Is Rotel lost for HR audio?

[Ferry]

After announcements from companies as Onkyo, Pioneer, Sony and Denon that they put receivers and pre-pro’s on the market (some are already on sale) with HDMI 1.3a and the next high resolution audio processing, Rotel is still death silent.
And the specs form the new 1058 receiver aren’t promising either.

Has someone inside information from Rotel, or is another brand the way to go...

I also hope that when implement video switching and up scaling, the start to use better deinterlacers like the HQV chip. Because the present ones aren’t really that good.

[Kevin D]

Rotel isn't anywhere close to the size of the companies you mention. Licensing the new sound formats and HDMI 1.3a costs quite a chunk of change. They can either be prepared to sell millions of units or charge an unreasonable amount of money per unit.

Also, Rotel isn't going to release any information until they have verified every thing they are planning will work. They got burned on their RVE-1070 scaler with the chip manufacturer promising a lot more performance then it was ultimately capable of. Hence the quick release and production of the RVE-1060 with a lower cost chip to recover some of the R&D cost.

There might be some news at CEDIA in September, but expect the 1058 to be the interim solution until next year.

If you require more cutting edge bells and whistles right now, then another brand is the way to go.

Kevin D.

[UFObuster]

question for Kevin re: HR audio

Rotel isn't anywhere close to the size of the companies you mention. Licensing the new sound formats and HDMI 1.3a costs quite a chunk of change. They can either be prepared to sell millions of units or charge an unreasonable amount of money per unit.

Also, Rotel isn't going to release any information until they have verified every thing they are planning will work. They got burned on their RVE-1070 scaler with the chip manufacturer promising a lot more performance then it was ultimately capable of. Hence the quick release and production of the RVE-1060 with a lower cost chip to recover some of the R&D cost.

There might be some news at CEDIA in September, but expect the 1058 to be the interim solution until next year.

If you require more cutting edge bells and whistles right now, then another brand is the way to go.

Kevin D.

I recently gave up a good late model Yammaha in favor of the RSP-1068 because my system is music oriented. HDMI from source to screen solves one problem. Analog audio cables solve another. A couple of questions:
1) If I have a high-rez audio source from an HD-DVD disc (ie Dolby TrueHD, etc), can the 1068 playback those formats using analog inputs?
2) If not, is it theoretically possible that firmware updates would correct this?

Otherwise, I think that video upconverting and scaling is over-hyped in a receiver application when lots of these features are available in the source components like the new Oppos or in feature sets in the new display devices themselves. For audio, what Rotel has is still much better and should remain so I hope if it can be made compatible with the HD audio formats. Your thoughts, Kevin?
Thanks

[AngelEyes]

1) If I have a high-rez audio source from an HD-DVD disc (ie Dolby TrueHD, etc), can the 1068 playback those formats using analog inputs?

As long as your player has analogue outs then yes you can playback uncompressed HD Audio with your RSP 1068. I currently do this with my HTPC and RSP1068

All that is required of a new Processor is 5.1, or better 7.1 LPCM input via HDMI and this only requires HDMI 1.0 not 1.3. The HDMI 1.3 standard would only allow you to process the HD bitstream in your processer (assuming it had that capability) and currently all (almost) HD-DVD and BluRay discs PREVENT that from happening in the way they are authored. The studios want the player to process the Audio for copy protection reasons so that is what we get...

Adam

[Blindamood]

A couple of questions:
1) If I have a high-rez audio source from an HD-DVD disc (ie Dolby TrueHD, etc), can the 1068 playback those formats using analog inputs?

Absolutely! That is how many of us have been enjoying the high-rez playback of SACDs and DVD-Audio for several years now. And, as I mentioned in a recent thread, I recently picked up a Zektor switcher, which allows me to switch between the 5.1 analog outputs of my SACD/DVD-Audio player and my Sony blu-ray player. So, now I can enjoy all of the newer high-rez audio formats.

[AngelEyes]

The only common stumbling block I have come across recently is for those who have purchased a PS3 or player without the analogue connections, however I don't think Rotel can be blamed for that oversight

[UFObuster]

Thanks, keep it coming...
yes, I saw the thread on the Zector switcher....thanks...I was following that.
I'm sure eventually Rotel will upgrade the 1068...but since I'm already locked into literally hundreds of CDs and scores of DVDs, I made the purchase to enjoy what I already own....just making plans for the future.
Looking forward to what you can add, Kevin.
Thanks again,
Roger

[Blindamood]

The only common stumbling block I have come across recently is for those who have purchased a PS3 or player without the analogue connections, however I don't think Rotel can be blamed for that oversight

That's the main reason I went for the BDP-S1 over the PS3. Now I'm glad I did. :W

[Kevin D]

1) If I have a high-rez audio source from an HD-DVD disc (ie Dolby TrueHD, etc), can the 1068 playback those formats using analog inputs?
2) If not, is it theoretically possible that firmware updates would correct this?

As others have said, analog is analog. If the player has analog outs and the decoders, you're set. The down-side is you will have to setup the crossover, level, and delay settings in the player.

And as Adam said, it looks like most discs are going to force the player to do the decoding anyway. This puts the best case scenario of sending a decoded multi-channel PCM signal over HDMI, something the 1058 is reported to be capable of.

The PCM via HDMI solution will only present a marginal improvement in sound (if any at all) over using the multi-channel outputs, unless the DACs in the player are horrible.

Otherwise, I think that video upconverting and scaling is over-hyped in a receiver application when lots of these features are available in the source components like the new Oppos or in feature sets in the new display devices themselves. For audio, what Rotel has is still much better and should remain so I hope if it can be made compatible with the HD audio formats. Your thoughts, Kevin?
Thanks

The unfortunate truth is now that scalers are cheap enough for the masses (and the worst ones still better then the best ones 5 years ago), they're really not needed. With a slew of devices all ready in a high resolution, most HD cable and DSS boxes only allowing one resolution at a time, and like you said most non-hd devices having a nice scaler in them anyway.

The people that complain about the the RVE-1060 (and 1058's scaler) not being the best chipset are not the people they are marketed to. The people who want that extra 10% of picture quality (and probably study test patterns) need to get an external scaler they can change out every 3 months. I've seen people recommend a scaler, but I've never seen someone recommend a SOUND processor because of it's scaler. The way I see it, the built in scaler (or 1060) is a convenient way to insure optimal resolution on all sources with the convenience of a single output.

Kevin D.

[Nolan B]

That's the main reason I went for the BDP-S1 over the PS3. Now I'm glad I did. :W

You may come to regret that decision in October when BD-J 1.1 gets released and renders all current BD players obsolete. No current Blue Ray players (even the ones made by sony) will be able to be upgrade. The PS3 is the only one with a hope.

[AngelEyes]

It won't render them obselete at playing back BD films and after seeing some Interactive content so far I can't really say it would bother me all that much but then I use an HTPC anyway so don't have to worry about it

I find it annoying that BD is allowed to come to market half finished, with no formal specification, just to try and spoil HD-DVD. If the layman actually understood what BD was tryin g to sell them maybe thay would have opted for HD-DVD and we wouldn't have this stupid format war... sorry rant over

[Blindamood]

You may come to regret that decision in October when BD-J 1.1 gets released and renders all current BD players obsolete. No current Blue Ray players (even the ones made by sony) will be able to be upgrade. The PS3 is the only one with a hope.

I don't think I'll be losing any sleep... :roll:

[Ferry]

Hmmm, A analoge 5.1 switch…

The 1098 has 1 multi-channel input and I need 3.
So that means 4, 5.1-sets of high quality audio cables.
4 x 6 = a total 24 audio cables (next upgrade, I can start a store).

Btw a single audio chip who does all the HR audiocodecs, is about 7 dollar.

But thanks for the advice, and the other brand I found is the Integra 9.8 http://integrahometheater.com/model....&m=DTC-9.8&p=i

And with a rumored price of 1600 dollar, makes it very attractive.

Has balanced outputs too for connecting the 1090 and 1095 amp.

[Kevin D]

Btw a single audio chip who does all the HR audiocodecs, is about 7 dollar.

Sure, in quantities way larger then Rotel would need. In addition, that doesn't cover the possible hundreds of thousands it's going to cost to license the newest Dolby and DTS modes (and even being able to stamp 1.3 after the HDMI logo).

Rotel is a surprisingly small company and isn't going to make a move until it's financially viable.

Kevin D.

[Nuthed]

If you require more cutting edge bells and whistles right now, then another brand is the way to go.

Kevin D.

Cutting edge bells and whistles and inferior sound quality.

[Ferry]

Hummmm…. I don’t think so. I have the Rotel 1098 and it sounds good, but not that good.
Most recent receivers in de higher segment will out perform the 1098 at prices that are less than half of the 1098.

Btw it uses high quality component the Burr-brown PCM1769 as 24bit/192 kHz on all 7-channels.

And it will have a lower noise level as the 1098.

It has almost everything mentioned in the wish list started more than 2 years ago.

[Andrew M Ward]

Btw a single audio chip who does all the HR audiocodecs, is about 7 dollar.

But thanks for the advice, and the other brand I found is the Integra 9.8 http://integrahometheater.com/model....&m=DTC-9.8&p=i

Based on this post you need to be an Integra buyer... Rotel cannot play along with those companies - Denon Yamaha Sony Pioneer Onkyo Philips Panasonic Matsushita

Rotel has pulled back quite a bit after observing all the debacles forwarded by the big seven...

Rotel will continue to remain small and focus on good sounding simple products with higher grade power supplies and simple functional topologies, any other approach would be folly

Keep in mind: Both Sony and Pioneer lost over a million dollars a week last year in their electronics divisions - playing their own game, the game they invented... and the company that owns Denon DM Holdings continues to bleed red ink... Onkyo is just now recovering from 2005 losses and Philips continues to struggle after getting creamed in 2006... Not impressive

Image how much it costs small companies to try and play along when the big guys lose money at the very game they invented...
Rotel is in a good position to remain stable and ride out this wave of ever-changing-feature-sets and let the big guys do what they do – As I am fond of saying: Rotel has been charging more and providing less features for over 25 years… focusing on Sound Quality and Good solid Power Amplifiers

just my 2 cents

[Kevin D]

Hummmm…. I don’t think so. I have the Rotel 1098 and it sounds good, but not that good.
Most recent receivers in de higher segment will out perform the 1098 at prices that are less than half of the 1098.

Btw it uses high quality component the Burr-brown PCM1769 as 24bit/192 kHz on all 7-channels.

And it will have a lower noise level as the 1098.

It has almost everything mentioned in the wish list started more than 2 years ago.

So I have to ask, if you can get a new receiver for for half the price of the 1098 that: has better sound, better components, lower noise, and more features. Why do you still have a 1098 and why would you be interested in any new Rotel products that still won't do what the above receiver will??

Kevin D.

[wkhanna]

As I am fond of saying: Rotel has been charging more and providing less features for over 25 years… focusing on Sound Quality and Good solid Power Amplifiers

As for me, see my signature....

And Mr Ward, have you been over-medicated lately? Your sincerity is quite out of character!

[hifiguymi]

I agree with Andrew. As nice as it was having Denon and Pioneer Elite receivers to sell with HDMI switching for the last couple of years they are not without fault. I'm sure people that have purchased them will complain in a year or two that those receivers don't have enough HDMI inputs, don't have good scalers, are only HDMI 1.1, etc. Rotel is not big enough to do those things wrong and survive. Performance needs to come first. For Rotel to add a new feature here and there when it first becomes available is a losing proposition. I can wait a little bit to get the features I want as long as the performance is up to what Rotel can deliver.

On the performance note, Ferry. I'm sorry, but I don't know of any receiver that will outperform the RSP-1098. The RSP-1098 is a wonderful preamp and the surround sound processing is WAY better than any receiver I've heard. That includes the AVR5805CI from Denon. That is a great receiver and at $7200.00 it should be, but the surround processor is still not as good as the RSP-1098. Once the new line up is introduced this fall/winter Rotel will leap into the forefront again.

Eric

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Just to add to what hifiguyni said, I too have been a little frustrated.... Wanting all that HDMI switching etc... Earlier this year I did a direct comparison swapping a RSP-1098 for the latest Denon 5805CI and there was no comparison... The soundstage of the Denon just collapsed and lost the 3D feel that the RSP-1098 delivers... And as for Channel... even worse... Now the Denon is good on its own.... Very good as a receiver.... But the Rotel is a step up again.....

So I am waiting..... And next year (or whenever) I will swap.... Because for me the sound is so important... I can plug the HDMI into the FV or whatever... But the sound... The sound... that makes the experience...

Geoff

[Ron Reda]

Wow, you guys made me feel a LOT better about not having all the new bells & whistles. I was thinking about getting a universal HD player (sadly not a "true" universal player that plays DVD-A/V, SACD, HD-DVD AND BR) and now it appears that I can do so with my current RSP-1066 and one of those nice Zektor switching untis. I am eternally grateful!!! ;x(

[AngelEyes]

Hi Chaps,

Can you confirm that the RSP1068 does not retain the speaker level, delays and Crossover settings when using the 7.1 analogue inputs?

I seem to remember there are some settings in the Multi Input menu...?

I am interested in the Samsung BD UP5000 as a source but it does not support these features within the player

Thanks,

Adam

[Blindamood]

I can confirm that the RSP-1068 does not provide speaker level, delay, or crossover settings for the Multi Input. The only option you have is to turn on the LFE REDIRECT. Here is the text from the manual that drescribes this (from the Multi Input Setup menu):

One additional option, LFE REDIRECT, provides an alternative bass management configuration. Typically, the eight channels of the MULTI INPUT are configured as pure analog bypass signals, going straight from the inputs to the volume control and the preamp outputs, bypassing all of the digital processing. There are no crossovers and no bass management; therefore, whatever signal goes into the subwoofer channel will be sent to the subwoofer preamp output.

This configuration may not be ideal for multichannel systems configured with high-pass speakers, redirecting bass to a powered subwoofer. An option, called LFE REDIRECT, sends the seven main channels directly to the outputs as usual. In addition, it takes a duplicate copy of these seven channels, combines them into mono, and routes them through a 100 Hz analog low-pass crossover to the subwoofer preamp output. This creates a summed mono subwoofer signal, derived from the seven main channels of the MULTI INPUT.

Use the LFE REDIRECT off for the pure analog bypass configuration. Use the LFE REDIRECT on setting to derive the mono summed subwoofer output.

[AngelEyes]

Thanks for the confirmation, however unwelcome

Adam

[Blindamood]

I am currently looking at the Samsung BD-UP5000 also, and would be pretty surprised if it doesn't at least let you select 'Small' vs. 'Large' for the speaker setup. This would invoke an internal crossover, such as 100 Hz. This is how my Sony BDP-S1 currently operates, and it works fine for me. My speakers are fairly equidistant, so the distance and level settings are not mandatory for me.

Update: Looks like the Samsung will provide an internal crossover. See page 40 of the user manual:

Samsung BD-UP5000

(BTW, have you seen the pre-order for the Samsung on OneCall? Currently priced at $799, with free shipping and a $25 holiday promotion as well. I got in yesterday at this price, hoping it will be shipping within the next month or so.)

[snowboarder]

(BTW, have you seen the pre-order for the Samsung on OneCall? Currently priced at $799, with free shipping and a $25 holiday promotion as well. I got in yesterday at this price, hoping it will be shipping within the next month or so.)

Sorry to jump in, but for that price you can get both Toshiba A35
and Panasonic BD30 - two best players on the market right now,
not some unreliable combo player. With two respective players you
will get tons of free movies depending on a deal, you will get nothing with
Samsung. Both are very slim so you're not saving any space.
Both send bitstream hirez audio, but of course for that you need something
more modern than a Rotel receiver... Well, they make great amps,
at least something

[Blindamood]

Except that I use 5.1 analog outs, and I don't feel like buying 6 more cables.

[snowboarder]

Except that I use 5.1 analog outs, and I don't feel like buying 6 more cables.

If your receiver supported HDMI, you would have one cheap cable from
each device, including SACD player (Oppo 980H).
Your savings made on all the interconnects are probably enough to buy
a new receiver

[AngelEyes]

If our Processor supported hdmi we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Blindamood]

You may come to regret that decision in October when BD-J 1.1 gets released and renders all current BD players obsolete. No current Blue Ray players (even the ones made by sony) will be able to be upgrade. The PS3 is the only one with a hope.

Now that 1.1 capabilities are starting to show, I just wanted to post the following review (thanks to bluray.com), so that owner's of 'pre-1.1' blu-ray players can rest easy knowing they're players will NOT be rendered obsolete.

Bonus View Exposed: Resident Evil: Extinction

Following is the key excerpt: "Despite what some people have warned about, a non-Bonus View player will not explode upon reading a Bonus View disc."

[Nuthed]

Post deleted.