Rotel to McIntosh

**scanido** · 24 April 2008, 16:50 Thursday

Give it some more time to break in. Leaving it on idle will not do much to break it in, you'll need to continuously put load on the amp.

**shadow 8** · 24 April 2008, 17:24 Thursday

There is very little difference in the sound of good amps and preamps. Your Rotel gear is very good sounding. At most I might expect the Mac to sound a little less forward and not so bright, but the differences would be subtle. I think you were misled by your salesman to make a sale. Don't get me wrong. The Mac is beautiful gear which is very well made, and would be a joy to own, but if you are buying with the main goal of a big leap in sound quality with the Mac, you are almost guaranteed to be disappointed.

**Dmantis** · 24 April 2008, 20:27 Thursday

Originally posted by shadow 8

There is very little difference in the sound of good amps and preamps. Your Rotel gear is very good sounding. At most I might expect the Mac to sound a little less forward and not so bright, but the differences would be subtle. I think you were misled by your salesman to make a sale. Don't get me wrong. The Mac is beautiful gear which is very well made, and would be a joy to own, but if you are buying with the main goal of a big leap in sound quality with the Mac, you are almost guaranteed to be disappointed.

I agree with this and not.

I agree amps don't make night and day difference when the given amp is able to properly power the given speakers. You will however hear some minor detail that might have been missing from the other amp.

Preamps make a huge difference is sound quality. Depending on how it's used, it will be night and day.

Mac gear is top notch and far superior to Rotel anything. I own Rotel and have alot of experience with both companies. McIntosh is getting to the highest end of audio. Sure you can spend more on other brands but in my honest personal and professional opnion, McIntosh is the be all end all. For me anyway. I would be completely proud to own there gear.

Break in period is very real. Give it some time. turn the volume up after 40 to 100 hours of play time and experience Mac. It will be worth the wait.

Good luck and congrads. ;x( ;x( ;x(

**soundhound** · 24 April 2008, 20:29 Thursday

Originally posted by shadow 8

There is very little difference in the sound of good amps and preamps.

Not True.
If your speakers are revealing, there are BIG differences, form tone to, soundstage, to, you name it.

Go to your favorite boutique and using the same speaks, swap one of each and you shall see.

**btf1980** · 24 April 2008, 21:44 Thursday

This is where this hobby gets really subjective, and it really is. Some guys swear by exotic power cords or whatever nonsense and say things like "Oh, my player really opened up and the soundstage improved by 300% when I replaced the power cord that came with the player." Really? Where are they getting their calculations from? Why 300%? Why not 275%? You just have to wade through the bull, and see what's solid. Asking people about what sounds good will not always send you down the right path. It's a road that you have to travel, and you might find that magic combination of gear that works for you. You can't measure what sounds good to you. Take everything you read with a grain of salt, and everything you hear yourself as a guide, provided you are in ideal listening conditions.

If you are happy with Rotel and don't hear the improvements with Mac, then it's not worth it to you. Perhaps to the next person, it is. You opened your post that you are very happy with Rotel, so what then is the reason for looking elsewhere? I'll be frank here, many "audiophiles" embellish beyond all realms of sanity when they describe things, even the most subtle things in their minds is justifiable to spend more, in many cases thousands more, for such minute differences that they swear is large. It's a disease, and many don't want a cure. It's very rarely a night and day difference between quality gear from my experiences, but to many it is. Trust your ears, far too many people buy gear just for gear sake.

**mjb** · 25 April 2008, 01:45 Friday

Originally posted by btf1980

If you are happy with Rotel and don't hear the improvements with Mac, then it's not worth it to you. Perhaps to the next person, it is. You opened your post that you are very happy with Rotel, so what then is the reason for looking elsewhere? I'll be frank here, many "audiophiles" embellish beyond all realms of sanity when they describe things, even the most subtle things in their minds is justifiable to spend more, in many cases thousands more, for such minute differences that they swear is large. It's a disease, and many don't want a cure. It's very rarely a night and day difference between quality gear from my experiences, but to many it is. Trust your ears, far too many people buy gear just for gear sake.

Well put!
Its all very subjective, but if you're happy with the Rotel sound, stick with it.

As far as break-in is concerned, I believe this has more to do with YOU becoming used to the sound than any changes in the sound over time. If you don't like it now, it won't sound better after the return period has expired!

**shadow 8** · 25 April 2008, 04:31 Friday

Originally posted by soundhound

Not True.
If your speakers are revealing, there are BIG differences, form tone to, soundstage, to, you name it.

Go to your favorite boutique and using the same speaks, swap one of each and you shall see.

Disagree, the measured differences are infintisimal, your reaction is purely subjective. There is a good reason why people consistently fail to identify the more expensive component in blind, level matched listening tests. I have been in this hobby for 30 years and have owned Audio Research, Krell, Mac and many others. There tends to be quite a bit more difference in the sound of tube gear versus solid state, but otherwise the differences are small. I have sat in on comparative listening to electronics and have consistently been surprised by statements of people wanting to buy more expensive gear who said how that amp or preamp "blew away" the less expensive option. The differences were audible but minor in nature. If you have the money and want to spend it, you will take any difference you hear and make it as profound as possible to justify your purchase. You also cannot underestimate the impact that cosmetics and build quality add to the equation. The Mac gear is just plain gorgeous and beautifully made. The reality in high end audio has always been that the first 95% of performance is cheap, the last 5% can be incredibly expensive. People like me continue to justify why we pay for that 5% but that does not mean it is objectively true or rationally related to the increased improvement in sound quality.

**soundhound** · 25 April 2008, 06:36 Friday

If your ever in the west central side of Wisconsin, give me a heads up.
We can switch between 2 different pre amps I have, and you tell me what you hear, you may be surprised.

**soundhound** · 25 April 2008, 06:43 Friday

I am with mjb,
Well Put!
On a side note, there is alot more to pre-power amps than there are power cords which is where the topic originally began.
That takes it into an apples to oranges comparison.

**miner** · 25 April 2008, 07:46 Friday

Rotel makes very good gear for the $$. Istarted with the RC-1070/RB-1070 combo and moved up to the RC-1090/RB-1092. Difference - yes - but not huge. Your current Rotel set-up is very good and would require spending more than you did on your Mac to hear a substantial difference. I was earlier considering upgrading to Calss amp & pre for around $7000 but once I demoed and side-by-side the $7000 'upgrade' was not worth the cost to me, JMHO. I don't have tons of disposable cash so I am sure that was a factor in my decision. Bottom line is if you are happy with your gear that is all that matters. Just enjoy the music - this is a subjective hobby.

**GregLett** · 25 April 2008, 09:45 Friday

I've said this before. Rotel + Rotel match very well, especially the CD pre combo. As miner wrote you will have to spend a lot more to get better sound.
"just enjoy the music"

**RotelGuy** · 25 April 2008, 15:26 Friday

Thanks for all the help so far!

I forgot to mention but I do have the McIntosh MA6900 on playing kind of loud when I'm at work with the Rotel RT-1080 Tuner with FM station going and an old 4-Ohm 87db power hungry speakers I don't use anymore, I leave it on those to make sure it draws power cause the Klipschorn's speakers don't draw much power at 105db. sensitive, so when I get home for a listen, I change it back on the Klipschorns and put a CD on.

I decided to try one Klipschorn speaker on the Rotel RB-1080 and the other Klipschorn speaker on the McIntosh MA6900 and use a y-splitter for the right RCA on the Rotel RCD-1072 CD player to have one go to the McIntosh and the other to the Rotel. I listen for hours this way last night and I still come to the same conclusion. The only difference I make out is that the Rotel may sound slightly sharper and the McIntosh slightly softer/warmer, and the soundstage is wider on Rotel. I still like the Rotel sound better, maybe I'm just used to it and like how it does but I hear all the low-level clarity, like echos in quiet passages, a very faint voice way in the background, stage echos from opera voices that rolls and rolls after a note that gets masked/filter out on the McIntosh more.

I talked to the McIntosh dealer about returning the MA6900. He said they don't like to do that because I already opened it up and used it for 24 days.

One guy offered to come over tonight for a listen, he's a 25 year McIntosh user and owns tons of McIntosh stuff so he said he will know if it's working proper, so I will see what he has to say.
Maybe he can tell me what I'm supposed to hear that I am not? This whole thing is driving me crazy and stressing me out.

**N2siast** · 25 April 2008, 16:32 Friday

This reminds me of my switch from the RSP-1066 to the 1098.

**cug** · 25 April 2008, 17:09 Friday

Originally posted by RotelGuy

Thanks for all the help so far!

I forgot to mention but I do have the McIntosh MA6900 on playing kind of loud when I'm at work with the Rotel RT-1080 Tuner with FM station going and an old 4-Ohm 87db power hungry speakers I don't use anymore, I leave it on those to make sure it draws power cause the Klipschorn's speakers don't draw much power at 105db. sensitive, so when I get home for a listen, I change it back on the Klipschorns and put a CD on.

I decided to try one Klipschorn speaker on the Rotel RB-1080 and the other Klipschorn speaker on the McIntosh MA6900 and use a y-splitter for the right RCA on the Rotel RCD-1072 CD player to have one go to the McIntosh and the other to the Rotel. I listen for hours this way last night and I still come to the same conclusion. The only difference I make out is that the Rotel may sound slightly sharper and the McIntosh slightly softer/warmer, and the soundstage is wider on Rotel. I still like the Rotel sound better, maybe I'm just used to it and like how it does but I hear all the low-level clarity, like echos in quiet passages, a very faint voice way in the background, stage echos from opera voices that rolls and rolls after a note that gets masked/filter out on the McIntosh more.

I talked to the McIntosh dealer about returning the MA6900. He said they don't like to do that because I already opened it up and used it for 24 days.

One guy offered to come over tonight for a listen, he's a 25 year McIntosh user and owns tons of McIntosh stuff so he said he will know if it's working proper, so I will see what he has to say.
Maybe he can tell me what I'm supposed to hear that I am not? This whole thing is driving me crazy and stressing me out.

Maybe you don't want to hear that, but probably you got ripped off by your dealer. The McIntosh might sound different, but never so much to make a "night and day" difference - something quoted so much from people who are not be able to find their own equipment in blind tests ...

You got some very high value (not only price, but McIntosh IS high value too) equipment. If you don't like it - I guess you'll have to put it as a "lesson learned" and tell your friends not to go to that dealer again because he talked you into something that isn't "just true". McIntosh does not necessarily have a better sound than Rotel - only if you like the very minor differences the amplifier makes. Just never buy at that dealer again.

**soundhound** · 25 April 2008, 17:53 Friday

RotelGuy,
If the Mac guy is biased, don't let him tell you "the problem" is the K horns.
I have a few sets of various Klipsch offerings and will never part with them.
I ran an RB-1080 into my 7's for a long time, tried an RB-1090, went back to the 1080, then went to tubes. Of all the 1080 is stil my favorite ss amp.
Good luck,
I am sure you will get it where you want it.

gd · 25 April 2008, 20:48 Friday

You're standing at the precipice of audiophilia.

It's a dangerous place, and really, you are pretty much on your own.

I don't have any quick fixes for your situation because of the wild-card variables:

The way the Rotel and Mac actually sound in your room, to my ears.
Your room in general – size, shape, surface etc.
Your level of experience/expertise.
The difference between how/what you hear and everybody else.
The overzealous – and often contradictory – impressions of enthusiasts.
A sticky – and now seemingly unpleasant – retail experience.

The good news: that you've enlisted a trustworthy and experienced Mac enthusiast to give input is a great (lucky?) move... hopefully you'll get some unbiased feedback.

You've already have heard the 'do your homework' advice by now, so I'll spare ya, but only add that this applies to the terms of retail transactions as well... most Mac retailers don't allow home auditions, as opening the box does in fact devalue the gear, goofy as it seems... maybe you can negotiate a restocking fee.

The likelihood is that the Rotel and Mac are probably each doing their job properly, and one of them is simply not to your liking... and the problem I can't resolve is how you make that determination without great expense... and since you've moved up to the very-good-Rotel and maybe-even-better-McIntosh neighborhood, one of the difficult answers is that you might have to invest in buy-and-try auditions, and re-sell at a mild loss if things aren't to your taste... "good", whatever that is, never comes cheap.

And that's the venus flytrap that is audiophilia.

More practically, don't let anyone tell you all amps sound the same... don't let anyone tell you that differences in amps are night-and-day... audition frequently, however inconvenient it may be, and make those determinations for yourself... be clear on retail terms ahead of time; if no one allows an in-home Mac audition to your satisfaction, maybe the brand should simply be avoided.

Good luck.

**RotelGuy** · 27 April 2008, 18:27 Sunday

Ok, the listening thing went good. He had some of his own CD's too. We listened and made some notes for each the Rotel and McIntosh during listens. He told me the sound is very McIntosh sound and this is it, won't be any different no matter how much I run it for break-in time.

h:

He said that me calling McIntosh a softer sound is incorrect, it's liquid. :E He said to him the Rotel sounds very good and revealing, slightly more than he is used to that it may lean more towards what they call clinical :roll: and less warm than McIntosh. He said the liquid sound isn't toward the clinical sound so that is the low-level clarity I don't need to worry about because it's not there for me to really hear.

I told him I still like to hear that! ;x(

He also said that McIntosh sound has been the same for many years, it's a signature sound and they do not design their amps to sound like British amps of the "Wider Soundstage". 8O It's more center and focused and that is McIntosh, like it or not. :E

He couldn't show me any big differences.

I showed him where some sounds are dynamic and realistic to me with Rotel but not with the McIntosh. He said I just don't like the little more tamed sound of McIntosh. :E I told him it just seems more of different flavors to me than an upgrade in sound like I expected because I don't hear more detail. He said yes, it's like I like Chocolate ice cream and you like Strawberry ice cream, neither is better, just what taste best to you. They do the sound just slightly different.

He gave me a few good tips about amps and their sounds. We discused returning the McIntosh, He thanked me for his first time experiencing the sound of Klipschorn's :P that they sound better than his B&W 800 speakers he has at home, said the Klipschorn's sound more open, airy and bigger sounding with better bass, and said if I ever want to sell them, please give him a call first.
He gave me his card and said he would talk with the owner tomorrow morning and get back to me.

Wow, the owner called me Saturday morning and said they don't carry Rotel for the two peices I talked to Roger about but he's willing to work something out with me to bring the McIntosh back exactly packed how I received it and ask for him when I come in.

I went in and he was the first person I talked to, he asked me for my receipt and gave me a credit for my full amount back!!!

:P ;x( He told me to please keep them in mind with any future purchases of products they carry and apologised that the MA6900 didn't work out for me and that he understands from Roger I said I would buy my book shelf speakers from him for my office system I talked about with Roger.

So for now on I'm just going to standardize on Rotel only. I really like the sound, it's a balance between being smooth but detailed and not edgy highs but not too refined where I miss-out on some low level clarity/detail, and Rotel's prices are reasonable compared to most high-end outragous prices! I was thinking I would move my Rotel to my office when I got the McIntosh so since that isn't happening. I'm going to look into maybe the Rotel RC-1082 and RB-1072 for my office and leave the Rotel RB-1080/RC-1090 at home. I need bookshelf speakers for my office so I'll get those from the dealer for taking care of me with the McIntosh. He has some good speakers to choose from. I'm listening to a demo pair now he let me bring home that I have to bring back Monday morning. I like them and think I'll buy them Monday morning and let him order them.

Yes, I agree, this is a very good lesson learned for me that soundwise, they are just different flavors out there, I'm happy staying with Rotel !!! :W

Thank you every one for all the info and help provided, I should have seek your help before I went and jumped in with both feet first! Thanks and all have a great week!!! :T

**mattburk** · 27 April 2008, 18:45 Sunday

Congrats on the refund.
I went to my local dealer a while back, they just added anthem. We did an a/b test on two channel audio, the younge salesman tried to convince me the anthem was so much better than the rotel, it was not. They sounded similar in quality the only thing the anthem had was better video. Stick with the rotel.

**soundhound** · 27 April 2008, 19:55 Sunday

Good to hear it worked out well.

**WI Rotel** · 27 April 2008, 22:39 Sunday

Originally posted by RotelGuy

Ok, the listening thing went good. He had some of his own CD's too. We listened and made some notes for each the Rotel and McIntosh during listens. He told me the sound is very McIntosh sound and this is it, won't be any different no matter how much I run it for break-in time.

h:

He said that me calling McIntosh a softer sound is incorrect, it's liquid. :E He said to him the Rotel sounds very good and revealing, slightly more than he is used to that it may lean more towards what they call clinical :roll: and less warm than McIntosh. He said the liquid sound isn't toward the clinical sound so that is the low-level clarity I don't need to worry about because it's not there for me to really hear.

I told him I still like to hear that! ;x(

He also said that McIntosh sound has been the same for many years, it's a signature sound and they do not design their amps to sound like British amps of the "Wider Soundstage". 8O It's more center and focused and that is McIntosh, like it or not. :E

He couldn't show me any big differences.

I showed him where some sounds are dynamic and realistic to me with Rotel but not with the McIntosh. He said I just don't like the little more tamed sound of McIntosh. :E I told him it just seems more of different flavors to me than an upgrade in sound like I expected because I don't hear more detail. He said yes, it's like I like Chocolate ice cream and you like Strawberry ice cream, neither is better, just what taste best to you. They do the sound just slightly different.

He gave me a few good tips about amps and their sounds. We discused returning the McIntosh, He thanked me for his first time experiencing the sound of Klipschorn's :P that they sound better than his B&W 800 speakers he has at home, said the Klipschorn's sound more open, airy and bigger sounding with better bass, and said if I ever want to sell them, please give him a call first.
He gave me his card and said he would talk with the owner tomorrow morning and get back to me.

Wow, the owner called me Saturday morning and said they don't carry Rotel for the two peices I talked to Roger about but he's willing to work something out with me to bring the McIntosh back exactly packed how I received it and ask for him when I come in.

I went in and he was the first person I talked to, he asked me for my receipt and gave me a credit for my full amount back!!!

:P ;x( He told me to please keep them in mind with any future purchases of products they carry and apologised that the MA6900 didn't work out for me and that he understands from Roger I said I would buy my book shelf speakers from him for my office system I talked about with Roger.

So for now on I'm just going to standardize on Rotel only. I really like the sound, it's a balance between being smooth but detailed and not edgy highs but not too refined where I miss-out on some low level clarity/detail, and Rotel's prices are reasonable compared to most high-end outragous prices! I was thinking I would move my Rotel to my office when I got the McIntosh so since that isn't happening. I'm going to look into maybe the Rotel RC-1082 and RB-1072 for my office and leave the Rotel RB-1080/RC-1090 at home. I need bookshelf speakers for my office so I'll get those from the dealer for taking care of me with the McIntosh. He has some good speakers to choose from. I'm listening to a demo pair now he let me bring home that I have to bring back Monday morning. I like them and think I'll buy them Monday morning and let him order them.

Yes, I agree, this is a very good lesson learned for me that soundwise, they are just different flavors out there, I'm happy staying with Rotel !!! :W

Thank you every one for all the info and help provided, I should have seek your help before I went and jumped in with both feet first! Thanks and all have a great week!!! :T

You have learned a lot from your expirience and I must concur in all respects, one point however is that the rotel gear matches your speakers to the dot.However the Mac may be a better fit for other speakers. All in all the differences as you have pointed out are slight but present (when comparing amps). That is why it always wise to hear everything as an ensamble and not necessarily buy a component because its theoretically superior, more expensive, or recommended by joe smo! I my self am a big fan of the forward, wide stage and revealing character of Rotels fat amps, that why my 1080 and 1095 will be keepers till they die :W :T

gd · 28 April 2008, 10:19 Monday

Glad it worked out.

You had good luck working for you... few high-end retailers are that flexible.

Enjoy.

**wgriel** · 28 April 2008, 11:20 Monday

Great story and I'm glad things worked out so well!

I have a feeling that "higher end" amps are more likely to differentiate themselves more with speakers that represent a much more difficult load than your Klipschorns, but I don't have any real proof of that.

**WI Rotel** · 28 April 2008, 17:42 Monday

Originally posted by wgriel

Great story and I'm glad things worked out so well!

I have a feeling that "higher end" amps are more likely to differentiate themselves more with speakers that represent a much more difficult load than your Klipschorns, but I don't have any real proof of that.

Klipschorns are a superbly easy drive, if I remember correctly their sensitivity is 93dB/W or more. But with my XT4's which are a notoriously difficult drive the rotels also work fabulously.

**sirbogey** · 29 April 2008, 03:02 Tuesday

Very interesting thread and just confirms what I found out 2y ago when I auditioned Bryston amps. Only because they are more expensive and brand themselves as the ultimate power house (ie 28SST), doesnt mean they sound better. To me (!) the bryston amps I auditioned, didn't sound much different from my RMB1075. As a matter of fact, the RMB1075 and RSP1098 combo goes much better with my Piegas. :T

so I guess, you've learned your lesson. Now go and spend couple of grand on decent cables. I'll bet they won't outperform my CATs :B

**sirbogey** · 29 April 2008, 03:08 Tuesday

Originally posted by RotelGuy

The build quality on the McIntosh is top notch and heavy.

btw: I really dig that comment. If it ain't heavy it ain't good enough. :W

**PewterTA** · 29 April 2008, 14:39 Tuesday

That's why you need to find yourself a 1095/1090 combo sirbogey... that way you'll have LOTS of weight! :T

**JMDooley** · 29 April 2008, 20:40 Tuesday

I too was very much interested in McIntosh equipment for my home theater. After several trips to my nearest dealer and comparing them to many other high end audio equipment. I came to the conclucion that Mcntosh was very well made, beautiful sounding and wonderful to look at. But I couildn't afford the 20 to 30k price tag. Rotel was always sitting in the back of my mind with their lovely sound, great price to performance ratio, wonderful build quality, great magazine reviews and fantastic customer relations.
My Rotel Home Theater really helps to get me into what ever I'm watching or playing. Subtel sounds and clarity just seems to leap of from my JBL's without any stress or strain from my system.
I have't dared to push my system to its limits. But it seems that the l louder it gets, the more clear it becomes without any distortion.
I would have truly loved to be able to afford a system built up of McIntosh equipment, but I don't think I would have as much fun and enjoy it as much as my Rotel system.

**alive&amplified** · 14 May 2008, 06:51 Wednesday

IMHO, the MA6900 is a great integrated amp, but it would have been a better route to purchase a McIntosh 2-channel power amplifier and use your Rotel RC1090 preamp (which is a spectacular premap, by the way) to switch your main sources.

I had an RC1070 preamp and an RB1070 amplifier with a pair of B&W 703's. I knew I was going to upgrade my speakers to 803's, so I decided to make the jump into McIntosh. The McIntosh MC252 offered a night and day difference to the sound. On the 703's the soundstage jumped forward and spread out. Any harshness due to the Rotel amp was gone; just smooth listening from then out. After the speaker upgrade, the Mac amp was a perfect match for my 803S's. Bass extension was terrific, vocals were clear and concise, and details in the tweeter were always present.

**habib** · 29 July 2008, 16:09 Tuesday

Learning the same lesson

I am having the same problem like "RotelGuy" and was trying to get a fix for my situation and finally ended up in this forum. I have been using Arcam AVR350 to drive my Totem Forest speakers and I was OK with it. Then I bought this MA6900. Now it just doesn't sound right to me. This amp is just giving me a flat sound that I hate. Entire sound stage is screwed up. I called Totem and McIntosh. Both parties told me to wait till the amp breaks in. But I doubt that will solve the problem. I asked my dealer to hookup a pair of same speaker to the MA6900 in his studio and I will go and listen to it with him. I have a feeling that he will tell me that is how a MAC sounds like and I need to get used to it.

**Tommy** · 29 July 2008, 18:51 Tuesday

The biggest change McIntosh has brought to my listening session is that I'm able to listen to music for a longer time now without getting irritated or fatigued. Keep in mind that I only have McIntosh as a source player, pre and poweramps are not McIntosh. My speakers are B&W 805S, which are not warm speakers by all means. Still, McIntosh makes me want to listen to music everyday, this never happened when I owned the Marantz SA8260 player.
To sum up, McIntosh to me has let me enjoy more music than ever before, rather than analyzing equipment. Isn't this what our hobby is all about?

Give your equipment a few more hours to run in. McIntosh gears don't change THAT much after 20 hours, but I would let it run in for more than 100 hours before deciding whether you like it or not

**Mig17** · 29 July 2008, 20:44 Tuesday

I am doubting that Rotel 1070 is harness but surely it is not smooth as Mac
:T

Originally posted by alive&lified

IMHO, the MA6900 is a great integrated amp, but it would have been a better route to purchase a McIntosh 2-channel power amplifier and use your Rotel RC1090 preamp (which is a spectacular premap, by the way) to switch your main sources.

I had an RC1070 preamp and an RB1070 amplifier with a pair of B&W 703's. I knew I was going to upgrade my speakers to 803's, so I decided to make the jump into McIntosh. The McIntosh MC252 offered a night and day difference to the sound. On the 703's the soundstage jumped forward and spread out. Any harshness due to the Rotel amp was gone; just smooth listening from then out. After the speaker upgrade, the Mac amp was a perfect match for my 803S's. Bass extension was terrific, vocals were clear and concise, and details in the tweeter were always present.

**WI Rotel** · 30 July 2008, 00:42 Wednesday

Surprised that his thread revivied, but I want to stress Klipshcorns can be driven with anything, my original post actually understated the sensitivity of the classic design, Its sensitivity is actually >100dB/watt. You could probably drive them very well with a classic sansui or a technics receiver (makes sense since they herald to that time). Additional heavy duty amplification will essentially be of no use. As we have discussed before if the amp is not distorting, then its not distorting! speakers with such high efficiency will not strain virtually any amp thus they will sound the same as was your expirience! Even worse too much power will simply overdrive your speaker, not because of clipping, but because your simply supplying power beyond its means. During the 80's I was in an audio store in germany A/B'ing a variety of speakers with a DBX amp, as we can all remmember that was the beginning of CD's. I had a great electronic music Demo by Don Dorsey "Bachbusters" (still one of my favorite demos). During one of the low frequency transients (we were cranking the tunes) we actually had the woofer cone of an L150 rip right off the voice coil! The Klipsch that we demo'ed however took it the same punishment in style! BTW my favorite speakers at that time were Allison CD9's, I don't know if those speakers ever made it out of the the European AAFES "test" market! It was the same time that Mirage was new to the market and tracy chapman was the new sensation!

**RebelMan** · 30 July 2008, 14:08 Wednesday

Originally posted by WI Rotel

As we have discussed before if the amp is not distorting, then its not distorting! speakers with such high efficiency will not strain virtually any amp thus they will sound the same as was your expirience! Even worse too much power will simply overdrive your speaker, not because of clipping, but because your simply supplying power beyond its means.

EVERY amplifier has distortion whether driven to its limits or not. I think you are confusing clipping induced distortion with design induced distortion. Amplifier distortion manifests itself in different ways and in varying degrees. To some it can be observed as etched in the upper registers of accompanying speakers that are more prone to such annoyances at those frequencies. To others it may appear as detail but it's not. It's that people are more tolerant or accustom to these forms of distortion than others. That's why people need to know how well they hear to make meaningful interpretations of what they hear or don't or why the sounds they observe are different from others. I run flat in both ears with a slight dip (less than 5dB) in the right at the highest frequencies so I am fairly sensitive to high frequency distortion.

Rotel makes fine equipment but it's not without its issues and partnering speakers can exacerbate them if chosen haphazardly.

**hifiguymi** · 30 July 2008, 15:05 Wednesday

Originally posted by RebelMan

Rotel makes fine equipment but it's not without its issues and partnering speakers can exacerbate them if chosen haphazardly.

The same could be said for McIntosh (or any other brand for that matter).

Eric

**WI Rotel** · 30 July 2008, 16:18 Wednesday

Originally posted by hifiguymi

The same could be said for McIntosh (or any other brand for that matter).

Eric

Precisely :T

**RebelMan** · 30 July 2008, 17:00 Wednesday

Originally posted by hifiguymi

The same could be said for McIntosh (or any other brand for that matter).

Agreed, but the issues are ameliorated to a larger degree with finer pedigree's. Rotel has big problems with sibilance (another form of distortion), something far less common with some "other brands".

**bigburner** · 31 July 2008, 04:02 Thursday

Originally posted by RotelGuy

I'm going to look into maybe the Rotel RC-1082 and RB-1072 for my office and leave the Rotel RB-1080/RC-1090 at home.

Hi RotelGuy,

Did you buy the Rotel RC-1082 and RB-1072 for your office? If so, would you mind comparing and contrasting that combination with your Rotel RB-1080/RC-1090 at home? Have you experimented with mixing and matching the components? If so, what were your observations?

Nigel.

**ninja12** · 04 August 2008, 18:15 Monday

Originally posted by bigburner

Hi RotelGuy,

Did you buy the Rotel RC-1082 and RB-1072 for your office? If so, would you mind comparing and contrasting that combination with your Rotel RB-1080/RC-1090 at home? Have you experimented with mixing and matching the components? If so, what were your observations?

Nigel.

I went to one of the local dealers that I normally go to this past weekend. I went into listening room where they had McIntosh Gear set up. I must say that I was very highly disappointed. I'm not disappointed in McIntosh because I know they sound 100 times better that what they were sounding like in that listening room. They had the MC207 amp, the MX136 Pre/Pro, driving B&W 803S, HTM2D Center, some B&W surrounds, and a Velodyne DD 12. The sound was just awful. The room was just reverbarating really really bad. Dialogue was coming from every speaker including the surrounds and the main fronts. The sound was very muddy. The salesperson walk in and said "It sounds really good doesn't it". I asked him if he was joking. He responded no. I don't hear anything wrong with it. So, I asked him how come the dialogue is coming out of every speaker. He responded "It's suppose to be that way". I kindly said "oh, I see. Well, I don't want to keep you from other customers." I left. The moral of the story is that it doesn't matter how expensive your gear is, if it's not set up properly, it's going to sound like crap. Like I said, I know McIntosh gear sounds way better than that because I have heard it. But, I will put my system up against that which includes the Rotel RMB 1095, and I know my system sounds 100 times better than that. I really surprised that the store had it sounding like that. They are normally pretty sharp. However, the people I normally see in there were not there.

Rotel to McIntosh

Rotel to McIntosh

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