Bass Management...what's a person to do?

[Legairre]

wng,
No problem. One thing I forgot to mention was that when I turned the sub=OFF in the 1066 menu and set my main speakers to "large". Using both the CD and digital inputs with the 1066's crossover set at "off". I couldn't tell any difference in the sound from my speakers. Both inputs seemed to produce the same sound. My mains were getting a full range signal with both inputs and they sounded the same to me.

I know everyone is a purest when it comes to analog inputs, but for me if they both sound the same and I can use my sub with the 1066 set as small then the digital input is fine with me.

I can't speak for the sound through the multi-inputs, because I haven't tried these yet(No SACD or DVD-A).

Have any of you guys noticed any difference in sound using the CD and optical inputs?




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[Legairre]

So basically, if you have small mains and a sub, and you want to use them both for pure 2 channel analog and no bass doubling, you're going to need to buy an external analog crossover.

There is one more option. You could run the speaker wires from the amp to L/R line level inputs on your sub and then run speaker wires from the subs L/R line level output to the L/R speakers.

Then set the your subs crossover where ever you want. Then on the 1066 set the SUB=OFF, CROSSOVER=OFF and SPEAKERS=LARGE. With this setup the subs will get a full range signal and only feed a signal above subs crossover to your main L/R speakers.

This setup would work fine with the CD, multi and optical inputs.




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[wng]

I know everyone is a purest when it comes to analog inputs, but for me if they both sound the same and I can use my sub with the 1066 set as small then the digital input is fine with me.   
I can't speak for the sound through the multi-inputs, because I haven't tried these yet(No SACD or DVD-A).
Have any of you guys noticed any difference in sound using the CD and optical inputs?

This would be an individual-by-individual case, as some are using a DVD player for playing CDs, thereby relying on the audio performance of the 1066's internal DAC. Some have dedicated and/or high-end CD players whose DACs may outperform the 1066's DAC, and therefore would want to keep signals analog in the 1066. Or did I misinterpret?

[Legairre]

wng,
No disrespect to anyone was intended. I was just saying I don't mind using the digital inputs if it sounds the same as the analog(too me at least).




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[wng]

Legairre, none taken. If they sound the same, I agree.

[JKohn]

No disrespect to anyone was intended. I was just saying I don't mind using the digital inputs if it sounds the same as the analog(too me at least).

When I digital connection is available, I would agree. The DAC's in the 1066 sound quite good, I'm confident they're the best DAC's in any of my equipment. But sometimes you have an analog source and digital inputs are not an option (for instance, I hope to have DVD-A playback capability in the near future).




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[Bruce]

wng,

But why would Rotel not copy the signals for the 3 other channels as well? I

Because they don't have enough ADC and DAC chips on board to do the conversions.




Bruce
____________________________________________

[Mark_C.]

This topic, with its various explanations, interpretations and implementations, has done nothing but confuse the issue even further. Perhaps we could get Rotel to directly respond to specific questions (Such as: If I hook up a high-quality CD player to the analog ins, does it bypass processing).
I seem to recall that even before the 1066 was released, there were numerous discussions at HTF about digital processing, even with stereo. I believe it was made clear that there was no true analog bypass.
Too many cooks with their own recipies certainly makes things worse.

[gd]

This topic, with its various explanations, interpretations and implementations, has done nothing but confuse the issue even further. Perhaps we could get Rotel to directly respond to specific questions

Agreed... the 1066 is on my short list for upgrading, but it's only hanging on by a thread... why is there not a simple, definitive description of the audio paths, so one can make an informed choice?... to stay at the 1066 price point, I might even opt to let the multichannel-in go through a ADC-DAC conversion if I could be convinced of acceptable sound... but I need a clear picture of what my options are first.

Furthermore, it seems we are all trying way too hard to force hi-res multichannel to work perfectly as is, with analog outs, when what really should be happening is a DIGITAL INTERFACE so that any bass management or other sound-shaping can be handled within the optimum component for this purpose: the pre/pro... we shouldn't have to even consider an ICBM; just another box and set of cables in the path.

Which is why the 1098 looks to be a disappointment, feature-wise... I don't detect any ports available for even a future digital path... I'd rather see all audio issues resolved in these otherwise cool Rotel products, even if it meant using a separate synched video router... that little monitor on the 1098 does nothing for me, except make me think "RF noise".

[AlvaroD]

Maybe to avoid some confusion, the results I got from my testings are with the European 1066 model which is different than north american one and firmware version 1.49.

Here's a brief summary for the European 1066 :

2 channels analog bypass mode and 2 channels digital source, stereo mode

You can choose between bass-doubling or not. Simply setup the sub level for "stereo mode" in "sub level" menu. Put "OFF" to disable bass-doubling completely. This will be effective in both 2 channel analog bypass and digital source stereo mode, but will not affect other surround modes like Dolby Digital or DTS.
What you get is a pure analog 2 channels preamp without any form of processing.

Multi-channel input

There's no indication, whatsoever, of any form of bass-redirection from the mains to the sub, thus there's no bass-doubling. In fact, even if you wanted to, you would not be able to do bass-doubling, the settings on the menu have no effects at all. This multi-channel input appears to be a pure 6.1 analog bypass without any form of processing.

[Dre J]

AlvaroD,

It is fact that your unit is different from the US units. I have proof that the units and the multi channel inputs do as I have stated in my bass management reports. Please make sure you mention that the US units are in fact different from your unit with regard to the Multichannel inputs.

If you don't, it will really confuse people even more.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[AlvaroD]

Right Dre J, since this is now a fact, I've edited my post to avoid any possible confusion

[Dre J]

Thanks!




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Mark_C.]

And what about the Asian versions of the 1066?

Don't you people see my point! This thing has been debated into the ground, doing nothing but blurring the facts. Do we have proof that there is difference between U.S. and European 1066s in how bass management is applied? Or are we simply assuming, without any documentation?

Has anyone confirmed this with Rotel?

What about the Sri Lankan version?

[Mark_C.]

From the startling lack of response to my question, I guess it's safe to say that no one has confirmed anything about whether the 1066's bass management differs between the U.S. and European versions. Just another case of assumptions tranformed into internet "facts'' I guess.

[Andrew Pratt]

Mark as far as I know there is only one version of the the Rotel products for all markets so I would assume that the BM issues are universal

[AlvaroD]

I guess we could just repeat the test I did and share results to see if there's any difference.

It's a very simple test :
just plug an analog stereo source to the main channel's multi-input, turn off your main amps, leave the sub on, push the 1066's volume to the max and see if anything is coming out of the sub.

[Dre J]

Mark_C,

Before you bark, I'd suggest you do a little more research. Fortunately, I don't have to answer to you.

FYI, if you check the site you will find a technical manual for the RSP-1066. That manual does not have the same PCBs that my unit has. I'm not going to spell it out for you. Therefore, I'll leave it at that.

The units have two different versions now, Low and High-bandwidth component video boards. Did you think these are the only boards that may be different?

Furthermore, I have been in contact with Rotel and they are aware of the bass management issues that I've taken my own personal time to verify and categorize for fellow RSP-1066 owners. I have also put together a list of workarounds to help owners enjoy their units to the fullest potential.

Soon, users will receive from me a set of instructions for disabling the multi-channel input's bass doubling.

Nevertheless, since you believe it's an "internet rumor", Maybe I should keep it all to myself.

Nah, the members of Club Rotel deserve better.




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Mark_C.]

Dre:

I refer you to Andrew's post above. Sheesh!

[Andrew Pratt]

Dre's correct in that there are two different flavors of the Rotel 1055 and 1066 in that they changed some of the video chips several months ago to allow those models to pass HDTV. As far as I know there wasn't anything changed on the audio side though so the BM issues should be universal. I know for sure that the firmwares are universal so IMO that leads me to believe these machines are the same worldwide

[Dre J]

Andrew,

Remember, the Multi-channel input is not under the control of the Firmware. Therefore, it is possible to have different PCBs for the multi-channel input.

The fact that the technical manual has a different PCB for the multi-channel input alerts me that it is more than possible.

AlvaroD's results prove that it's also more than possible.

Dre




My little corner of the world

"ILL-PLEX 007.1"

[Andrew Pratt]

Good point.

[JKohn]

I tend to agree with Dre. I remember way back when we first discovered bass-doubling on the 1066, I performed exactly the test that Alvaro describes (2-channels into the multi-input) and confirmed the bass doubling. At the same time another poster (Legairre?) said that they could not reproduce the bass doubling.

Makes me think that maybe the very first batch of 1066's didn't have this "feature", and Rotel then added it based on feedback from the manufacturers.

FYI, my 1066 wasn't from the first batch, it has the DD-EX logo on it. Alvaro, how about yours?




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[AlvaroD]

Mine has the EX logo too but I believe it was one of the first Silver model to reach Europe, I bought it on July 2002.

[Legairre]

At the same time another poster (Legairre?) said that they could not reproduce the bass doubling.

Honestly I don't remember if it was me or not. It was so long ago. I got my silver 1066 on May 25th. It was from the first batch of silver 1066s my dealer received and it has the DD-EX logo.




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[mazuly]

I just got of the phone with Rotel's VP and we had a long pleasant chat about bass management and rotels position. I think its safe to say that Rotel does care very much about what we have to say and is genuinely interested in providing us with a product that works as it should and conforms to standards set by the industry. Part of the problem is that the standards don't always seem to fit with trends in the industry. One example I'm thinking of here is the 5 full range speakers for DVD-A and SACD. Most of us don't have what we typically think of as being full range speakers in all five positions yet this is what the DVD-A and SACD authors assume. The question is what is Rotel supposed to do about it? They can build a product that conforms to those standards but people will (have) complained that there's no bass coming from their sub since they own small bookshelf speakers. To "fix" that Rotel added a bass redirect to the analog inputs where part of the low bass (~80hz) is sent to the sub and part to the mains...now this isn't double bass at this point since its not split at 100 percent signal strenght but split so that it sums back up to 100 percent. If you don't want that to occur simply set your sub to off. Rotel is looking into the Yes/Max issue and should be getting back to me with their findings soon.

I know there's a lot of you that are frustrated with the situation but please know that Rotel is listening to our concerns and will do what they can to make the products we purchased work as they should.

Hi,

I have a question about this post from Andrew and was wondering if anybody can help me.

My setup is the following:
RSP-1066 Setup:
Firmware: 2.22
All speakers set to large
Sub set to no
I do not have a sub

RDV-1080 Setup:
Speakers set to large
Sub set to no

With above setup, does it mean that I will get only half of the bass with the DVD-Audio?

Thanks for your help guys.

Maziar

[Entice]

So...

for the definitive answer....

Do some 1066's NOT experience Bass Doubling (or is that management)?

Has someone been able to verify, and I mean VERIFY if there is a correlation to units experiencing bass dpubling, and those (possibly) not experiencing Bass Doubling and units with 200MHz Video?

I guess this may mean that Bass Mgt on more recent units may have been disabled, if they have PCB changes (as someone has pointe out).

How many chiefs...how many Indians???

Me..I'm just a plain Indian tying to get a simple answer....

[Chris3G]

So...

for the definitive answer....

Do some 1066's NOT experience Bass Doubling (or is that management)?

Has someone been able to verify, and I mean VERIFY if there is a correlation to units experiencing bass dpubling, and those (possibly) not experiencing Bass Doubling and units with 200MHz Video?

I guess this may mean that Bass Mgt on more recent units may have been disabled, if they have PCB changes (as someone has pointe out).

How many chiefs...how many Indians???

Me..I'm just a plain Indian tying to get a simple answer....

I have a 200mhz 1006 (going by the serial # cutoff posted in that thread) and my unit does double bass on the multi inputs. Tested by turning off my main amps, and playing a stereo source through the multi-channel inputs.

[JKohn]

Chris,

Is your 1066 black or silver. I know, it seems unlikely to matter, and maybe I'm grasping at straws, but Alvaro and Legairre both mentioned that they have silver 1066's, while mine is black.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[Chris3G]

Chris,

Is your 1066 black or silver. I know, it seems unlikely to matter, and maybe I'm grasping at straws, but Alvaro and Legairre both mentioned that they have silver 1066's, while mine is black.

My 1066 is silver.