Problems with 1069 after update v1.22 (UPDATED!)

[TommyV]

I updated the FW and had to redo my setup. Now when I am sending LPCM via HDMI using the sub setup test tones from Avia, the sub level for the rear speakers is like way lower than that front. Also the "MULTICHANNEL" setting in the sub setup menu seems to have no effect on the level as it did before for MPCM. I went from main 1.18 to 1.21. I think I may want to roll back to 1.18 or maybe try 1.20 as well.

Anyone have to old hex files???

Update 2/21/2010: Rotel released v1.22 this month but it did not address all the issues with HDMI Multi PCM audio. I have contacted Rotel and was told they will work on it further. For now though I suggest to go ahead and upgrade to v1.22 because there are sonic improvements over the previous version for HDMI audio. Be sure to upgrade your scaler to v1.48 FIRST.

I will keep this thread updated.

[TommyV]

I have searched high and low. Someone has to have 1.18. Need help!

[TommyV]

Thank you Kevin & Eric for all your help!

Well the news is not good. I am pretty thorough in my setup procedures. I remember when I first got the 1069, I checked Bass levels using my Avia DVD test tones with the player decoding and sending as PCM via HDMI. The levels were good and I was able to boost them in the sub setup menu under "MULTI CHANNEL".

Well now that I decided to update to main v1.22 it has completely screwed the bass up via HDMI LPCM. I was even able to get a copy of v1.18 from Kevin (much thanks) and that did not even fix it. Bass is exactly the same.

To detail the problem bass is way low with no way to turn it up for decoded material on HDMI. Regular DD or DTS bitstream sounds perfect. I could compensate for that by turning down bass levels for the other modes but there is another MAJOR problem. None of the bass from the rear channels is being sent to the sub. I confirmed this with both Avia and DVE calibration discs. For example when using the bass management 20-150Hz sweep test on DVE, the sub is silent and I hear nothing until about 80-90 Hz from the speaker. For Front L,R, and Center, the sub is heard clearly (though level is low) from about 30Hz until about 85Hz.

I had a long conversation with Eric on the phone and we ran through all the possibilities. He most certainly knows his stuff but having owned the 1057 before this I had pretty much already tried everything so we were both stumped. So now I will be contacting B&W USA about this issue.

The good news is I just bought a Pioneer Elite BDP-23FD. It was on sale and I was questioning whether I even should get it (already had the Panasonic BD-60). Now I am thanking the audio gods I did. I hooked it up old school mult channel analog and damn this thing sounds AMAZING!! The setup menu is incredible. The best I have ever seen in a player. You can dial in distances in 1 inch increments! I was just wishing Rotel had .5 ft increments but damn. With the Burr Brown DACs and whatever other magic they got going on in there I am not even missing HDMI at the moment (though I want it to work right).

This is the best I have ever heard multi analogs sound. Of course I never hooked them to my 1069 but I was all about it on my 1057 and had many players (XA1,XA2, Denon 2910, Sharp BD20) all using a Zektor multi switch. So basically if looking for a good BD player and have not upgraded to HDMI I highly recommend the 23FD.

[Opus007]

Tommy,
Sorry to hear of your situation.Bummer.One thing I have noticed with my 1069 is that when using my ps3 and pcm for bluray and over hdmi (hd-audio)the bass output to my subs is not the same.I have the bass set to max in the multi setup.
Last night I was watching the bluray Transfomers(Revenge of the Fallen) and had the ps3 set to bitsteam for hdmi as I forgot to set it to pcm and the first thing I noticed was the power of the bass.I then looked at the front of the 1069 and it was displaying DTS. I was amazed at how much more bass was being sent to my 2 subs.I stoped the the disk and reset the ps3 to pcm and replayed the disk and the bass going to my subs was reduced tremendously.
I wish the ps3 had multi channel outputs as I would like to see if bass is reduced by using pcm over the multi channel inputs.I must say I did not notice a vast loss of effects by sending bitstream over hdmi and letting the 1069 decode it as DTS.What I did notice is that not only was there more bass to my subs but there seemed to be a more fuller bass to all speakers.Everything crossed over at 80.
With any other material as in Dolby Digital 5.1 the bass is full.It is only with pcm over hdmi to the 1069 that I lose a lot of bass.Turning the bass way up does not really compensate for it.
This probably has no bearing on your problem.I may have something misconfiguered in the ps3 but what it would be I do not know.I also noticed that bitsteaming hd-audio over hdmi that the volume is a lot higher to where I have to turn the 1069 down.Sort of wierd.Hope you get yours all figuered out soon.
Also would you say it is a day night difference from using the multi inputs than over hdmi?

[TommyV]

YES! Night and day! This Pioneer Elite 23FD truly got their analog output and speaker setup down. I have had MANY players using analog outputs and they either sound so, so or they are missing essential setup options for the analogs.

Not with the 23! They have high end analog components as well as the best speaker setup menu I have ever seen. Even better than the Rotel! To top it off it all adds up too cause it sounds damn goooood :T The proof is in the sound, not just a spec sheet.

I just wish it had PLII modes for 2 ch and I would be set but no biggie really. I can just use the HTPC. If you don't care about SACD/DVD Audio (which I am starting not to) then I would get this over the Oppo 83 for analog. Especially if you have a Pioneer plasma.

[Opus007]

Well I was considering the Oppo and will be going over to friends house this week to see it in action.All things considered I really love the ps3 for 2 reasons.One the bluray playback and two the way it upconverts dvd's.But it does lack multi channel outs and a good analog stereo out inputs.
How does the Pioneer Elite 23FD do for video playback of bluray and upconverting dvd's?Is the audio section anygood for cd playback?

[TommyV]

Yes and Yes. It has much better DVD video processing than the PS3. It is more in like with the HQV Reon but better plus you can do full video calibration including gamma curves in the player!

CD performance is excellent as well, it could be used as your CD player easily. Only thing is you would have to change a setting to get full range from the fronts as there are no fixed 2ch outputs like the previous gen Pioneers BDP51/05s that used the Wolfson DACs. I have a 51 in my 2ch analog setup and I use it as a dedicated CD player as well as for DVD/BD.

People have compared the 51/05 CD performance to other high end dedicated CD players costing MANY times more. The 23FD is ALMOST as good as the 51 for 2ch analog. For multichannel use though, hands down the 23FD wins plus it is faster (Closer to the Oppo) and has better error correction for rental discs.

If you plan on getting an Oppo forget the regular 83 and get the SE version to for analog performance like the 23FD. I got mine for an amazing price so I was lucky. I am considering just putting my tiny SACD/DVD Audio collection in storage for now at least until I hear back from B&W tech support about the bass issues with HDMI MPCM.

[Opus007]

The pioneer would be cheaper to purchase than the oppo se.So I am thinking about the Pioneer.I think my dealer has the pioneer on display but am not sure.If so they will let me take it home and test drive.
Not to sound like a noob but what is mpcm?I have not heard of that.

[TommyV]

Short for Multi Channel PCM. To distinguish it from 2 ch PCM. PCM is just short for LPCM. So MPCM lets one know you are referring to Multi Channel PCM which SPDIF does not support.

If you don't care about the SACDs/DVD-As go for the Pioneer Elite 23FD. It has exceeded my very stringent expectations (with current firmware of course).

Edit: Look we have the exact same number of posts :rofl:

[Opus007]

Short for Multi Channel PCM. To distinguish it from 2 ch PCM. PCM is just short for LPCM. So MPCM lets one know you are referring to Multi Channel PCM which SPDIF does not support.

If you don't care about the SACDs/DVD-As go for the Pioneer Elite 23FD. It has exceeded my very stringent expectations (with current firmware of course).

Edit: Look we have the exact same number of posts :rofl:

Thanks for the info...and no sacd /dvd-a is not a concern.I did some researching on the Pioneer Elite BDP-23FD and could not find a bad thing about it.there is a thread on another forum about the oppo bdp-83 vs the Pioneer Elite BDP-23FD and a lot have gone with the Pioneer Elite BDP-23FD over the Oppo.And most say exactly what you have said here about it.So thanks.........Am I one post up on you now?Ha,Ha....

[TommyV]

Another Update!

Well after working with tech support for a bit, they were actually able to recreate to issue with their test unit. So I may have found a bug affecting ALL 1069 owners. I was told that they would be forwarding the issue to Rotel (Japan?) so now we can just hope for a fix for this some time in the near future.

For now I am rocking out with the multi analog inputs and my Pio Elite BDP-23FD. Will keep yall updated!

[TommyV]

Does anyone have a guess as to how long a software fix like this might take? Weeks? Months? A Year? I know it would be pure speculation but I have not followed Rotel's software fix history in the past so I was hoping some of the more experienced members might be able to give me a clue.

[PSUfan]

That Pioneer Elite 23 is sweet. I added to my setup as well about 3 months ago and hooked in up via the analog. Wow! The sound is impressive!

[hifiguymi]

Does anyone have a guess as to how long a software fix like this might take? Weeks? Months? A Year? I know it would be pure speculation but I have not followed Rotel's software fix history in the past so I was hoping some of the more experienced members might be able to give me a clue.

My guess is months. Tech support here in the states have to get the info to Japan and to the software engineers, they have to solve the issue and test it. After that it will be available and I don't see that happening in weeks.

Eric

[TommyV]

That is kind of what I was thinking and hoping. Assuming they DO fix the problem, it would be 2-3 months before I would see any kind of software update.

Thanks Eric!

[Kevin D]

For what it's worth, they have pulled 1.22 from the 1069's software update page.

Kevin D.

[TommyV]

Interesting. It really did seem to change the sound of HDMI sources for BD, SACD/DVD-A and any MPCM. I immediately noticed it. Rolling back to v1.18 did not fix it so maybe v1.22 actually does something that cannot be fixed by rolling back the software. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks Kevin!

[Opus007]

Tommy.
Last night while listrening to music I muted my 1069 and could hear music still coming from my speakers although it was really low but still could just barely hear the music.So my 1069 is not completly muting the volume.When I muted the 1069 it was turned up rather loud.Could you check on your 1069 and see if yours also does this.You may have to put your ear up to the speakers to hear it.I am not sure this is a problem as it does not seem to affect anything.I would think though that when muted there should nothing being sent to my amp.
Thanks.

[TommyV]

Got new software from Rotel!

Wow that was fast! I am beginning to think I was imagining there ever was a v1.22. Am I losing it? It may have been v1.21 I was referring to the whole time. Anyway I was emailed a new file (called 1.22) and was asked to test it out and see if it fixed things. As far as I can tell if definitely did! I am getting bass redirected to the sub from the rear speakers and also I am able to adjust the sub level for MPCM via HDMI. So all seems to be working as it should.

I have not done any listening tests just ran the audio setup disc, but I am very impressed by the level of customer support I received on this issue. I know some people have had some bad experiences but I think B&W is kinda bigger that some of these smaller internet only companies yet smaller than mass market ones like D&M group. I just had to get in touch with the right person.

I plan to compare analog vs HDMI now in various scenarios to see what I decide sounds best.

Opus: I turned my DirecTV up connected via toslink really loud and then muted it and put my ear next to the speaker and it was silent. I have not tried analog sources though. I think my Parasound stereo preamp does the same thing you are talking about where you can barely still hear the sound when muted but that is an all analog audio setup.

[Opus007]

Glad to see you got it fixed.I checked my software version and it is 1.8 for audio and have not tested to see if the bass from the rears are being redirected.Exactly how did you test it?
As far as the mute thing it does it on mine no matter what sorce I am listening to wheather it is bypassed,analog,or digital and on all speakers.May have to rewire as my wiring is a mess and maybe the inteconnects or speaker cables are picking up what ever source is being used from cables being layed on each other.Or may have to call Rotel next week.Volume on the 1069 has to be around 84 for me to hear it when muted.

[Opus007]

To detail the problem bass is way low with no way to turn it up for decoded material on HDMI. Regular DD or DTS bitstream sounds perfect. I could compensate for that by turning down bass levels for the other modes but there is another MAJOR problem. None of the bass from the rear channels is being sent to the sub. I confirmed this with both Avia and DVE calibration discs. For example when using the bass management 20-150Hz sweep test on DVE, the sub is silent and I hear nothing until about 80-90 Hz from the speaker. For Front L,R, and Center, the sub is heard clearly (though level is low) from about 30Hz until about 85Hz.



.

Seems I do not understand this at all so maybe someone can enlighten me.I tested the sub output via hdmi and mpcm with the subsetup set at max in the 1069 with my spl meter.I then tested it with the sub set to 0 in the subsetup for multichannel.Both levels where exactly the same so seems the max which is +10 is not working for me on multichannel via hdmi and letting the player do the decoding.
I have the DVE HD Basics bluray disk and ran the sweep tones you described above.Now this is what really confuses me.If I have my speakers all set to small and crossed over at 80hz would I not hear anything from any speaker until the test tone hit 80hz as that is the crossover?Wouldnt I hear the tone at the sub as 80 and below should be directed to the sub?Anyone want to give me some learnen here as it makes no sense to me.When I run the sweep on each individual speaker at about 30hz and up I can clearly hear the tone in that speaker.But shouldnt it be going to the sub only from 80hz down?Boy am I confused.

[TommyV]

Well it sounds similar to what I was experiencing except on the sweep test (20-150Hz) I would hear nothing from the sub until above 80Hz only on the two rear speakers. This test is meant for confirming that your bass management is working properly (sending everything below 80Hz to the sub and everything above to the speaker). I also was unable to boost the sub level in the sub setup menu or anywhere else which is needed for MPCM.

This new software they have made fixes these problems. It took some work to get the message to the right person but once I was in contact and he had confirmed the issue, they were all over it. So the new software is a major improvement for MPCM in the 1069.

[Opus007]

Well it sounds similar to what I was experiencing except on the sweep test (20-150Hz) I would hear nothing from the sub until above 80Hz only on the two rear speakers. This test is meant for confirming that your bass management is working properly (sending everything below 80Hz to the sub and everything above to the speaker). I also was unable to boost the sub level in the sub setup menu or anywhere else which is needed for MPCM.

This new software they have made fixes these problems. It took some work to get the message to the right person but once I was in contact and he had confirmed the issue, they were all over it. So the new software is a major improvement for MPCM in the 1069.

Looks like I will be contacting rotel next week as will not have time this week.Thanks Tommy.

[Kevin D]

Crossover settings are not brick walls. That's just the frequency at which the level of sound starts to go down. If it's a 12db per octave slope with a 80hz crossover, the sound is going to be 12db lower at 40hz and 24db lower at 20hz.

Since 12db down is still audible, it makes sense for you to hear things in the speaker at 30hz.

The test to make sure the bass management is working is that for each channel sweep, your sub should ALSO be making noise. All the way up to 320hz or so (24db down from 80hz)

Kevin D.

[TommyV]

Crossover settings are not brick walls. That's just the frequency at which the level of sound starts to go down. If it's a 12db per octave slope with a 80hz crossover, the sound is going to be 12db lower at 40hz and 24db lower at 20hz.

Since 12db down is still audible, it makes sense for you to hear things in the speaker at 30hz.

The test to make sure the bass management is working is that for each channel sweep, your sub should ALSO be making noise. All the way up to 320hz or so (24db down from 80hz)

Kevin D.

Yes this is true, the test is meant to hear your bass management in action for each individual channel. It is not a brick wall (to use kevin's term) but around 80Hz (if that is your setting) the majority of the tone should move from your sub gradually to your speaker.

When your sub is silent during the entire test, there is a major problem and that is what I was facing before this new software with the rear speakers.

[Opus007]

Crossover settings are not brick walls. That's just the frequency at which the level of sound starts to go down. If it's a 12db per octave slope with a 80hz crossover, the sound is going to be 12db lower at 40hz and 24db lower at 20hz.

Since 12db down is still audible, it makes sense for you to hear things in the speaker at 30hz.

The test to make sure the bass management is working is that for each channel sweep, your sub should ALSO be making noise. All the way up to 320hz or so (24db down from 80hz)

Kevin D.

Thanks Kevin for clarifing that for me as yes there is also noise coming from the subs starting at around 30hz and up.
The multichannel sub setup when set to max does not appear to be working though as I tested it with it set at 0 and max and no difference detected on my spl meter.
I am unable to do the sweep test Tommy did on my rears as when the sweeptest on my disk gets to the rears it also does all the speakers together instead of just the rears.It does do the sweep individually for the FL,C,FR.
To tell you the truth and since I only have 5 bluray disk I just thought that bluray did a terrible job with bass as it has never sounded right.I do get full impact though with dvd.

[TommyV]

If it means anything I was using the DVE DVD and decoding normal DD as well as the old Avia DVD which was regular DD. I do not have any BD setup discs but that should not really matter as long as the player is decoding it and sending as MPCM.

[Opus007]

If it means anything I was using the DVE DVD and decoding normal DD as well as the old Avia DVD which was regular DD. I do not have any BD setup discs but that should not really matter as long as the player is decoding it and sending as MPCM.

The front of the 1069 says "multi channel 48k" and I have the bluray player set to do pcm.Should the 1069 say mpcm?

[TommyV]

No haha that is just a short term I use. It will say MULTI CHANNEL and then the frequency, whether 48kHz or whatever your source material is.

[Opus007]

Tommy,
So did that new software fix everything completely and is there still a big difference between using the hdmi and the multi inputs?Also what disk is it that you have that will send a sweep to the rear speakers.Is it the Avia or DVE?Thanks.

[TommyV]

DVE has the sweep test but like I said I have the DVD version. For audio tones though I think it is fine that is why I never bought any High Def versions. FYI the version Rotel Tech said they used to cofirm the issue was Avia DVD for what that's worth.

As far as HDMI vs. Analog I will have to get back to you on that. It is going to take a little longer to hatch that out. I can say the HDMI is sounding very nice right now but I am not completely sure whether or not my Pio 23FD will output both at the same time.

I will do some testing and the cables are still in place but the HDMI is definitely working well now with the new software. Well enough to use because I have multiple players. Now I can pull out my Oppo again and start playing some SACD/DVD-As if I feel like it.

To give you a quick answer NO, there is not a BIG difference as in immediately apparent. That would take something being terribly wrong with one or the other.

B&W tech wrote me again saying they were glad the software was working for me. They were going to do some further testing for any other bugs before they upload it to the support website. I am betting they want to make sure it is the LAST software version for this processor.

[Opus007]

Thanks Tommy.You have been very helpful as always.I want to do the sweeps on the rear speakers just to make sure .I sent Rotel a email letting them know I have the problem with multi channel over hdmi sub issue so hopefully will get that resolved next week.Thanks again.

[Opus007]

I was able to test the rear channels and no bass redirection going on there.So contacted Rotel by email and received this response
"Dear Shaun,
Sorry to hear about your RSP-1069. The issue you have described is a bug that was resolved with the latest update V1.2.2. This update is undergoing final testing now and it should be posted online this week at .....
So will just have to wait till it is posted.

[Opus007]

The new software is up on the Rotel site.Do I need to upgrade 1.18 to 1.21 first or can I just install version 1.22 from 1.18.Thanks

[TommyV]

You should just update to the latest. It includes all previous fixes.

[hifiguymi]

So Tommy, how does it feel to be the one that found a bug? I see that there is new firmware for the RSX-1058 as well for the same issue so I'll have some updating to do for a number of customers.

Eric

[TommyV]

So Tommy, how does it feel to be the one that found a bug? I see that there is new firmware for the RSX-1058 as well for the same issue so I'll have some updating to do for a number of customers.

Eric

Good. Not just that my setup sounds good but hopefully all other owner's of similar units can benefit from it. It was a joint effort between me and the guys at B&W fixing it so fast and properly. Pretty cool how they will work with customers like that. Try and get service like that from Onkyo, etc.

B&W can just send me an SSP-800 and I will work though it for them for any bugs :B

[TommyV]

The new software is up on the Rotel site.Do I need to upgrade 1.18 to 1.21 first or can I just install version 1.22 from 1.18.Thanks

As stated in their release notes (always read those before updating) they recommend having scaler v1.48 installed first. FYI

[Opus007]

I updated the scaler to 1.48 and then the main to 1.22 with no problems.The rears are now sending the cutoff to the subs but when I check with my spl meter to see if the multichannel is doing the +10(max) in the multichannel sub setup the readings are the same weather it is set to 0 or +10.Did you confirm that that is working Tommy?I am sending a test tone to the subs from a disk on my ps3 via hdmi and set to lpcm.

[TommyV]

It seemed to work fine for me. It was so low at zero I was getting almost no reading.

[Opus007]

It seemed to work fine for me. It was so low at zero I was getting almost no reading.

I am getting a reading but it does not change.I have the volume on the 1069 set to where at 0 in the multichannel sub set up the reading on my spl is 75db.When i go back into the multichannel sub setup and set it to MAX (+10) and re-read my spl it is exactly the same reading 75db.All over hdmi LPCM.Any thoughts?

[TommyV]

You could try playing a MPCM track on HDMI and then pressing the SUB button on the remote and turning it up and down that way. If that does nothing at all then you have the same problem I had before the update. I will check again but all seems to be working for me.

[Opus007]

Will give that a try after dinner.Thanks.

[Opus007]

You could try playing a MPCM track on HDMI and then pressing the SUB button on the remote and turning it up and down that way. If that does nothing at all then you have the same problem I had before the update. I will check again but all seems to be working for me.

i used the sub button on the remote and can add bass just fine there.tested it with a 40hz test tone.Still the multi channel bass adjustment does nothing.I can even turn it off and it still reads the same as 0 and Max.guess will be waiting on Rotel to get back to me as I left Mike a message and also sent a email.

[hifiguymi]

Did you make sure to do a factory reset after you updated the firmware? If not, use the Rotel Setup Config utility to keep your system configuration stored so you don't have to start from scratch after the reset.

Eric