Bass Management...what's a person to do?

[AlvaroD]

Alvaro,

OK, so this means any 5.1 multichannel input (SACD or DVD-A) that actually has .1 or LFE content material will not be able to ouput that source content through the .1 or sub output channel, correct?

That's not what I was thinking of. I think there's a small hope (tiny one ?) that the setting only applies to the bass being digitized and that the sub multi-input, as it remains in the analog domain all the way, just passes through the sub pre-out.

That's just a big guess of course, that's why I wondered if somebody had tested it yet.

Sounds to me like a poor band-aid for the original problem that still exists, because this fix still doesn't correct the problem for 2-channel sources.

It does fix the problem for 2 channel sources, you can set sub level to "OFF" for stereo mode and you get no bass-doubling at all, just plain clean stereo.

The only question that remains is "what does it do for multi-channel input ?". If I had a DVD-audio or SACD player I would have done the test already, but I don't have one of these. They are on my buying shortlist though

[Bruce]

Alvaro,

It does fix the problem for 2 channel sources, you can set sub level to "OFF" for stereo mode and you get no bass-doubling at all, just plain clean stereo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought stereo-mode and 2-channel bypass were two distinctly different source settings.

Stereo-mode is a digital input of PCM source signal which does allow you to turn the sub off with the sub=No setting or set the sub level to "MIN" or "OFF" depending on software version.

2-channel analog bypass is an analog input signal -- with different input connectors than the 5.1 analog bypass -- that will not be affected by the sub settings for 5.1 analog inputs or the stereo-mode sub settings.

You might want to check on that.




Bruce
____________________________________________

[AlvaroD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought stereo-mode and 2-channel bypass were two distinctly different source settings.

Not really. Stereo mode, in the 1066, is defined by using only the L/R channels and the sub for bass-redirection or bass-doubling.

When you select a digital source (CD-PCM for instance) and set stereo mode, the raw PCM is sent to high-pass/low-pass filter and then to the DACs without any DSP processing of any kind. If your mains are declared as large, then the PCM is sent to the DACs and a copy of the signal is sent to the low-pass filtering for bass-doubling.

When you select an analog source and set the same stereo mode, the source is passed to the pre-outs in the analog domain (with a 95 Khz bandwidth) and a copy of the source is sent to the ADC for bass-processing, the output of low-pass filtering goes to the sub output.

There's no such thing as a "analog bypass mode" or "direct mode" button on the 1066, when your source is analog and you select stereo mode, you are in analog bypass.

Stereo-mode is a digital input of PCM source signal which does allow you to turn the sub off with the sub=No setting or set the sub level to "MIN" or "OFF" depending on software version.

2-channel analog bypass is an analog input signal -- with different input connectors than the 5.1 analog bypass -- that will not be affected by the sub settings for 5.1 analog inputs or the stereo-mode sub settings.

The sub level setting for stereo mode (in the SUB SETUP menu) has always been active for digital sources and analog sources (analog bypass). Until the 1.48 firmware, the problem was that we couln't completely turn off the sub, the min setting was around -10 dB.

Since the 1.48 and up, we have the option to turn off the sub for each surround mode, including stereo (both PCM and analog sources).

You might want to check on that.

I just did another test, just to be 100% sure : using an analog source (a VCR), setting the sub level to "OFF" for stereo mode, there's absolutely nothing coming out of the sub with 1066's volume set to max.

[JKohn]

To me though, any fix that involves turning the sub off isn't really a fix. Especially in the case of stereo, where I expect the 1066's bass management to kick in for stereo PCM sources (which I do use).

If it takes turning off the sub in order to get true passthrough, I guess that's better than having bass doubling. But my ultimate goal is to disable the bass doubling so that I can use external bass management for analog sources.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[AlvaroD]

Hi JKohn

I just don't understand what you mean

With the sub level thing , there is no bass-doubling and pure analog bypass for stereo sources.

The sub is not turned off for the other surround modes. Setting sub level to OFF in the "SUB SETUP" menu is totally equivalent to SUB=YES instead of MAX in the "SPEAKER SETUP" menu (admitting that worked). The manual states that, in stereo mode and with large mains, the setting SUB=YES wont send anything to the sub and that's exactely what "sub level = off for stereo" is doing.

To my point of vue, Rotel wasn't able to fix the SUB=YES/MAX but they found a workaround that does exactely the same thing, at least for stereo.

[John LaCava]

Forgive me for being skeptical, but I won't believe that there is not bass doubling on all channels untill we test it (can't do it myself because I'm not going to add a sub until I know if it is worth the investment, ie. if I can expect bass doubling forget it). The single stereo ADC is a compelling point, but at this time I really don't put much weight on what rotel tells us.

Cheers,
J

[AlvaroD]

Ok guys, I just tested the multi-input with the 1.49 firmware. My findings are really surprising !

As i said I don't have a 5.1 analog source, thus I used a regular DVD player with analog stereo out.

This is what I done :

Step 1 :

I connected the stereo out from the DVD to the Main L/R of multi-input. Shutted down my power amps, leaving just my 2 subwoofers connected. Then I push the 1066 volume up to the max. I should have heard something coming out of the sub because of bass-doubling but I didn't ! No matter what setting I use in sub level for multi-channel input or sub=yes/max in speaker setup : there's absolutely nothing coming out of the sub !!

In my previous testings for stereo mode, I use the same methodolgy and I could clearly hear something out the subs when playing with sub level setting for stereo in "sub level" menu. Thus my conclusion here : there's no more bass-doubling on the multi-channel input. In fact, now, you cannot do bass-doubling even if you wanted to !

Step 2:
I connected the left channel of DVD player to the Sub multi-input. I can hear the fainted sound and bass and the sub level for multi-input is now working, I can adjust the level and if I set sub=off, there's nothing coming out again.

My conclusions for the moment :

In stereo analog bypass : you can choose either bass-doubling or not.

In multi-input mode : there's no bass-doubling at all, just a straight 6 channels analog bypass and you cannot do bass-doubling even if you want to

[John LaCava]

This is good news indeed. This means that if Rotel fixes the sub yes/max bug then the 1066 will be fully functional as advertised and one hell on an awesome piece of kit!!!

I think you almost made me smile with this report. I have the v2 firmware, latest from andrew.

I will do a similar test as you, I'll just put one of my rears on the sub output.

Get back to you in a day or two guys.

Cheers,
J

[Entice]

Ok guys...you've just gone and done it again!
I'm so confused! Everty time i think I get a handle on whether the Bass management issue will apply to me, I read more on recent posts and get confused again!
So, I will appeal to higher wisdom here and pose what may seem to be a silly question.
I have no SACD. No DVDa. I have no intention of purchasing either , or utilising either in any foreseeable future. I do have DVD Video (doesn't have discrete 5 chanel output) .
SThe speakers I will be using are bookshelf minimonitors. They are matched to a sub. Matched in a 5.1 sence all round.
So, the main question is...will I have a bass management complaint? To throw some spice into the mix, I w adore 2 channel music. So much so that I may sometime chose to listen to it with, or without a sub. So, what do I do? how should I set things up in the menu? Is it easier to just switch the sub on/off directly from the sub.?

any advice would be greatly appreciated.

TIA!

[Nate]

Man, there are a lot of opinions on this... 8O

Will my 1055 have the option to turn the Sub "OFF" in the Sub Level if I haven't loaded the new software that Andrew has? I didn't know if that option is only on the beta versions...

I am still a little confused about this issue...If I have large mains and a sub, is there any way to change the settings so that I still use the sub without sending too much bass to the mains?

When you say, "part of the bass is sent to the sub, and part is sent to the mains", does that mean that bass from the small speakers are redirected to the sub AND the mains?

[AlvaroD]

entice,

If your speakers are all declared as small, which seems to be the case, then you will have absolutely no bass-management problems whatsoever with the 1066.

The bass-doubling issue only applies when you have main speakers declared as "large".

[JKohn]

AlvaroD,

I find your findings very intesting, because that is definitely not what I got when testing the multi-channel inputs on my 1066 with an older firmware. I guess I finally need to try to get around to getting hold of a cable and doing the upgrade.

BTW, in speaking Mike via email again he said he's working with the engineers right now to fix the Sub=Yes/Max bug.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[AlvaroD]

Man, there are a lot of opinions on this... 8O

Will my 1055 have the option to turn the Sub "OFF" in the Sub Level if I haven't loaded the new software that Andrew has? I didn't know if that option is only on the beta versions...

That option is up since V1.48. It is avalaible from Andrew's web site.

I am still a little confused about this issue...If I have large mains and a sub, is there any way to change the settings so that I still use the sub without sending too much bass to the mains?

If your goal is not to send too much bass to the mains, the best option is to declare them as "small". The 1066, like mostly all other pre/pro or receivers out there, will send the LFE track and the bass to large speakers AND to the sub. This not bass-doubling. Bass-doubling is sending bass from the large mains to the sub.

When you say, "part of the bass is sent to the sub, and part is sent to the mains", does that mean that bass from the small speakers are redirected to the sub AND the mains?

Yes, that's it and that's not the bass-doubling problem we are talking about for such a long time. This is the standard for Dolby Digital bass-management.

A quote from Dolby's FAQ at http://www.dolby.com/tech/co.br.0103.DDFAQ.html

A unique feature called Bass Management lets you route low bass sounds to those speakers in your system that are best able to reproduce them. For example, you might wish to route the LFE signals to the front left and right speakers, if they have full bass capabilities, or to a separate subwoofer. You can also redirect the surround channels’ low bass, and so continue to use the limited-bandwidth surround speakers you got for Dolby Surround Pro Logic playback. Or you could use small satellite speakers for the five main channels and route all bass to a subwoofer. You could even go so far as to add a subwoofer to each main channel

[AlvaroD]

BTW, in speaking Mike via email again he said he's working with the engineers right now to fix the Sub=Yes/Max bug.

That's very good news. We now know that it is possible to modify the bass-doubling issue just with firmware updates, thus there's no reason they won't be able to fix the whole thing afterall

[Bruce]

Finally it appears Rotel has bowed to it's customer base and fixed a piece of their 1066 firmware that was not working correctly, it's about time.

If everything works as Alvaro says, many who own tower main speakers (with response below 80Hz) will now be able to configure their 1066 units correctly for true analog bypass in 2-channel and multi-channel.

This is a good development.




Bruce
____________________________________________

[Nate]

I just looked at the settings for my 1055 and I have the option to turn the Sub to OFF in the Sub Level setting. But, i haven't uploaded anything into the receiver. I have the 2.2.2 version. Does this mean that Rotel added this feature to all new 1055s and 1066s?

So, even if your mains can reach below 40 hz, you should still list them as "small"?

[Danbry39]

Yes, something is moving in the right direction. I'd really like it if I loved Rotel enough to keep buying from them from now on. Love my 1066's sound and have appreciated all the efforts they've put forth in addressing other concerns users have had. Especially love the way they read and respond to this board.




Keith

[AlvaroD]

So, even if your mains can reach below 40 hz, you should still list them as "small"?

If your mains are capable of doing everything a sub can do, then you should set them as "large".

For stereo analog bypass mode, since you have the option to do bass-doubling or not, it's not an issue. Just choose the settings that sounds the best for you.

For multi-channel input, since I don't really know when Rotel did change the behavior, I just don't know, you'll have to do the same test as I did I guess.

[Kevin C Brown]

Has anyone else had a chance to confirm Alvaro's multichannel input findings with 1.49?

From Jeff's conversation with Rotel, it seemed that a firmware upgrade wasn't going to do it.

[JKohn]

I mentioned Alvaro's findings in another email to Mike, and he said as far as he knew 1.49 added the Off setting in the Sub Level menus, but didn't have any effect on the bass redirection since that's an analog function. So who knows...




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[petrolhead]

As I have been thinking about buying the RSP 1066 should I be worried about Bass Management Problems.

I wil use this 99% home cinema, DD, DTS and PL11. Does this probelm effect me or is just when using SACD, DVD Audio or 2 Channel Sterio. BTW whats LPCM?

Sorry if this has been covered, I have read some of the articles on the links but am a little confused.

Regards

Peter




______________________________
better to go in a blaze of glory than to fade away :evil:

[Andrew Pratt]

the bass "issues" are really only a concern for people using the analog inputs so in HT mode you're going to be fine.

[Entice]

Ok confused again!

Analogue inputs?

Does this mean that when you plug a 2 channel RCA lead from a CD player into the CD player input on the amp/pre-amp?

or does it mean when you place RCA's into the "multi-channel" input?

ie, in simple terms, when does it not function as one would hope it to function?

[Chris D]

Alvaro- Actually, many people suggest that all speakers in a system be sent to "small", in order to let the subwoofer do its job of reproducing true bass. (I'm sure you already know this) If my mains were capable of doing everything a sub could do, I wouldn't need a sub!




CHRIS
Luke: "Hey, I'm not such a bad pilot myself, you know"

[mazuly]

Ok confused again!

Analogue inputs?

Does this mean that when you plug a 2 channel RCA lead from a CD player into the CD player input on the amp/pre-amp?

or does it mean when you place RCA's into the "multi-channel" input?

ie, in simple terms, when does it not function as one would hope it to function?

From what I read so far, it only happens when you connect the analog 5.1 from your DVD player to the analog 5.1 multi input. Another word, it happens when the analog sub output is connected to the sub input of the multi in. When you connect a CD player to the analog input for the CD, I don't think the sub will work, does it?

You shouldn't worry about this if your DVD player does not have an analog 5.1 output.


I hope this helped,
Maziar

PS Please somebody correct me if I am wrong.

[Kevin C Brown]

Check out the link I provide several posts back. Dre J's bass management report. There are a lot more things wrong with the BM on the 1066 than just the 5.1 analog inputs...

Digital is mostly OK. But there are problems with analog 2 channel bypass too.

[JKohn]

The problem with analog 2-channel is exactly the same as for the muilti-channel analog inputs. There is an additional problem with setting sub=yes, but that should be fixed in the near future. But I don't think the fix will have any effect on 2-channel analog bypass.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[mazuly]

OK, now I am confused as well. I read the bass management report and I thought I had if figured out, but I guess not.

Question: Would the sub and/or multichannel speaker setting, effect the analog input of the 1066? I thought that if for example you connect to the CD analog input at the back of 1066, you would automatically bypass the sub and just use the main speakers without it. Can somebody clarify this for me please?

Thanks for your help,
Maziar

[wng]

The speaker setup in the 1066 is globally-oriented, so it affects all inputs except the multichannel input. The CD input doesn't automatically bypass the sub or the 1066's processor (we can choose to use surround-sound processing on the input). If main speakers are set as Small, the Sub setting automatically switches to Yes. If main speakers are set as Large, we can set the Sub as Yes, No, or Max.

[mazuly]

The speaker setup in the 1066 is globally-oriented, so it affects all inputs except the multichannel input. The CD input doesn't automatically bypass the sub or the 1066's processor (we can choose to use surround-sound processing on the input). If main speakers are set as Small, the Sub setting automatically switches to Yes. If main speakers are set as Large, we can set the Sub as Yes, No, or Max.

Well in this case, entice, please disregard my last post. I think from now on I will only read these posts to stop making wrong assumptions and posts ops: . ALso I think I will read the 1066 manual again.

Thanks for the clarifications wng.
Maziar

[JKohn]

The CD input doesn't automatically bypass the sub or the 1066's processor (we can choose to use surround-sound processing on the input). If main speakers are set as Small, the Sub setting automatically switches to Yes. If main speakers are set as Large, we can set the Sub as Yes, No, or Max.

But in the case of 2-channel analog (ie CD input), if you select Stereo as the format, you're actually in analog bypass mode, so bass management settings in the menu are ignored; your mains will always get the full-range signal and the sub (if present) will get the doubled bass.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[wng]

No problem, mazuly. Don't discourage yourself from posting. We're all here to just try and help each other.

[JKohn]

The CD input doesn't automatically bypass the sub or the 1066's processor (we can choose to use surround-sound processing on the input). If main speakers are set as Small, the Sub setting automatically switches to Yes. If main speakers are set as Large, we can set the Sub as Yes, No, or Max.

But in the case of 2-channel analog (ie CD input), if you select Stereo as the format, you're actually in analog bypass mode, so bass management settings in the menu are ignored; your mains will always get the full-range signal and the sub (if present) will get the doubled bass.




Jeff Kohn

http://home.houston.rr.com/jeffkohn

[wng]

But in the case of 2-channel analog (ie CD input), if you select Stereo as the format, you're actually in analog bypass mode, so bass management settings in the menu are ignored; your mains will always get the full-range signal and the sub (if present) will get the doubled bass.

Wouldn't this "penalize" owners of mini-monitor front speakers with a sub (or subs) who would want bass management for stereo? If one had fronts that go down to only 60 Hz, one would likely want their subwoofer to handle the bass below that, but analog bypass means the crossover would be bypassed in addition to the speaker settings. They would need to use the crossover on their subs?

[Entice]

OK, so based on the past few posts, I'll make the following assumptions. Now please correct me if I am wrong in anyway.

ASSUMING that one has 5 speakers classifed as "small". There will be influences made in all media, that uses RCA inputs to the processor. Now, If, when listening to a 2 channel CD, the front 2 channels are selected as "small" then I assume that the bass will be redirected to the sub, and there will not be any bass summing.
If a sub was not desired, then the 2 front channels should be set to LARGE and the sub switched to NO / Or manually switched off.

The problems I assume, yet again, would only arise in media where a LFE track is included. Ie, in 5.1 recordings (DD, DTS?), whereby the sub would have to handle not only its own LFE track, but would also have a MATRIXED LFE track included by the processor. thereby doubling the bass that is intended to reach the sub. I assume, yet again, that this would only occur if the Multi inputs (especially the LFE input) were being utilised.

Have I got this right or am I going bananas?

[Legairre]

But in the case of 2-channel analog (ie CD input), if you select Stereo as the format, you're actually in analog bypass mode, so bass management settings in the menu are ignored; your mains will always get the full-range signal and the sub (if present) will get the doubled bass.

My Denon 3300 seems to work the same way the 1066 does. The Denon had three setting that worked like the 1066, but used different names. Below are the three settings and below them are what seems to me like the equivalent ways of using the 1066.


Denon:
1. DIRECT MODE: uses DACS in CD player, bypassed all digital processing and sent a full range signal to the mains no matter if you set the mains to large or small and completely disabled the subwoofer.

2. STEREO MODE ANALOG: Uses DACS in CD player, but you can turn the subwoofer on(double bass and full range signal to the mains)) or off(full range signal to the mains) no matter what the speaker setting was(small or large).

3. STEREO MODE DIGITAL: Uses DACS in the Denon receiver. You can turn the subwoofer on(sends bass below fixed 80HZ crossover to the sub) or off(full range signal to the mains no matter what the speaker setting was small or large).


1066
1. STEREO MODE using ANALOG CD INPUT with SUB=NO: This seems to be equivalent to the Denon's DIRECT MODE.

2. STEREO MODE using ANALOG CD INPUT with SUB=YES: This seems to be equivalent to the Denon's STEREO MODE ANALOG.


I haven't tried this one yet so you guys will have to tell me if I'm totally wrong about this one. I'm guessing the 1066 works this way since all BM processing seems to be in the digital world. I'll try it tomorrow with the optical out of my CD player.

3. STEREO MODE using DIGITAL INPUT: This seems to be equivalent to the Denon's STEREO MODE DIGITAL. Uses 1066 DACS, SUB can be YES or NO, crossover can be adjusted from 40hz -120hz, and 1066 recognizes the "large or "small" settings.


OK am I even close here? Someone with more 1066 BM experiance help me out here.




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[Legairre]

I just tried the using the 1066's digital input going from my CD player's optical out. I tried this with the subs volume knob turned all the way down. Changing the crossover on the 1066 definately changed the amount of bass going to my mains which were set as small. When I turned the subs volume knob back up I could tell that the sub was getting more or less bass depending on whether I increased or decreased the the 1066's crossover. It seemd that the crossover was affecting the amount of bass the mains and sub received.

I then disconnected the optical cable from the 1066 and connected my analog cables using the 1066's CD input. I turned the subs volume knob all the way down and as I increased and decreased the 1066's crossover I couldn't tell any different in the bass my mains were receiving set as small. They seemed to be getting a full signal. Then I turned the subs volume knob back up and as I increased and decreased the 1066's crossover the subs bass seemed to be affected, but the mains still received the same full signal. It seems like the crossover affects the amount of bass the subs gets, but has no affect on the mains.

During all of this I left the mains set as small and the sub=ON. So it seems that if you have small speakers and don't want a full signal going to your mains you need to use the digital input on the 1066 and still get the benefit of your sub using the 1066's crossover.




"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"
Radden Home Theater

[Chris3G]

I'm finally just giving in and getting an outlaw ICBM. I really didnt want another six cables behind the rack but it fixes all of these issues and i just won't have to worry about it any longer. Especially for SACD and 2-channel analog with small main speakers, it's the only way to get unprocessed playback with a true analog crossover to the sub.

[wng]

Thanks, Legairre. Based on your information, this is what I see then for the stereo format:

For the PCM input, you will get full, digital bass management. Makes sense since the input signal is digital.

For the CD input, the mains get an analog bypass, full-range signal, like JKohn said. The 1066 copies the analog signal from the CD input, ADCs it for digital bass management, DACs again using its internal DAC, and outputs this bass-managed signal to the subwoofer. This explains why the crossover still works.

Adding to what Legairre said, if you have a dedicated CD player that is connected to the CD input, and you have main speakers considered not full-range and therefore use a subwoofer, since you can't bass-manage the signal for the mains, you will need to adjust the crossover to near the speakers' -6dB rating to minimize bass doubling and maximize a smooth low-freq response.

I did a test with the CD input myself. I set the sub as Yes (on) but disconnected the subwoofer's power. I then compared the signal in my mains with the Large and Small settings. I couldn't tell a difference in the bass response. JKohn is right.

Especially for SACD and 2-channel analog with small main speakers, it's the only way to get unprocessed playback with a true analog crossover to the sub.

For 2-ch analog, unfortunately, you're right. For SACD playback through the 1066's multichannel input, the signal is not digitally processed -- the multi input is a true analog bypass. BUT, Rotel did put in an analog 80- or 100-Hz crossover in the signal path (can't remember which freq is correct) that routes bass from the full-range signals going to the L, C, R, SL, and SR channels to the subwoofer.

[Chris3G]

For 2-ch analog, unfortunately, you're right. For SACD playback through the 1066's multichannel input, the signal is not digitally processed -- the multi input is a true analog bypass. BUT, Rotel did put in an analog 80- or 100-Hz crossover in the signal path (can't remember which freq is correct) that routes bass from the full-range signals going to the L, C, R, SL, and SR channels to the subwoofer.

oops, yes that's true, what i meant in the case of the multi-channel inputs was without bass doubling.

[Bruce]

wng and Chris,

Are you sure there is an analog xover on the 1066 multichannel outputs? I don't think so, but it's just IMO. I've never seen specs on an analog xover except for the Outlaw 950.

I can't say for sure as I've never opened up a 1066 to look at the PCB.

IIRC, the 1066 multichannel inputs (6) were clear analog pass-thru, except for the multi-channel L&R mains and sub which use the same input signal copy scheme as 2-channel; i.e. copy of L&R mains to -->ADC to -->digital bass management @80Hz to -->DAC to -->sub. This was done (IMO) because they expected many to have small L&R main speakers.




Bruce
____________________________________________

[Chris3G]

wng and Chris,

Are you sure there is an analog xover on the 1066 multichannel outputs? I don't think so, but it's just IMO. I've never seen specs on an analog xover except for the Outlaw 950.

I can't say for sure as I've never opened up a 1066 to look at the PCB.

IIRC, the 1066 multichannel inputs (6) were clear analog pass-thru, except for the multi-channel L&R mains and sub which use the same input signal copy scheme as 2-channel; i.e. copy of L&R mains to -->ADC to -->digital bass management @80Hz to -->DAC to -->sub. This was done (IMO) because they expected many to have small L&R main speakers.

Nope i'm not sure, just going on what's been reported. One difference though is that the multi-channel inputs do not respond to the crossover settings like the 2 channel inputs. If you set your crossover to 40 hz, and use the analog 2 channel inputs, you will get double bass from your sub at 40hz and under. The multi inputs seem to be fixed at 100hz (or 120hz?). This would lead me to believe that it is not using the same digital crossover as the 2 channel inputs?

[wng]

wng and Chris,
Are you sure there is an analog xover on the 1066 multichannel outputs? I don't think so, but it's just IMO. I've never seen specs on an analog xover except for the Outlaw 950.

I can't say for sure as I've never opened up a 1066 to look at the PCB.

IIRC, the 1066 multichannel inputs (6) were clear analog pass-thru, except for the multi-channel L&R mains and sub which use the same input signal copy scheme as 2-channel; i.e. copy of L&R mains to -->ADC to -->digital bass management @80Hz to -->DAC to -->sub. This was done (IMO) because they expected many to have small L&R main speakers.

Also going by what's been reported. But why would Rotel not copy the signals for the 3 other channels as well? It's safe to say there are more people with small surround speakers than there are those with small mains. Bass in the surround speakers would be lost in the scheme you suggest. Also, if it was the same digital scheme as for analog stereo, why would Rotel not give us the ability to control the crossover rather than locking it at wherever it is at, as reported?

Don't get me wrong. I wish that there was a 5-ch digital copying and processing scheme for the multi input, if nothing else. At least, then, we would be able to limit the bass doubling with the digital crossover.

[Entice]

So.. if what u guys say is true, then perhaps one way to avoid bass management in 2 ch cd analogue is to use the multi inputs. Is this correct?

There must be a way to be able to receive a signal to the mains (eg, set as small) and a signal to the sub, with no overlap between the two.

Am I going nuts or are we just talking in circles?

[Chris3G]

So.. if what u guys say is true, then perhaps one way to avoid bass management in 2 ch cd analogue is to use the multi inputs. Is this correct?

There must be a way to be able to receive a signal to the mains (eg, set as small) and a signal to the sub, with no overlap between the two.

Am I going nuts or are we just talking in circles?

There is no way to receive an analog signal and cross it over to a sub with no bass doubling, without the use of an external analog crossover. The only way for the rotel to do this is to have the analog signal digitized by the 1066 and then to apply the digital crossover. This really isn't a problem specific to the 1066, as most receiver/processors do not have built in analog crossovers.

So basically, if you have small mains and a sub, and you want to use them both for pure 2 channel analog and no bass doubling, you're going to need to buy an external analog crossover.