A taste of the new Rotel 15 Series

[Kevin D]

Correct!

Kevin D.

[gd]

I wonder why... ?

[Kevin D]

I'm sure the new 5ch receiver is mainly based on the 1058, it's even the same size and not rack mountable like everything else. It was probably cheaper to keep the same amplifier module then completely redesign it.

The 1067 was never replaced so they had enough time to completely redesign it.

Kevin D.

[lotones]

Kevin, do you know if the RSP 1570 keeps the Burr-Brown dacs from the 1069?

[Kevin D]

No idea.. I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Kevin d.

[theblatt]

No idea.. I'm sure we'll find out soon.

Kevin d.

so i got off the phone with a really knowledgeable guy at Rotel and got some useful information, which i'll share here. i also have some questions i'd love some informed information/opinions on.

as for timing, the stuff announced so far is already in a container on the way. they expect it in any day, and then after testing it he said unless there are problems it will be on the shelves early november.

he also sent me the user manual for the 1560 (see at public.me.com/theblatt). i can find no mention anywhere of the DACs used? either way, i would expect anything from this line to sound better than the flagship "prosumer" stuff i'm comparing it to (pioneer, yamaha) but i was hoping for 24 bit audio upconversion--much more so than the faroudja chip which my pio5020FD already has (as most comparable panels, so a waste of money imho)!

anyway, that's what i know. here's what i want to know.

the RSX1560 is $2600 with 7 channels x100 class d power. the RSP is the same but minus the amplification for $2200, and 5 x 100 (not 7) = $1300 = $3500 total ($900 more) for same functionality and less power. given that it's the same power source used in the receiver, how much better would you actually expect separates to sound. i mean, really, it's the same gear just in one box vs. 2.

also, what the rep told me was that you can assign each amp to different channels, so, for example, in stereo the 1560 can be 2 x 300 and 5.1 2x200 and 3 x 100 (for center and rears). this strikes me as really flexible.

lastly, if i did want the value/look/flex of separates, or i wanted still more sound, i could add the 2 X 250 (RMB1572).

so the real question is: why pay only $400 less for RSP when you can basically get 7X100 (or 2 x300, or 2x200 and 3x100) power for the difference.

thought, comments, opinions, suggestions, flames?

[kmcheng]

so the real question is: why pay only $400 less for RSP when you can basically get 7X100 (or 2 x300, or 2x200 and 3x100) power for the difference.

thought, comments, opinions, suggestions, flames?

I suppose there are still some consumers out there who do not want or like class D amp. There may also be other people who do not want to change their existing amps. For these people the RSP would "save" them $400.

[TommyV]

I really want the 1560 as well but in all honesty, I have my reservations about moving to a Class D amp. The problem is, I am not sure if my dealer would allow me to return the unit if I am not satisfied with the sound.

I have yet to hear back from Rotel about their conflicting amp specs on the 1550. I sent an email days ago with no response and called multiple times but am never able to get through. I always end up getting the voice mail but I do not want them to call me back at some inopportune time. I have never had this much trouble getting in touch with them.

[artv4]

I really want the 1560 as well but in all honesty, I have my reservations about moving to a Class D amp. The problem is, I am not sure if my dealer would allow me to return the unit if I am not satisfied with the sound.

I have yet to hear back from Rotel about their conflicting amp specs on the 1550. I sent an email days ago with no response and called multiple times but am never able to get through. I always end up getting the voice mail but I do not want them to call me back at some inopportune time. I have never had this much trouble getting in touch with them.

i agree. i emailed rotel monday and still have not received a reply........... they usually return the same day

[hifiguymi]

so the real question is: why pay only $400 less for RSP when you can basically get 7X100 (or 2 x300, or 2x200 and 3x100) power for the difference.

thought, comments, opinions, suggestions, flames?

As with the RSP-1069 and the RSX-1058 the preamp is slightly different. While the DSP engine and the DACs are all the same the power supply and internal layout are not. While I've not heard the new 15 Series, the 10 Series preamps always sounded better than the receivers used as preamps. The differences are sometimes small, but they are there. All in all, it means that the receivers are very good values but not quite as good as separates. And as kmcheng pointed out you can pick your amps with a separate preamp.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

I really want the 1560 as well but in all honesty, I have my reservations about moving to a Class D amp. The problem is, I am not sure if my dealer would allow me to return the unit if I am not satisfied with the sound.

I have yet to hear back from Rotel about their conflicting amp specs on the 1550. I sent an email days ago with no response and called multiple times but am never able to get through. I always end up getting the voice mail but I do not want them to call me back at some inopportune time. I have never had this much trouble getting in touch with them.

I'm assuming you mean the fact that Rotel lists both 100 x 5 and 75 x 5 power ratings. If you look at the specs a little closer, when the 100 watt spec is given is at 1kHz, not full bandwidth (20Hz - 20kHz) like the 75 watt spec. Rotel did that on the RSX-1057 and RSX-1058 as well, just not as often.

Eric

[TommyV]

I'm assuming you mean the fact that Rotel lists both 100 x 5 and 75 x 5 power ratings. If you look at the specs a little closer, when the 100 watt spec is given is at 1kHz, not full bandwidth (20Hz - 20kHz) like the 75 watt spec. Rotel did that on the RSX-1057 and RSX-1058 as well, just not as often.

Eric

I have never seen anywhere that Rotel has said the 1057 was 5x100. In fact, I remember them specifically emphasizing the 5x75 of the 1057 being real power ratings with all channels driven in the description of every piece of literature I read when I was making my purchase. Look here now that they have all the receivers listed, 10 and 15 series, it clearly says 5 x 75 for the 1057 & 1058 while it lists 100 x 5 for the 1550

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=24

[hifiguymi]

I should have clarified. The 100 watt ratings have been with only two channels driven but Rotel has published that spec. Since all five channels don't have that much of a demand placed on them at the same time, I'm sure they expanded it to 100 x 5. If you look at a Denon, Pioneer Elite, Onkyo, etc. you will see they all do the same. They claim 100 x 7 but when you look closer, it's with only two channels driven. Rotel is only doing now what everybody else has been doing from the beginning.

I'm sure the RSX-1550 has the same amplifiers that were in the RSX-1057 / RSX-1058. Since they seem to be moving to class D I doubt they put a brand new amp in the RSX-1550. All of the 75 x 5 specs for the RSX-1550 read just like they do for the RSX-1057 / RSX-1058 which also leads me to believe that they are the same.

There are a lot of people that have to have that magic "100 watts per channel" so Rotel is caving in a little to the marketing end so as to not have their product overlooked. As a dealer, I can't blame them. If you can start a conversation with someone because of that 100 watt number and then educate them on how power ratings are really done, it gives Rotel a chance.

Eric

[TommyV]

Eric,

I finally was able to get a hold of "Mike" in tech support at Rotel. After some vague answers and a little misdirection, he basically stated what you just did about other manufacturers doing it but also stated the amp in the new 1550 has been "tweaked a little".

I responded "So I should just assume the amp is the exact same one in my 1057 and the new descriptions are just a marketing strategy and I should only pay attention to the detailed specs?". He did not exactly agree with that statement saying that the amp was different but did not provide any specifics about what was different and why the detailed specs are exactly the same across the 3 models.

So even though somewhat evasive, I think I got my answer. Rotel has decided to change their strategy and use misleading statements about amp power ratings to lure people to purchase their products like what the mass market brands do. Can't say I am exactly thrilled about that decision.

[mjb]

The 1057 is not D Class, Rotel seems to have moved most of its range to D Class ICE modules, but not the 1550 - according to their website.

As for misleading statements, Rotel have IMO have always been very honest if not conservative regards output power and I'd be very surprised if they change that strategy now. There's more likely a sprinkling of mis-information and/or FUD floating around. I really think we should wait until the 15 series products are shipping before making premature judgement.

[TommyV]

I am not spreading FUD. It is right there clear as day on their website. Just click the link in my post above. Also I am aware that my 1057 is an A/B amp not Class D. Not sure why you felt you needed to point that out.

I am still excited about the new 15 series. I was just needing that clarification as I am deciding between the 1550 and 1560 as a replacement for my 1057.

[hifiguymi]

So even though somewhat evasive, I think I got my answer. Rotel has decided to change their strategy and use misleading statements about amp power ratings to lure people to purchase their products like what the mass market brands do. Can't say I am exactly thrilled about that decision.

I don't believe that Rotel is using misleading statements. I do agree that it can be confusing that they put both specs on their web site / literature. The one you see the most is the 75 x 5 number so they are sticking true to who they are. Do you consider all of the companies that I mentioned before to be dishonest or use misleading statements?

Rotel is in the business of selling product and this may help them do more of it. That would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned because it makes all of the rest of the line that much better if they have more money coming in. Time will tell it that will be the case.

Eric

[wz2p7j]

Wha is This Thing?

http://www.rotel.com/NA/Products/Pro...75&Tab=1&Pic=6

From the Rotel site. What is the "thing" on top? I haven't seen it anywhere else. Sorta looks like a power conditioner or maybe a tuner, given all the buttons it is sporting on the left side. Must be something in the 15 series we'll be seeing in the future. I was kinda hoping for something that looked like a Blu-Ray player. Chris

[Epicurus]

There's some high-res images of the new products on their Public Relation partner's site.

http://www.nicollpr.com/ROTEL/Files/15%20Series/Digital%20Images/

[wz2p7j]

The Thing

Looked at all those high res pics. It is a tuner! Chris

[Dmantis]

so i got off the phone with a really knowledgeable guy at Rotel and got some useful information, which i'll share here. i also have some questions i'd love some informed information/opinions on.

as for timing, the stuff announced so far is already in a container on the way. they expect it in any day, and then after testing it he said unless there are problems it will be on the shelves early november.

he also sent me the user manual for the 1560 (see at public.me.com/theblatt). i can find no mention anywhere of the DACs used? either way, i would expect anything from this line to sound better than the flagship "prosumer" stuff i'm comparing it to (pioneer, yamaha) but i was hoping for 24 bit audio upconversion--much more so than the faroudja chip which my pio5020FD already has (as most comparable panels, so a waste of money imho)!

anyway, that's what i know. here's what i want to know.

the RSX1560 is $2600 with 7 channels x100 class d power. the RSP is the same but minus the amplification for $2200, and 5 x 100 (not 7) = $1300 = $3500 total ($900 more) for same functionality and less power. given that it's the same power source used in the receiver, how much better would you actually expect separates to sound. i mean, really, it's the same gear just in one box vs. 2.

also, what the rep told me was that you can assign each amp to different channels, so, for example, in stereo the 1560 can be 2 x 300 and 5.1 2x200 and 3 x 100 (for center and rears). this strikes me as really flexible.

lastly, if i did want the value/look/flex of separates, or i wanted still more sound, i could add the 2 X 250 (RMB1572).

so the real question is: why pay only $400 less for RSP when you can basically get 7X100 (or 2 x300, or 2x200 and 3x100) power for the difference.

thought, comments, opinions, suggestions, flames?

This is a excellent question and with the new Class D amps, I'm wondering how close it would be myself.

So basically what seperates offer over a receiver is seperate power supplies and better dynamic range. Clarity and detail also are a by product of this. A receiver has to share one power supply and inside a receiver, there are alot of things going on. In seperates, the amp section and preamp are "shielded from one another living in different chassis. So other then that with High end seperates/ receiver companies this is basically it.

On a side note, I watched a B&K avr307 and a Ref30 of years ago get built from a circuit board to a finished product. B&K uses the ref30 preamp section in the avr307 receiver. It's the exact same one. They come off the same line and get placed in the ref30 chassis or the avr307. The amps in the avr are the st series. They are also the same exact amps with alittle changes to internally connect to the preamp and power supply.

Now after seeing this go and thinking exactly as you are on the Rotels, the ref30 and st 125.7 still sounded a bit better then the avr307. It wasn't night and day but there was a increase in Dynamic range , clarity and detail. without having both in the same room on the same speakers and sources , it would be difficult to hear any difference. But after I tested this myself, You cannot deny the seperates where better.

Now with the Class D amps, I would like to perform this very test again. It is possible is may be closer now , who knows but I see exactly what your saying. Currently I own the rsp1068 preamp with the rmb1095. I would love to go back to a receiver and get rid of all the extra wires in my system. My problem is I have Difficult speakers to drive ( 4 ohms at 86db) and kinda need a strong power amp to drive them right.

So if I can get my hands on the new 15 series, I plan on conducting this test. I know some Rotel retailers and I think I will be able to perform this test right in there showroom. It will be intresting to see and hear the results. If it's close running harder to drive speakers then I will gladly go back to a high end receiver over owning seperates to clean up my wires. If it is still like the B&K test, I will be getting a new preamp and probably some new Class D amps if they prove to sound as good or better then my rmb1095.

[TommyV]

I don't believe that Rotel is using misleading statements. I do agree that it can be confusing that they put both specs on their web site / literature. The one you see the most is the 75 x 5 number so they are sticking true to who they are. Do you consider all of the companies that I mentioned before to be dishonest or use misleading statements?

Rotel is in the business of selling product and this may help them do more of it. That would be a good thing as far as I'm concerned because it makes all of the rest of the line that much better if they have more money coming in. Time will tell it that will be the case.

Eric

I am all for Rotel making money and ask anyone who knows me, a loyal fan. This kind of tactic really goes against some of the core ideas about Rotel that were expressed to me when I was first introduced to them.

I do not want to be negative or bring doom and gloom into this thread and am very excited about the upcoming products. If all goes well, I will be a Rotel owner for many years to come :T

[TommyV]

This is a excellent question and with the new Class D amps, I'm wondering how close it would be myself.

So basically what seperates offer over a receiver is seperate power supplies and better dynamic range. Clarity and detail also are a by product of this. A receiver has to share one power supply and inside a receiver, there are alot of things going on. In seperates, the amp section and preamp are "shielded from one another living in different chassis. So other then that with High end seperates/ receiver companies this is basically it.

On a side note, I watched a B&K avr307 and a Ref30 of years ago get built from a circuit board to a finished product. B&K uses the ref30 preamp section in the avr307 receiver. It's the exact same one. They come off the same line and get placed in the ref30 chassis or the avr307. The amps in the avr are the st series. They are also the same exact amps with alittle changes to internally connect to the preamp and power supply.

Now after seeing this go and thinking exactly as you are on the Rotels, the ref30 and st 125.7 still sounded a bit better then the avr307. It wasn't night and day but there was a increase in Dynamic range , clarity and detail. without having both in the same room on the same speakers and sources , it would be difficult to hear any difference. But after I tested this myself, You cannot deny the seperates where better.

Now with the Class D amps, I would like to perform this very test again. It is possible is may be closer now , who knows but I see exactly what your saying. Currently I own the rsp1068 preamp with the rmb1095. I would love to go back to a receiver and get rid of all the extra wires in my system. My problem is I have Difficult speakers to drive ( 4 ohms at 86db) and kinda need a strong power amp to drive them right.

So if I can get my hands on the new 15 series, I plan on conducting this test. I know some Rotel retailers and I think I will be able to perform this test right in there showroom. It will be intresting to see and hear the results. If it's close running harder to drive speakers then I will gladly go back to a high end receiver over owning seperates to clean up my wires. If it is still like the B&K test, I will be getting a new preamp and probably some new Class D amps if they prove to sound as good or better then my rmb1095.

My plan is to talk to my dealer and see if they would go for "selling" me either an RMB 1085, 1076 or 1077 so I could audition the Class D amps in my home and then be able to return the item. If I fall in love with the Class D sound, then I am all in for a 1560. If not, I may be in the market for a RMB-1075 for a good price.

[Kevin D]

Rotel's running pretty good close-out deals on the 10 series products right now, so I would imagine that wouldn't be a problem.

Kevin D.

[watchnerd]

he also sent me the user manual for the 1560 (see at public.me.com/theblatt).

theblatt, do you mind sharing your Rotel contact?

I'd love to get a copy of the RSP-1570 manual.

[Ken49r]

Rotel's running pretty good close-out deals on the 10 series products right now, so I would imagine that wouldn't be a problem.

Kevin do you know what the RSP-1069 is selling for? I was going to wait to buy used but if the price drop is generous enough I would prefer new with the warranty included.

[cdika17]

Rotel has the new 15-series on there website now.

[gd]

Nuts... no mention of HDCD, looks like it's been dropped.

Disappointing, but the 1560 still remains on my short list.

the rep told me was that you can assign each amp to different channels, so, for example, in stereo the 1560 can be 2 x 300 and 5.1 2x200 and 3 x 100 (for center and rears). this strikes me as really flexible.

This strikes me as really unlikely... I've never heard of such configurability for these D-class amps... is this actually doable?

Educate me.

[watchnerd]

Nuts... no mention of HDCD, looks like it's been dropped.

Disappointing, but the 1560 still remains on my short list.

This strikes me as really unlikely... I've never heard of such configurability for these D-class amps... is this actually doable?

Educate me.

Personally, I couldn't find any mention of this capability in the 1560 manual, although I'll admit it's fairly large and I was skimming.

[Leef DaLucky]

what's with the display on the new tuner?

http://www.nicollpr.com/ROTEL/Files/15%20Series/Digital%20Images/RT1510.jpg

why wouldn't they use a standard VFD like they do on the pre/pro?

[hifiguymi]

This strikes me as really unlikely... I've never heard of such configurability for these D-class amps... is this actually doable?

Educate me.

I'm sure the RSX-1560 has a redirect just like the RSX-1067 so you can bi-amp the front speakers with the front and surround back amps. That is probably what was being referenced.

Eric

[Kevin D]

what's with the display on the new tuner?

http://www.nicollpr.com/ROTEL/Files/15%20Series/Digital%20Images/RT1510.jpg

why wouldn't they use a standard VFD like they do on the pre/pro?

Since it's still a pre-release picture, there might be a chance it includes a XM/Sirius option again. The multi-line display will probably add more information on the screen at the same time.

It would probably come in handy for HD-FM. It includes a lot of extended information as well. It would also ease integration with automation systems, since the standard Rotel protocol only relays what's displayed on the front panel. The 1084 takes a lot of communication to get all information for HD stations and Sirius..

Kevin D.

[Kevin D]

Kevin do you know what the RSP-1069 is selling for? I was going to wait to buy used but if the price drop is generous enough I would prefer new with the warranty included.

RSP-1069 is allowed to sell at $1249. This of course depends on the dealer, and only for newly ordered product.

Kevin D.

[Leef DaLucky]

Went over to my my local shop AudioOne today, as it's B&W/Rotel day there and our local Rep, Murry was on hand.
I was hoping for a quick audition of the new stuff, but alas, the new stuff wasn't in yet.
He DID bring along the chassis for the RSP-1570 and RMB-1575, but they were gutted of any innards and the proper i/o shield on the back wasn't in place. A bit of a tease to see those nice little glowing blue rings. Very attractive in black.
He's saying at least another 3-4 weeks until we'll start seeing the new deliveries.
Can't wait.
He also mentioned that there will definitely be a CD player released, and there also just working out the logistics of the new tuner. They don't seem to sell a lot of tuners, but they're trying to get in some quality parts for it.

cheers,
L.

[Noddy347]

Is Rotel phasing out the 10xx series equipment and replacing the line with the 15xx? Do we think they will offer a 1069 mkII with the new BR sound formats decoders and upgraded HDMI 1.3?

[hifiguymi]

Yes the 15 Series is replacing the 10 Series. As for an RSP-1069 MKII that is the RSP-1570 and it has everything you asked for. It will ship sometime in November to early December. The retail is the same at $2200.00 US.

Eric

[Noddy347]

Yes the 15 Series is replacing the 10 Series. As for an RSP-1069 MKII that is the RSP-1570 and it has everything you asked for. It will ship sometime in November to early December. The retail is the same at $2200.00 US.

Eric

Just to clear up any confusion, the rsp 1570 doesn't have any amps on board?

Rotel suggests on it's web page that it has 100watts by 12 amp power on board.

http://www.rotel.com/UK/products/index.htm?cat=25

[Kevin D]

No amps.. Looks like an oops on the UK page:

http://www.rotel.com/NA/products/index.htm?cat=25

[GillianSeed]

Got some news from my dealer.
15 Series is cheaper (10% in Germany)
There will be no replacement for the RB1091 and RB1092! 2x250 on 8 Ohm, thats it.
Maybe on 2010 there will be a bigger Processor with TFT Display.
No Autocalibration, Room correction.

PS.:
I compared 10Series against NAD Master Series. I liked Rotel more!
Both were outclassed by Audionet (Made in Germany ), not only by its performance, its all about the price!

[Pitou5]

Quick question about the RSX-1550/1560

Do you know if it will accept and decode 5.1/7.1 LPCM via HDMI?

My HD-DVD and blu-ray player can decode some new codecs and send a LPCM multichannel stream.

Also, I know it can decode the new codecs directly, but I'm thinking about DVD-A/SACD, like the PS3, I think it can decode SACD to 5.1 LPCM, so I just want to confirm.

Thank you.

Pitou!

[hifiguymi]

Quick question about the RSX-1550/1560

Do you know if it will accept and decode 5.1/7.1 LPCM via HDMI?

My HD-DVD and blu-ray player can decode some new codecs and send a LPCM multichannel stream.

Yes they can.

Also, I know it can decode the new codecs directly, but I'm thinking about DVD-A/SACD, like the PS3, I think it can decode SACD to 5.1 LPCM, so I just want to confirm.

Thank you.

Pitou!

DVD-A is not a problem since that is a PCM signal. The Rotel units do not decode DSD internally so with SACD you need a player that does DSD to PCM conversion which quite a few do. I'm not sure if the PS3 does DSD to PCM conversion so maybe someone else can answer that one. I know that not all PS3s play SACDs so you have to make sure your unit does.

Eric

[Pitou5]

DVD-A is not a problem since that is a PCM signal.

A lot of DVD-A contains a MLP multichannel lossless track, so it's not PCM. But I guess that every DVD-A player will decode it and sends a multichannel LPCM stream.

Am I right?

My PS3 reads SACD, but I still have to check if it decodes it and sends it PCM.

Pitou!

[hifiguymi]

You're correct that DVD-A uses MLP. When a DVD-A is read, the player unpacks the MLP into a multi channel PCM. They all work the same way so all you need for DVD-A is a receiver or preamp that will accept multi channel PCM through the HDMI. Everything beyond HDMI 1.1 does this.

Eric

[jdc115]

My PS3 reads SACD, but I still have to check if it decodes it and sends it PCM.

Pitou!

The PS3 converts DSD to PCM. I use the PS3 with a NAD T175 and output the SACD over HDMI (the nad does not handle DSD either).

[Dmantis]

The PS3 converts DSD to PCM. I use the PS3 with a NAD T175 and output the SACD over HDMI (the nad does not handle DSD either).

I heard the T175 is getting a upgrade, has it yet? I understand it as it's a updated card.