along????

If we (JKalman) can agree to disagree I see nothing standing in our way.

[ThomasW]

This thread is now closed. If the primary players posting personal attacks don't stop, they're going to be banned from further posting at HT-Guide.

The moderators and admins will be discussing the behavior on this thread. Decisions regarding member's posting status will be made tomorrow.