Took the plunge

[WI Rotel]

I just ordered a 1069 and a sony BD 2000 ES to replace my 1068. I had been running my Xbox 360 HDDVD through composite connection. Since HDDVD is now dead it was a simple deciscion.
Since the player decodes all High Definition audio formats the 1069 should be able to output the native 7.1 streams perfectly through HMDI. I'll let you guys know how it works out.

[Blindamood]

Not to burst your bubble, but I don't believe the Sony does internal decoding of DTS Master Audio.

[hifiguymi]

Brad is right, the BDP-S2000ES will not decode dtsHD Master Audio (or dts HD). With any dts disc you'll get the core dts track with that player.

Eric

[Mig17]

How your 1069 sound

[Mig17]

Sorry when you receive the 1069 let us know how it sound Wi rotel

[Nolan B]

I just ordered a 1069 and a sony BD 2000 ES to replace my 1068. I had been running my Xbox 360 HDDVD through composite connection. Since HDDVD is now dead it was a simple deciscion.
Since the player decodes all High Definition audio formats the 1069 should be able to output the native 7.1 streams perfectly through HMDI. I'll let you guys know how it works out.

get the PS3... Decodes everything but DTS MA and the rumor is the PS3 will get the upgrade to decode it.

I have my PS3 hooked up to my 1069 and it produces great results.

[joetama]

get the PS3... Decodes everything but DTS MA and the rumor is the PS3 will get the upgrade to decode it.

I have my PS3 hooked up to my 1069 and it produces great results.

How would you hook up the PS3 to the 1069? Analog or ?

[DL86]

Hdmi

[Nolan B]

How would you hook up the PS3 to the 1069? Analog or ?

HMDI

You get both hi rez audio and 1080p video.

[WI Rotel]

Guys I did my homework:

Dolby® TrueHD, dts®-HD Bitstream out over HDMI™
The future of surround sound arrives with Blu-ray Disc technology. With the BDP-S500/BDP-2000ES, you can enjoy incredible new audio codecs from both Dolby Laboratories and Digital Theater Systems (dts). Simply by connecting your Blu-ray Disc player to the HDMI connection on your A/V Receiver, the BDP-S500/BDP-2000ES can either output or internally decode Dolby TrueHD & dts-HD. - Dolby TrueHD delivers lossless studio master quality audio designed specifically for high definition entertainment like Blu-ray Disc movies. An incredible sound stage, dynamic range and a stellar Home Theater experience await you with Dolby TrueHD. - dts-HD gives you sound quality that matches the crystal clear image of Blu-ray Disc media. With up to 7.1 channels of surround sound and audio that is indistinguishable form the original studio version, dts-HD promises you an extraordinary surround experience
:T

[WI Rotel]

Brad is right, the BDP-S2000ES will not decode dtsHD Master Audio (or dts HD). With any dts disc you'll get the core dts track with that player.

Eric

Check above :W

[WI Rotel]

I got my player yesterday but the 1069 will take a few more days.

[Mikael]

Yeap but you will only get DTS HD and not DTS HD master or advance,I dont think there is more than one player who can decode that at this time,To get the DTS HD master you will have to have a processor that can decode the raw bitstream from the player.

[joetama]

HMDI

You get both hi rez audio and 1080p video.

Ok, this is where I am confused...

The 1069 will decode audio input from HDMI? :??


EDIT... Nevermind... I just answered my own question...

[WI Rotel]

Yeap but you will only get DTS HD and not DTS HD master or advance,I dont think there is more than one player who can decode that at this time,To get the DTS HD master you will have to have a processor that can decode the raw bitstream from the player.

DTS master is the same as DTS HD, however to be able to play it using HDMI 1.1 you must decode in the player and pass it to the processor using LPCM. To stream the native signal DTS master code you need HDMI 1.3 which the 1069 does not offer, however, it doesn't matter since the 1069 cannot decode any of the high definition audio formats, thus decoding must be at the player level. A communication that I had with Rotel a few mths ago stated that Rotel will probably not include decoders for those formats any time soon since in their opinion the market is moving to internal player decoding anyway. Thus LPCM stream by HDMI 1.1 is all that will be necessary for the foreseable future.

Also here is how it works from the DTS website:
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dtshd-mast...g-receiver.php

[WI Rotel]

Ok, this is where I am confused...

The 1069 will decode audio input from HDMI? :??


EDIT... Nevermind... I just answered my own question...

The 1069 will not decode any High resolution audio, however, the player will decode it and output the signal via LPCM though the HDMI 1.1 connection. The 1069 will use the its 24 bit/192kHz converters to provide you fully uncompressed 7.1 sound. I'll write an update as soon as I put all the stuff together!
Note that although many BD players will output HD audio, only a select few will decode it themselves. The sony 2000 ES was 1200 USD (ouch). Plus 1500 additional bucks for trading my 1068 for the 1069. However, I should't have to worry about obsolescence any time soon :T Plus I did pay 5K for the Pioneer Elite plasma. This is the final buy for the whole video or audio system till something melts or blows up! :W

[joetama]

The 1069 will not decode any High resolution audio, however, the player will decode it and output the signal via LPCM though the HDMI 1.1 connection. The 1069 will use the its 24 bit/192kHz converters to provide you fully uncompressed 7.1 sound. I'll write an update as soon as I put all the stuff together!
Note that although many BD players will output HD audio, only a select few will decode it themselves. The sony 2000 ES was 1200 USD (ouch). Plus 1500 additional bucks for trading my 1068 for the 1069. However, I should't have to worry about obsolescence any time soon :T Plus I did pay 5K for the Pioneer Elite plasma. This is the final buy for the whole video or audio system till something melts or blows up! :W

Thanks, that clears it up a lot. :T

[Blindamood]

Actually, the player will not decode it. Bitstreaming means that it sends the encoded signal to the processor to be decoded by the processor. The Sony may bitstream the DTS-HD signal, but the Rotel will not decode it, so it is of no use.

BTW, for anyone who is interested, the following site provides a great reference for determining which blu-ray players decode what:

Blu-ray Player Audio Decoding Reference

[Mikael]

No DTS HD and DTS HD Master is not the same

DTS-HD Master Audio is capable of delivering audio that is a bit-for-bit identical to the studio master. DTS-HD Master Audio delivers audio at super high variable bit rates -24.5 mega-bits per second (Mbps) on Blu-ray discs and 18.0 Mbps on HD-DVD - that are significantly higher than standard DVDs . This bit stream is so "fast" and the transfer rate is so "high" that it can deliver the Holy Grail of audio: 7.1 audio channels at 96k sampling frequency/24 bit depths that are identical to the original. With DTS-HD Master Audio, you will be able to experience movies and music, exactly as the artist intended: clear, pure, and uncompromised.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DTS-HD High Resolution Audio can deliver up to 7.1 channels of sound that is virtually indistinguishable from the original. DTS-HD High Resolution Audio delivers audio at high constant bit rates superior to standard DVDs---6.0 Mbps on Blu-ray discs and 3.0 Mbps on HD-DVD to produce outstanding sound quality. It is capable of delivering up to 7.1 channels at 96k sampling frequency/24 bit depth resolution. It allows content creators to deliver rich, high definition audio on movies where disc space may not allow for DTS-HD Master Audio.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DTS Digital Surround is the original DTS decoding format that revolutionized home theater audio. Enhanced dynamic range and improved frequency response combine to create an enveloping surround sound experience for movies and music when compared to competing audio decoding technologies available at the time. You can confidently play DTS-HD encoded discs on a Blu-ray or HD DVD player and use your existing DTS capable receiver to enjoy high quality DTS Digital Surround.

Link to DTS home page.:
http://www.dts.com/dts-hd/dts-on-bluray-and-hddvd.php

[WI Rotel]

Actually, the player will not decode it. Bitstreaming means that it sends the encoded signal to the processor to be decoded by the processor. The Sony may bitstream the DTS-HD signal, but the Rotel will not decode it, so it is of no use.

BTW, for anyone who is interested, the following site provides a great reference for determining which blu-ray players decode what:

Blu-ray Player Audio Decoding Reference

Read again

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=393535&postcount=10

Your info is out of date! :W
Either that or sony lies!

[markov]

what is interesting in Sony's description is that it states "BDP-S500/BDP-2000ES can either output or internally decode Dolby TrueHD & dts-HD." under the section heading Dolby® TrueHD, dts®-HD Bitstream out over HDMI™

[Blindamood]

Read again

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=393535&postcount=10

Your info is out of date! :W
Either that or sony lies!

I'm betting on the latter. Have you read the discussions on avsforum concerning this player? I would check it out to see what the actual owners say. I honestly believe that the wording on Sony's site is misleading.

[hifiguymi]

The BDP-S2000ES will output in bitstream form or decode all forms of Dolby (DD, DD+, and DTHD) but dts is different and a little confusing. That player will output, in bitstream form, dts and dtsHD (sometimes called dtsHD HR) but not dtsHD Master Audio. It will decode internally dts (also called dts core) and dtsHD. If you select PCM out on that BD player, so it will do the decoding, and you play any disc that has a dts, or dtsHD MA soundtrack you will only get the dts core at 1.5Mbps. That is it. If it is a dtsHD it will decode it, but there are very few titles that have that as a soundtrack option. All of Fox's titles that I've seen have dtsHD MA. It's the same with the BDP-S500.

The only player that you can buy today that has internal decoding of all available audio formats on BD is the Denon DVD-3800BDCI (and the Marantz BD-8002 which is the same player). It will be joined by the Panasonic DMP-BD50 in a month, and the Pioneer Elite BD-05FD along the Sony BDP-S550 this summer.

Eric

Note: I did edit this a little about 10 minutes after I posted it.

[WI Rotel]

Its OK. Knowing the film industry all but a minuscule fraction of titles will be Dolby HD anyway! And of course, there will probably be a few firmware updates along the way, as far as I know, there have been 3 updates to date. I went with the sony player since the reviews on the denon have not been too good. Its like DVDA, aside from car audio, there have been very few DVDA home players. Even most discs labelled DVDA are truly DVD 5.1 surround rather than DVDA, in fact, the only DVDA only disc I have (among dozens) which will not play in a regular DVD is a McIntosh sampler.
:T

[Blindamood]

Yeah, I gave up caring for the time being too. I have the Sony BDP-S1, which internally decodes Uncompressed PCM and Dolby TrueHD, but not dtsHD or dts Master Audio. If I'm only listening a dts 'core' track at 1.5Mbps from those discs that don't provide an option for Uncompressed PCM or Dolby TrueHD, that will just have to do!

[cxc21]

Not true. Every BR disc I have seen has at least DTS-HD High Resolution Audio

[Nuthed]

delete.

[Nuthed]

Both types of dtsHD are sometimes mistakenly referred to as dtsHD, I assume because people don't realize there are 2 types.
Where did you find information that the BDP-S2000ES will not bitstream the dtsHD-MA soundtrack?

[hifiguymi]

Both types of dtsHD are sometimes mistakenly referred to as dtsHD, I assume because people don't realize there are 2 types.
Where did you find information that the BDP-S2000ES will not bitstream the dtsHD-MA soundtrack?

From the owners manual.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

Not true. Every BR disc I have seen has at least DTS-HD High Resolution Audio

I don't know about that. Here is a link that has what percentage of discs have what type of audio track.

http://www.blu-raystats.com/stats.php?OrderBy=Audio

Eric

[Nuthed]

From the owners manual.

Eric

Link?

Several times on Sony's site I've noticed contradictions. At one point it specifically mentions that it will bitstream dtsHD-high rez. At other times it says it will bitstream dtsHD. What gives? Is this an older player?

I don't know why it wouldn't be able to bitstream whatever dts codec is on the BR.

I'm not saying it can, just that I haven't found anything saying it definitely can't.

At any rate even if it can't bitstream dtsHD-Master Audio it should just bitstream the dtsHD-high rez since the MA is just an extention on the core and high rez portions.

IOWs if I understand the dts website, all BRs that contain MA also contain HR as well as the core.

[hifiguymi]

Link?

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...mdl=BDPS2000ES

It's on page 48.

You can find the BDP-S500 on that site as well and the chart is the same for that player.

Several times on Sony's site I've noticed contradictions. At one point it specifically mentions that it will bitstream dtsHD-high rez. At other times it says it will bitstream dtsHD. What gives? Is this an older player?

They are the same thing. I wish dts would have named these differently. dtsHD is also called dtsHD HR (for high resolution) but they are both lossy. dtsHD Master Audio is the only lossless one from dts.

I don't know why it wouldn't be able to bitstream whatever dts codec is on the BR.

I'm not saying it can, just that I haven't found anything saying it definitely can't.

At any rate even if it can't bitstream dtsHD-Master Audio it should just bitstream the dtsHD-high rez since the MA is just an extension on the core and high rez portions.

IOWs if I understand the dts website, all BRs that contain MA also contain HR as well as the core.

I'm not exactly sure how it works but from what I understand if a player can't "understand" dtsHD Master Audio it just goes back to the core stream. The player can't just pull the dtsHD extension bits out along with the core and process them. Again, I'm 100% sure of that.

Eric

[Nolan B]

Read again

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=393535&postcount=10

Your info is out of date! :W
Either that or sony lies!

SOny is tricking you with saying DTS HD....which is not lossless and not DTS MA. in fact DTS HD is no better then good oll DTS.

[Nolan B]

Not true. Every BR disc I have seen has at least DTS-HD High Resolution Audio

that is not correct...many BR have regular DD only.

[WI Rotel]

Ok here is the skinny as I can figure it from the manual of the bd 2000 es. If the HDMI audio setting is set to PCM the the player will convert all signals to LPCM including Dolby true HD, DTS HD high resolution and DTS HD Master Audio. 7.1 at 48 Khz and 5.1 at 96Khz. Ergo, it will decode DTS master audio too! Thus the 2000 player will decode all High definition audio codecs, all of them, and since its using LPCM for the transfer all should work dandily through the 1069

[hifiguymi]

SOny is tricking you with saying DTS HD....which is not lossless and not DTS MA. in fact DTS HD is no better then good oll DTS.

That is not the case. dtsHD is still lossy but much less so than standard (or core) dts. Although I have not heard a direct comparison with the same material with dtsHD and dtsHD MA, I have heard a couple of discs that have dtsHD and they sound very good. Far more warm than standard dts.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

Ok here is the skinny as I can figure it from the manual of the bd 2000 es. If the HDMI audio setting is set to PCM the the player will convert all signals to LPCM including Dolby true HD, DTS HD high resolution and DTS HD Master Audio. 7.1 at 48 Khz and 5.1 at 96Khz. Ergo, it will decode DTS master audio too! Thus the 2000 player will decode all High definition audio codecs, all of them, and since its using LPCM for the transfer all should work dandily through the 1069

You are correct that when the player is set to PCM for the HDMI audio out everything is decoded in the player and sent out as a multi-channel PCM. On the chart on page 48 it states that for dts the output is 5.1ch PCM. For dtsHD it states the output is (up to) 7.1ch PCM and in parenthesis it has dtsHD HR in reference to the track it's decoding (just like it does for DD+ and DTHD). For dtsHD MA it just states 5.1ch PCM because it only decodes the core dts.

Eric

[Mikael]

Ok here is the skinny as I can figure it from the manual of the bd 2000 es. If the HDMI audio setting is set to PCM the the player will convert all signals to LPCM including Dolby true HD, DTS HD high resolution and DTS HD Master Audio. 7.1 at 48 Khz and 5.1 at 96Khz. Ergo, it will decode DTS master audio too! Thus the 2000 player will decode all High definition audio codecs, all of them, and since its using LPCM for the transfer all should work dandily through the 1069

That is correct,but I have just read the specs of it at Sonys homepage,and it can only decode DTS HD High Resolution and not DTS HD Master.But if the manuel state that it can decode DTS HD Master,you have all you need.

[hifiguymi]

The manual says it doesn't decode dtsHD MA.

Eric

[Nuthed]

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/mod...mdl=BDPS2000ES

It's on page 48.

You can find the BDP-S500 on that site as well and the chart is the same for that player.


They are the same thing. I wish dts would have named these differently. dtsHD is also called dtsHD HR (for high resolution) but they are both lossy. dtsHD Master Audio is the only lossless one from dts.


I'm not exactly sure how it works but from what I understand if a player can't "understand" dtsHD Master Audio it just goes back to the core stream. The player can't just pull the dtsHD extension bits out along with the core and process them. Again, I'm 100% sure of that.

Eric

dtsHD-HR and dtsHD are not the same thing. There is no such thing as dtsHD, unless you are talking about both of dts's advanced codecs. dtsHD-HR and dtsHD-MA are sometimes mistakenly referred to as dtsHD. I don't believe that most people know there are 2 and that one is lossy while the other is lossless. Oh well.

It appears that it will either decode or bitstream the high resolution extension and internally decode the MA extension into pcm. No bitstream for MA. This is odd, most early players would either do nothing with a lossless dts codec or bitstream it, but not decode it. Kind of a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" approach.

For some reason it will stream regular old dts if asked to bitstream an MA extension.

At any rate it at least will get you a MA or HR track, something my PS3 cannot do......yet.

[Nuthed]

The manual says it doesn't decode dtsHD MA.

Eric

The chart in the manual says it does. Where do you think the 5.1 channel LCPM is coming from?

[cxc21]

Yes it will decode and put out signal, put as I understand it will be data at only 1.5Mbps. Master HD audio is about 25 Mbps on blueray. Therefore quality will be much degraded to regular DD. 17 times less data means less quality. 7.1 at 48khz? That does not sound good. This is exactly why we need this board, the manufactures make it extremely difficult (including Rotel) for the customer to figure out what will not work. The other caveat with decoding players is that if the processor or receiver does not process PCM signals independently a 5.1 disc will not work on a 7.1 system correctly.

[hifiguymi]

dtsHD-HR and dtsHD are not the same thing. There is no such thing as dtsHD, unless you are talking about both of dts's advanced codecs. dtsHD-HR and dtsHD-MA are sometimes mistakenly referred to as dtsHD. I don't believe that most people know there are 2 and that one is lossy while the other is lossless. Oh well.

dtsHD HR is usually referred to as dtsHD. Maybe not by everyone, but most people. dtsHD MA is always referred to as dtsHD MA. I've never seen it differently. I do agree that quite a few people don't realize there is a difference between dtsHD (with or without the HR designation) and dtsHD MA. That is why I said dts should have named them differently. Dolby at least came up with very different names for their codecs.

It appears that it will either decode or bitstream the high resolution extension and internally decode the MA extension into pcm. No bitstream for MA. This is odd, most early players would either do nothing with a lossless dts codec or bitstream it, but not decode it. Kind of a "2 steps forward, 1 step back" approach.

For some reason it will stream regular old dts if asked to bitstream an MA extension.

At any rate it at least will get you a MA or HR track, something my PS3 cannot do......yet.

It will not decode dtsHD MA. It clearly states in the manual that it won't. Under the heading for PCM and the line for dtsHD MA it states that you will get 5.1ch LPCM and does not mention, like it does for DD+, DTHD, dtsHD (HR), dtsHD MA. It will not decode that format. It will not bitstream or decode dtsHD MA. There is only one player, the Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD, that will bitstream dtsHD MA with the Sigma SMP3684 RevA processor. That processor will not decode dtsHD MA.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

The chart in the manual says it does. Where do you think the 5.1 channel LCPM is coming from?

The core dts stream.

[Nuthed]

dtsHD HR is usually referred to as dtsHD. Maybe not by everyone, but most people. dtsHD MA is always referred to as dtsHD MA. I've never seen it differently. I do agree that quite a few people don't realize there is a difference between dtsHD (with or without the HR designation) and dtsHD MA. That is why I said dts should have named them differently. Dolby at least came up with very different names for their codecs.


It will not decode dtsHD MA. It clearly states in the manual that it won't. Under the heading for PCM and the line for dtsHD MA it states that you will get 5.1ch LPCM and does not mention, like it does for DD+, DTHD, dtsHD (HR), dtsHD MA. It will not decode that format. It will not bitstream or decode dtsHD MA. There is only one player, the Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD, that will bitstream dtsHD MA with the Sigma SMP3684 RevA processor. That processor will not decode dtsHD MA.

Eric

I have never heard dtsHD-HR referred to as simply dstHD by any knowlegable person. Only by those people confused by it all.

You are probably correct about the core being sent for MA, this is however very stupid of Sony. At least other players would stream a MA extension for decoding in a receiver or pre/pro.