SACD/DVD-A on a 1068

[chanlon]

Hey guys,

I currenly use Rotel RSX-972 receiver coupled with a 1075 for the anchor in my system. As my SACD collection continues to increase, I've been considering changing my 972 reciever for a dedicated pre-amp/processor. There is absolutley no low freqency performance on multichannel encoded SACD's using the multi-analog input on the 972. From what I read, its simply due to the software (i.e SACD) since a lot of these titles are 5.0 and not 5.1. Furthermore, the Rotel receiver does not have an option to redirect the bass to the sub channel on this model. However, my experience is SACD's often lack real puch even when I'm using 5 large, full-range speakers. I would love to get my B&W sub in the action a bit more.

Finally - MY QUESTION :-) How does the bass-redirect function work on the 1068 in regards to the multi-input? Who out there is using it and what are your comments?

Thanks guys!
Chris

[Mark]

hi chris, i'm running a 1066 pro with multicannel sacd and loving it. what specifically would you like to know/how may i help re the subwoofer and bass mangement overall??

cheers-mark

[chanlon]

Hi Mark,

Just wondering when you are listening to an SACD on the multi-analog input, are you getting what you would consider ample bass from the sub channel? I've done a lot of reading on bass management and all of its issues as a result of a lack of a digital connection. And to be frank, it gets awful confusing :-)

Right now, I only get sub action on a few SACD's (i.e multi-channel Dark Side of the Moon and Toys in the Attic). The Dylan SACD collection for example is a "no show" from my sub on both the 2-channel and multi-channel encoded discs. I feel the sound is real hollow. Basically I want to know whether the bass-redirect function on either the 1066 or 1068 will engage the sub for both 2-channel and multi-channel SACDs? Or is this simply determined by whether the SACD has been encoded with a low-frequency channel.

Thanks in advance.

[Mark]

mon 3m/1

i agree it is confusing...running a rsp 1066 via the multi input i am receiving plenty of bass thru the sub on my multichannel and 2 channel sacds. i have no issues with that at all. imho i can say that the 1066 has a lot of options or adjustments in terms of tweaking the levels or setting the crossover etc. it even allows you to adjust/tweak the sub differently for each input. i also think that what you hear is determined by your software and the manner in which a piece was recorded and engineered. if you would like to discuss further you may give me a ring at my office anytime...212-450-0373...as it's sometimes difficult in this type post to fully address questions. please do not hesitate to call if you wish.

regards-mark

[chanlon]

Thanks for your assistance on this issuel. I'm still reading through the info and solutions on the web.
I'm assuming when you listen to your SACD player, you have its settings on large for all speakers and sub selected to the "on" position.
Then, you do the bass-redirect feature on the Rotel to send the signal to the sub? If this is correct, can you further select the crossover frequency for this sub signal? I believe your speakers however do receive a full frequency?

Anybody know if the new Crystal processor in the 1098/1068 does this a little different than the 1066?

Thanks again,
Chris

[aud19]

As far as I know, to get bass from your subwoofer on SACD's/DVD-A's with no LFE information you have to set your speakers to small sub to yes/on in the player so it redirects any bass below the crossover to the sub output. The 1066 just acts as a volume regulator with total passthrough of the signal. (Other than the infamous bass doubling issue in the 1066/1055. The new products do not have this issue from what I've gleaned)

I personally run my player all speakers large, no sub as I have relatively bass capable speakers and prefer my music sans sub, multi-channel or otherwise.

Jason




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[aud19]

Additionally if you are still craving more bass and running, as you stated, full range speakers the 1066's bass doubling issue might just be perfect for you. In that scenario you would run everything full range, sub yes/on and the bass doubling would automatically copy any bass below 100Hz being sent your speakers and also send it to your subwoofer along with any LFE signal it was already getting. That is of course unless your 1066 already had the bass doubling issue "fix" done. This isn't the "truest" way to listen to the music as you artificially adding bass that the artists did not intend for you to hear. I'm sure any audiophiles who read this will likely faint, but if that's what YOU prefer than have at it Just don't say I didn't add that little disclaimer there

Jason




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[chanlon]

Thanks for your help!

[aud19]

Your welcome Let us know how it all works out.

Jason




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[karlie]

You make it sound like erything is perfect in a perfect world....

But I am not overly confident of using a Rotel with a SACD player, because what Rotel says is: "Don't ask us to do it, use your SACD player".

To do Bass Management for SACD there are two solutions available:
- Analog Domain
- PCM domain (no DSD Domain yet).

Currently I have proper Analog Domain bass management (DSP-A1) and that's what kept me from going towards Rotel.

PCM domain Bass Managemement requires an up conversion to more that 192kHz and basically a full processor (happily the processor has nothing else to at the same time).

SACD players with optional Bass Management are going to become more and more available, but they are not yet (plus there are all the other models)
But if you get one to be able to have Bass Management on your Rotel, remember that the SACD player needs to convert from DSD domain to PCM domain.

Since Rotel's strength is more in Analog Domain than digital Domain (it uses stanadard decoders), I wish they spent time on a proper Analog Domain Bass Management, rather than ask us to trust Digital Domain conversions and filters.

Now if only I could get an ICBM (in the rest of the World, outside USA)...

PS: May be Bass-Management without domain conversion can become a strenght of DVD-A, but they really need to work on the interface side (menus, slow, urgh...)

[aud19]

IMO most audiophiles don't want analog bass management and as far as I know, in most equipment it isn't available. The "Bass doubling" was Rotel's way of trying to implement some sort of quassi analog bass management. Thankfully on the new models it's optional rather than default. Until recently with a select few receivers and pre/pro's and the corresponding players allowing digital bass management almost all receivers and pre/pro's rely on players to perform bass management. Unfortunately most of those players, especially for SACD for some reason, have poor bass management and time delay capabilities. I hardly see Rotel's "fault" in this.

Jason




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[SomaJoe]

Someone mentioned the ICBM in a previous post. Have you considered one? I'm using one (with the 1066 BM fix).




Joe's HT

[Robert]

Assuming the bass management fix, would placing the ICBM between the RSP-1066 preouts and amp extend its function to both multi-channel analog output and digital output, or should the ICBM remain exclusively between the audio source unit and the EXT in of the 1066? Any relevant information would be appreciated.

[SomaJoe]

Assuming the bass management fix, would placing the ICBM between the RSP-1066 preouts and amp extend its function to both multi-channel analog output and digital output, or should the ICBM remain exclusively between the audio source unit and the EXT in of the 1066? Any relevant information would be appreciated.

It can be placed either way; but another question first: what kind of sub do you have exactly? Does it have high level inputs?




Joe's HT

[Ossi]

The ICBM still has a weak point: It does not do any time alignment.
This bring it really down to get a player doing it. Sony DVP 999ES or SCD 9000ES or Denon DVD 5900.
Time alignment is of equal importance ( if not even more important) as bass redirection is.

[Robert]

Yes, I have high-level inputs, but I have been using the digital line-in. Another downside is that the subwoofer does not have a bypass filter. As per ICBM instructions, I turn the frequency range control all the way over for multi-channel playback. It sounds like moving the ICBM between the preamp and amp would make the unit's function universal to all sound applications. Is this correct? I'm one of those heretics that prefer cds in DPL II mode, as opposed to stereo (bless me Father for I have sinned).

Ossi makes a good point, but the ICBM instructions suggest adjusting all distance settings to zero. And perhaps that is precisely his issue. Timing never seems to be a problem as my "sweet spot" is only 6-8 feet from any one speaker. I have a Denon 2900 which allows bass frequency adjustment to 80Hz, but I like the additional latitude of the ICBM. Denon 5900 owners have the good fortune of adjusting bass to 40Hz, which would make all of this a moot point.

[Robert]

Yes, I have high-level inputs, but I have been using the digital line-in. Another downside is that the subwoofer does not have a bypass filter. As per ICBM instructions, I turn the frequency range control all the way over for multi-channel playback. It sounds like moving the ICBM between the preamp and amp would make the unit's function universal to all sound applications. Is this correct? I'm one of those heretics that prefer cds in DPL II mode, as opposed to stereo (bless me Father for I have sinned).

Ossi makes a good point, but the ICBM instructions suggest adjusting all distance settings to zero. And perhaps that is precisely his issue. Timing never seems to be a problem as my "sweet spot" is only 6-8 feet from any one speaker. I have a Denon 2900 which allows bass frequency adjustment to 80Hz, but I like the additional latitude of the ICBM. Denon 5900 owners have the good fortune of adjusting bass to 40Hz, which would make all of this a moot point.

[SomaJoe]

Yes, I have high-level inputs, but I have been using the digital line-in. Another downside is that the subwoofer does not have a bypass filter. As per ICBM instructions, I turn the frequency range control all the way over for multi-channel playback. It sounds like moving the ICBM between the preamp and amp would make the unit's function universal to all sound applications. Is this correct? I'm one of those heretics that prefer cds in DPL II mode, as opposed to stereo (bless me Father for I have sinned).

Ossi makes a good point, but the ICBM instructions suggest adjusting all distance settings to zero. And perhaps that is precisely his issue. Timing never seems to be a problem as my "sweet spot" is only 6-8 feet from any one speaker. I have a Denon 2900 which allows bass frequency adjustment to 80Hz, but I like the additional latitude of the ICBM. Denon 5900 owners have the good fortune of adjusting bass to 40Hz, which would make all of this a moot point.

I think I've confused you with the original poster, who asking specifically about BM and SACD.

I don't know anything about cd's in DPL II. I don't have time alignment issues with the ICBM as my speakers are all equidistant.




Joe's HT

[SomaJoe]

Yes, I have high-level inputs, but I have been using the digital line-in. Another downside is that the subwoofer does not have a bypass filter. As per ICBM instructions, I turn the frequency range control all the way over for multi-channel playback. It sounds like moving the ICBM between the preamp and amp would make the unit's function universal to all sound applications. Is this correct? I'm one of those heretics that prefer cds in DPL II mode, as opposed to stereo (bless me Father for I have sinned).

Ossi makes a good point, but the ICBM instructions suggest adjusting all distance settings to zero. And perhaps that is precisely his issue. Timing never seems to be a problem as my "sweet spot" is only 6-8 feet from any one speaker. I have a Denon 2900 which allows bass frequency adjustment to 80Hz, but I like the additional latitude of the ICBM. Denon 5900 owners have the good fortune of adjusting bass to 40Hz, which would make all of this a moot point.

I think I've confused you with the original poster, who asking specifically about BM and SACD.

I don't know anything about cd's in DPL II. I don't have time alignment issues with the ICBM as my speakers are all equidistant.




Joe's HT

[karlie]

I hardly see Rotel's "fault" in this.

Of course it's not theit fault if the BM in players are not too good;

however I wish they were doing better in that domain as they do in others.

I find that even for music with my large speakers I have better/tighter bass when they are redirected to the SW; i find it especially important because these days every one mixes with very high bass level, it seems.

BM is certainly not the perfect solution but so far, it's worked best for me.