Results of my CD v SACD test

**Ricky** · 29 March 2003, 11:00 Saturday

I don't think there are night and day differences between every recording. And I'm not sure if the regular HK 520 inputs are pure analog passthrough.

**Danbry39** · 29 March 2003, 14:46 Saturday

Very interesting post. I have no idea as of yet in that I'm uninitiated as of yet. I just hooked up my DVDA on my Denon 1600 a couple of weeks ago and have only one DVDA recording at this time - Vivaldi's Four Seasons - but that doesn't play on my CD player, so I'm left to kind of guess. I do know that it was highly rated for its sonics, but, to be honest, I have some CD's that sound as nice. I have ordered a few DVDA's from AIX and have heard that they're extremely nicely recorded. I've also ordered the new Emmylou Harris DVDA and maybe am going to order Buena Vista Social Club a bit later today. I'll be able to better assess just how good the sound gets (given the limitations of my equipment) and, although not directly, relate how it sounds to my ears as compared to the best of my redbook CD's. Glad to hear your impressions though and, dang, some of these DVDA's are expensive suckers. :banghead:

Keith

**Danbry39** · 29 March 2003, 22:48 Saturday

Well, two of the DVD-A's I ordered came in the mail today, Nitty Gritty and The Latin Jazz Trio, as well as an AIX sampler. Only have had time to get into the Nitty Gritty. Here I was thinking that it was a good sounding recording, but not the best I heard, when I read that the DVD-A recording was on the other side of the disc. I don't know if it's the wonderful, intoxicating music or the quality of sound, but something sure is happening with this recording. It's superb and much more like the musicians are here in the room with me, so I guess I'm going to have to wait and see more, but, honestly, this is one fine recording. Can't wait until Buena Vista Social Club and Emmylou Harris arrive. For those who aren't familiar with her work, Ms. Harris sings like an angel sent down from heaven.

Keith

**Burke Strickland** · 30 March 2003, 04:00 Sunday

Originally posted by Danbry39

Can't wait until Buena Vista Social Club and Emmylou Harris arrive. For those who aren't familiar with her work, Ms. Harris sings like an angel sent down from heaven.

Which Emmylou Harris album(s) are you getting? Wrecking Ball? Spyboy? Red Dirt Girl? Producer's Cut? I am convinced Emmylou IS an angel sent down from heaven. :>) She has appeared onstage with Allison Kraus (or, more accurately, it was vice versa) :>) and both have magical voices.

Burke

**sfdoddsy** · 30 March 2003, 05:45 Sunday

I have the AIXs you mentioned. While a bit placid musically for my tastes, the recordings are very fine.

Steve

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**sattothestars** · 30 March 2003, 07:10 Sunday

You have 2 problems with the systems.If the 655 s based on the same topoloy as the the 47A it is not a real SACD player as it converts DSD back to PCM .The 520 does not have true analog bypass like the 525 does.Therefore you cannot reap the benefits of SACD.A true DSD transfer will always be better than any PCM recording I have heard.

JLF sattothestars

**sfdoddsy** · 30 March 2003, 08:55 Sunday

I think the 655A has different topology to the 47A. According to the review in Hi Fi News it uses Burr-Brown PCM 1738 DACs for the front and Burr-Brown PCM1702s for surround. SACD is handled by a Sony CXD2753 DSD decoder. I hope that means SACD is handled natively because that's why I got it.

Again, with the H/K AVR520 I got it because of the 5.1 analog bypass. Are you sure about the redigitizing? It would certainly explain the results I suppose. I've emailed H/K in the (probably vain) hope of a definitive answer. In any case I'll try the test again with an analog 5.1 preamp I have in the other system.

Cheers

Steve

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**Danbry39** · 30 March 2003, 10:59 Sunday

Burke,

The Emmylou Harris I ordered is Producer's Cut. I'm pretty sure that the man in black (Johnny Cash) is on one of the selections. Should be here this week.

Keith

**JonMarsh** · 30 March 2003, 13:53 Sunday

First, I'd use the same deck for listening to CD and SACD- otherwise, you have too many variables, and you're doing the equivalant of comparing two different CD players trying to decide if two masterings of the same CD sound different. Take a few passes through each cut.

The 1738 is a sort of "hybrid" beast; it's a Segmented Architecture DAC - Upper 6 bits are converted with a PCM architecture. Lower 18 bits are converted with a 5-level Sigma-Delta architecture operating at 11.2896 MHz. This part is also used in the Ayre CX-7, and with Ayre's low jitter clock and non feedback balanced differential D/A, sounds very good on redbook material- rivals CDP's DAC's costing twice as much.

The 1738 is not a DSD converter, but does have an interface to a DSD decoder, which again, is what Pioneer is using. It's a better impelmentation with better converters, but the actual D/A is still done by BB PCM DACs, as was the case in the 47A. Sorry guys.

If you want to do some good comparisons, a few suggestions.

Get a real SACD player. They aren't perfect either, most have significant implementation isues still (other than the DCS Elgar DAC and the Meitner DAC), but the Sony style D/A (which Philips; also uses) seems to be more "faithful" to the signal than decoding fed to PCM DACs.

For making comparisons, get a good passive preamp. Marchand PR41 is the cheapest really classy one I know of. Sorry, analog bypass on a movie Pre-Pro with opamps, electrolytic caps in the signal path, etc., isn't for reference grade evaluations. Remember, those are the parts that the tweakers are replacing with upgraded parts or getting rid of when they hop up their CD or SACD players. :W

Last, what are you using for Power amps? Hmm, looked at your profile. Not to be a poop head (well, maybe I AM a poop head!), but everyone I've ever demo'd an Ayre V5 for has readily heard a marked difference in transparency and naturalness compared with conventional feedback solid state designs. (even my girl friend who couldn't give a rat's patootie about HiFi....)

Seriously, I'm just pointing out again that there are a lot of variables involved, and to try to evaluate serious source components and the differences requires stringent methods and components elsewhere. (let's not even bring up interconnects and speaker cables and their affect on system behavior)

Now, if what you're really trying to do is to decide if SACD at the price point you're likely to buy it at is a factor in your system, or whether the "degradation" from the additional electronics is a big deal, then I think you already have your answer- with the rest of the stuff in the system, it's probably not.

But on a relatively modest speaker system (8" two way) with a passive preamp and not an opamp in sight, both SACD and CD can be much better than what most people hear.

Redigitizing an analog signal and evaluating if you're losing anything would probably best be done by setting up your two channels of Crossover EQ in this way- plug the output of one into the input of the other, setup some complementary inverse EQ curves (to get the DSP working) and setup so that the combined output was measuring flat (within a tenth of a dB) at the output, level match, and do a straight wire bypass test using the best source you have available (borrow something high end from a dealer?) with reference grade headhpones, such as Sennheiser HD600's, or Sony MDR-F1's. If you don't hear any change or degradation in the signal, you're in like flint!

Or, if you really need a quick system tune up, do as I do, an pop open a good grade of beer, or uncork a nice vintage bottle, sit down and relax and drink a bit, and listen to the music... that's why we're here, anyway, isnt it?

~Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**sfdoddsy** · 30 March 2003, 20:28 Sunday

Jon,

Stop trying to make me spend money!

I was actually deliberately trying it with the HT gear to see if the differences were worth worrying about. I have a Sony TAP9000ES in the main system which I'll do another quick comparison on.

However, I have to say that if the differences are not immediately apparent using a $500 SACD player of whatever quality, a $1000 receiver, and a $2000 power amp then I wouldn't hold my breath for the success of either SACD or DVD-A with your average punter, except from a multichannel point of view.

Cheers

Steve

;b>'> + :boozer: = :T

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**Hank** · 31 March 2003, 00:31 Monday

Jon: an excellent, lucid post! BTW, I hope you've received the ASB CD I mailed you a couple of weeks ago via our trustworthy USPS.

I'm considering looking for a Sony 555es CD player and ordering a tweaker clock board (LC?) so that I can jump into the SACD foray.
As to your last question - yes, it's about the music, s_____!
I've determined why I don't have "Golden Ears": I'm a musician, and I've played in large ensembles for a long time. What happens is that when I listen to a recording, be it tape, vinly or CD, I *hear* instruments in my head, instead of *hearing* the recording! My mind fills in the missing acute fidelity of live instruments. The result is that I have a problem comparing medium, components, interconnects, amps sources, etc, etc, etc because NOTHING sound like live performance on REAL intruments on a STAGE. Please help me transform into a *Golden Ear*, so that I can fit in! :LOL:

**sfdoddsy** · 31 March 2003, 02:49 Monday

Hank,

I used to play clarinet in a symphonic band as well. And then sax in a reggae band for too many years. Maybe we're both ruined for serious listening.

:boohoo:

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**SamS** · 31 March 2003, 03:13 Monday

Originally posted by jonmarsh

The 1738 is not a DSD converter, but does have an interface to a DSD decoder, which again, is what Pioneer is using. It's a better impelmentation with better converters, but the actual D/A is still done by BB PCM DACs, as was the case in the 47A. Sorry guys.

Jon, I'm a bit confused by your above statement. Are you saying the DV47A/Ai coverts the DSD bitstream to PCM somewhere in the BB1738?

Also, I'm still trying to get a handle on what the BB1738 does with 16/44.1K signals. No chance it's converting them to DSD, right?

FWIW, I'm using Sony's XA777ES player (with great results!).

**Brandon B** · 31 March 2003, 12:16 Monday

Originally posted by Hank

I'm considering looking for a Sony 555es CD player and ordering a tweaker clock board (LC?) so that I can jump into the SACD foray.

I've got an untweaked one of these and like it.

Also, any Pink Floyd fans, the new SACD Dark Side of the Moon is pretty nice. $11.99 at Best Buy right now. And on my system, I can hear a small difference between the PCM and DSD layers. So on a better one, it may be more marked,

BB

**JonMarsh** · 31 March 2003, 13:52 Monday

Hi Sam,

You can download the 1738 datasheet from TI easily enough and enjoy it in all it's gory details!

Now, IMO, this is one of TI's better "bang for the buck" DAC's; some purists would argue that the 1704 is king, (let's leave the upcoming 1792 out of the discussion), but the 1738 has an excellent combination of performance versus cost- in major part, I belive, due to the way it combines PCM and delta-sigma (MASH) techniques.

The 1738 doesn't have a DSD input- it does have an input to work with a DSD decoder chip. Whether working with convetional 16 to 24 bit PCM, or the decoded DSD, the 1738 uses the segmented DAC architecture described above for all conversions.

Many/most Sony players actually have a converter chip which upconverts redbook PCM to DSD, and then uses the DSD DAC for all the output conversions, whether the source is SACD or Redbook CD.

Now, since DSD is a modified one bit technique, using multi-level encoding (at the ADC end), you could make the arguement that the 1738 is converting Redbook PCM into a mix of PCM and one bit that is sort of similar to DSD... but it isn't DSD, per se. Nor are the conventional delt-sigma DAC's that do upconversion or oversampling, such as the chipsets from Crystal Semiconductor, though those are a bit closer in implementation- and the CS122 and CS4397 are pretty good parts in their own right.

But it takes a lot more than just a chip- all the surrounding components, regulators, bypass caps, clocks, etc, and analog circuitry have to be well optimized to get the best results. That means multiple independent regulated supplies, with high quality bypass (I like OSCON caps with stacked FILM bypass myself).

Even relatively "modest" converter chipsets like the CS4390 (24/96) can produce very nice sound, if in an "optimized" environment- (think extra measures taken with the reciever or using a CS8420 to reclock the input with a stable low jitter reference clock), a low jitter transport, and transformer isolated NFB output electronics. (the transformer provides a 200 kHz Bessel filter as well as isolation of the digital and analog output).

BTW, I have an SCD777ES. It's still a pretty decent beast as SACD players go; someday I'm going to go into it, but I've been too busy with outboard DAC projects and speakers to have time yet. Also, I'm going to tweak my XA7ES first with some of the things I've been figuring out, see how that works before taking the plunge with the SACD player.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**sfdoddsy** · 31 March 2003, 21:00 Monday

Well, I did the test again, this time using the Sony TAP-9000ES and the Pioneer for both CD and SACD. I played complete tracks from the Telarc SACD sampler in CD, SACD and then multichannel.

I think I may have boo-booed before using the other CD player, and may even have been listening to the CD layer on the SACD.

Not this time though.

But did the results change? A bit. I thought the SACD two channel generally sounded more involving than the CD two channel. But not enough to give up my control of speaker and room characteristics via digital xovers etc.

And I though the multichannel sounded much better in all tracks.

One variable raised its ugly head though. On the Telarc sampler there is a track by the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet. It's a very quiet track mostly.

So I turned the volume full up, to max, to 11, just to see what I could hear. What I heard was considerable louder hiss on both the two channel SACD track and the CD track than the multichannel track, and also a kind of low pumping noise.

This isn't audible normally of course, but made me wonder why the multichannel mix was audibly quieter.

BTW, it is not from my system, as I can play the digital blank test on some test CD I have at full volume with no hiss.

Steve

P.S.

I just had confirmation from H/K that the H/K 5.1 input does not redigitize the signal, so that is good.

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**dsmith** · 02 April 2003, 12:22 Wednesday

I agree with Jon that you don't really want to test using a receiver's bypass. The TAP9000ES however is extremely clean and probably the equal of most high end 2 channel analog preamps IMO. I would have kept mine except for its operational quirks and irritating pops it made when switching.

I understand some SACD players have a switch to filter out hypersonic signals that can damage amps and speakers, but I don't know about the Pioneer. I am no expert, but from what I have read about DVD-A and SACD I have formed the opinion that DVD-A has fewer technical implementation problems that should make it generally a superior format. I don't have either yet but a DVD-A player is likely in my near future plans. My very limited listening experience with high resolution audio (DVD-A) did not reveal any outstanding improvement over my current CD, but it was in a showroom and certainly not conducive to a decisive conclusion. I reserve the right to change that opinion, however.

Dsmith

**sfdoddsy** · 11 April 2003, 12:58 Friday

Well, I just bought a cheap dedicated Sony SACD player, the SCD-CE775. When it arrives, I'll see if that makes a difference.

Cheers

Steve

Steve's DIY Dipoles

**georose** · 30 April 2003, 22:44 Wednesday

IMHO - Cd's don't do much for multi channel sound. However Vinyl does on my system. I don't know anything about copy protected DVD's. Has anybody compared vinyl to the DVD formats?

**clm811** · 14 July 2003, 03:43 Monday

Regarding Vinyl vs DVD-A/SACD,
I have heard a few recordings on Vinyl, CD and the Hi-Res formats(including Dark Side of the Moon, Kind of Blue, Telarc's 1812 and a few Chesky's). IMHO the two channel tracks on DVD-A and SACD's sound best(of course I don't care for the clicks and pops or groove modulation distortion of the vinyl, and the brittle highs of the earlier CD's aren't too great either). Anyone else tried the Denon DVD2900? It uses the BB DSD 1790 chipset. Appreciate any info/comments about this chipset, Jon? -cm
-cm

**JonMarsh** · 20 July 2003, 11:50 Sunday

The DSD1790 is still in the "preview" stage, officially, which means the data sheets aren't finalized, and they aren't available on the web site. I'd say it's a little odd for the part to be in production on some players already, but then at Infineon we occasionally do the same things with lead customers, versus the rest of the world. I have a target data sheet for the PCM1792, but not for the DSD1790. I am something of a fan of the BB chips, especially the segmented DAC models like the 1738, but as is always the case, the supporting circuitry, power supply and supply byass are quite critical to the overall results.

Another point in favor of the 2900 is the ADI 12 bit 108 MHZ DAC's used in the video section; these were first used in the progressive option of the Ayre D1, which at it's introduction was the finest DVD player available in the world at any price. But, the surrounding componentry and execution are just as important as the core chip. That cannot be over emphasized enough.

So, I think the Denon 2900 offers an awful lot of value for $999, but I'm wondering what the tradeoffs are in order to deliver that value, in reference to their flagship models like the DVD9000. Regardless, if I were in the market for a ~$1K player, this would be on my very short list of models to check out.

Here's where the trade-offs come in, though. If I was primarily concerned about music, I'd probably get a Music Fidelity A324 DAC. (I have a low jitter transport I could use wtih it; but then, I build my own DAC's, so buying one would not be the best use of funds). And for video, a STB DVD player doesn't interest me, because I'm always using HTPC's for video playback.

But for someone looking for the best combination of video and multi-format audio in a single player for $1K, the Denon should certainly be on your audition list. And if I had enough extra funds lying around that I would "splurge" on a mult-format player, it would be one I'd consider carefully. Might make a good basis for modding, too, depending on how the PS and analog outputs are handled. But in general, while additing a low jitter clock isn't too difficult, retrofitting top flight I/V conversion and NFB outputs to an existing player is either a tremendous pain in the rear, or just not feasible.

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**clm811** · 20 July 2003, 20:44 Sunday

Thanks, Jon, for the reply.
I just read that the 1790 was designed exclusively for Denon so, perhaps, as such its specs may not be available on Burr-Brown's list(however we sure would like to see them!). I just read Manoj Matwani's review of the DVD2900 in July's DVD Etc. Magazine, where he compares its video performance to that of the DVD9000(albeit from memory, not A/B). He gives some a positive impression of the unit (although I think he was mistaken about speaker delay capability with SACD). Cheers! -chas

**David Meek** · 21 July 2003, 08:47 Monday

Originally posted by Jon

I was primarily concerned about music, I'd probably get a Music Fidelity A324 DAC.

Not playing in the SACD realm yet, I wasn't going to post, but I do have to agree with Jon on this. I picked up an A3.24 DAC and have been VERY happy with what it did for my Redbook playback.

David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

**clm811** · 22 August 2003, 20:39 Friday

A bit off-thread, but:
Well, guys,
Denon just put up three new universal DVD players on their website. The DVD2200 features the PCM/DSD 1792 converter, and lists for around $600!! The cost of comparing CD's with SACD(and DVD-A) has just come down! -chas

Charles Moore

**JonMarsh** · 27 August 2003, 15:27 Wednesday

Hmm, that's pretty cool. It's be fun to see how far you could get one of those with some basic bypass and supply mods, and maybe a bit of tweaking to the analog output. Wonder what they got in that puppy....

~Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**BeeBop** · 18 October 2003, 08:02 Saturday

I have a Denon 1600, Rotel RX1050 receiver and ACI Sapphires - a setup which I would think would allow me to distinguish differences between DVD-A and redbook CDs. I've tried both the DVD-A and redbook versions of "Buena Vista Social Club" and I cannot detect any difference. Maybe I have a tin ear. Maybe I don't have it set up right.

**Zed** · 19 October 2003, 23:43 Sunday

Maybe I have a tin ear. Maybe I don't have it set up right.

Ha ha I just realized I had my DVD-Audio set up wrong yesterday. I forgot to turn on the multi in and I was listening to it with the optical instead.

My DVD Collection

**Reticuli** · 17 December 2004, 01:38 Friday

The Sony CXD2753 chip simply threads the fully decoded audio signals into the Burr Brown 1738 DAC "DSD interface" and strait to board's simple low-pass filter section. There's no DSD to PCM conversion occuring in the 1738 anywhere, anytime. Marantz and Shanling high-end units use the same DSD decoder and DAC combo. The signal is only coverted into 8 bit psuedo-PCM chunks (also called Wide DSD by Sony when they're trying to convince studio people that it's not PCM) by the Sony chip and redecoded within the DSD chip if you do bass management and/or combine DSD channels into one another. As long as all the channels are on and set to large, then there's no conversion of even the 1-bit pulse width modulation stream to anything except the analog signals. Oddly, on a lot of material, even DD and DTS, it drops the sub (.1) channel if you tell it to fold down a 5.1 signal. It also drops the out-of-phase rear channel signal and makes the in-phase rear material out-of-phase. Not sure why Pioneer does that, but the Virtual Surround mode solves this problem for movies, though with a significant softening and texturing of the sound in the process (not a good thing). I highly recommend you use an external reciever for fold down of 5.1 material if you only have front speakers. And if there's a 2 channel down mix already on the disk and you're in this situation, use that one. You are robbing yourself severely of bit depth, S/N ratio, and dynamic range by doing fold down...so avoid it. I've heard at least one person say that the Pioneer DVD volume control is completely independent of this and that you can simply keep everything in "fixed" +6dB to get maximum S/N ratio and dynamics no matter the format. But while this is certainly true with DD, DTS, and PCM, I hear a marked difference when you put it at 0dB with SACD material (my ears say a good difference, but not sure). So I suspect that possibly conversion to Narrow PCM (Wide DSD) also occurs if you deviate from 0dB when playing an SACD, but that's only a guess. Anyone know for sure?

**David Meek** · 17 December 2004, 09:45 Friday

Hi Ben, welcome to The Guide. :welcome:

Excellent post BTW. I'll be asking several questions as I digest all you've written (think non-EE here), but do have one for now. Fold down? I'm taking that term to be the compositing of the 5.1 signal into a "standard" 2-channel one for stereo listening. Correct, or over-simplifying?

Results of my CD v SACD test

Results of my CD v SACD test

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment