RSX1055 + RB1070 (now + RC1070) - Solved

[adinfinitum]

Hello all,

Have been lurking through various HT forums for some time but new to Club Rotel. I have learnt much and have improved my system greatly with the advice I've learnt. However, I am looking to upgrade within a limited budget, and a limited physical space and wish some advice. This question relates mostly to 2ch Music as I am quite happy with 5.1 ATM.

Firstly, my system:
CD: Rotel RCD971 into
AVR: Rotel RSX1055 (v 2.5.5)
Mains: Kef Q3 floor standing
Sub: Kef PSW1000.2

I have been thinking for a while about adding a RB1070 (1080 if I can afford it) to help lift my music which, while still great, is noticable 'muddy'. Since reading this forum, I learnt how to lift it some by using analogue bypass with the 1055 using the Multi Input and noticed a vast improvement in the clarity and sweetness of music.

So my question is,

Since the Multi input bypasses the HT circuitry, does the 1055 pre-out still work if I plug it into the 1070 (1080)?

If not, do I have to revert to the CD input on the 1055 and therefore lose some of the improvements gained by analogue bypass even if I plug into the 1070? (as no matter how good the 1070, the source is still routed via the same circuitry in the 1055)

One day I would love to 'go seperate' as audio is my major concern over HT, although I still wish to keep HT obviously. However, cash and size constraint pretty much limit me to 'one more box', integrated into the current system.

Your knowledge and assistance is greatly appreciated.

[Azeke]

Just a quick thought to consider, I had the lower RB version and upgraded to the RB-1080 and noticed significant sonic improvement. I would suggest you bite the bullet and save yourself some sonic grief, upgrade to the RB-1080, you won't regret it. Just my humble opinion, of course as always YMMV.

Peace and blessings,

Azeke

[adinfinitum]

Hi Azeke,

For all my talk, truth is I'll probably just get deeper into debt and go for the 1080. As when I originally was shopping for AVR I was looking at AU$1kAU - AU$1.5k (Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo). Once I heard the Rotel though (AU$2.2k) there was just no going back. I'm sure this will be the case with the 1070/1080 debate.

Thanks for your thoughts, it's always good to have someone give me a compelling reason to spend more money :-)

[Azeke]

Hi Azeke,

For all my talk, truth is I'll probably just get deeper into debt and go for the 1080. As when I originally was shopping for AVR I was looking at AU$1kAU - AU$1.5k (Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo). Once I heard the Rotel though (AU$2.2k) there was just no going back. I'm sure this will be the case with the 1070/1080 debate.

Thanks for your thoughts, it's always good to have someone give me a compelling reason to spend more money :-)

I certainly understand your financial quagmire, I'm just trying to save you some sonic grief .

[adinfinitum]

Wasn't there a punk band in the 1970's called 'Sonic Grief'? ;-)

Thanks Azeke, I don't doubt your wisdom in this.

[adinfinitum]

Bump?

[NonSense]

adinfinitum

There is no doubt that the RB1080 is an improvemnt over the RB-1070. However, the RB-1070 is a good unit and is most definitly a large improvement over the RSX-1055's internal amps for 2CH music. (There is no issue with using an external amp and the multi-inputs) There is a larger jump in performance between the RSX-1055 to the RB-1070 then there is with the RB-1070 to RB-1080. Just need to decide if you want to make the entire jump at once.

The Kef Q10's are reasonably efficient speakers at 8Ohm/90dB. They would be a good match with the RB-1070. Since upgrading speakers usually give you the best price/performance ratio, you may want to consider saving some coin to put towards a speaker upgrade. You may not realize the full benefit of the RB-1080 with the Q10's. Give them both an audition if possible and decide for yourself.

Having said that, if you do have a plan to upgrade your main speakers, the RB-1080 may give you better mileage as it may be suited better for the next upgade.

[adinfinitum]

Thanks NonSense,

I appreciate your different perspective. I do believe (from specs anyway) that the 1080 would push my Kefs to their limit (and probably beyond) but I know that once I upgrade the Amp, I will discover the shortfalls of the speakers and then upgrade these... and then... adinfinitum. I was more attempting here to gain some insight as to whether I should bother upgrading with just a 1070/1080 now, or upgrade the speakers first, and find the limitations of the current amp, mmm... The Kefs are very well suited to the 1055 but I'm not sure how they would handle the 1080.

By the way, my mistake: my fronts are actually
KEF Q3 (not Q4) http://www.kef.com/history/2000/q/qseries3.asp

[NonSense]

adinfinitum

My mistake as well as I was quoting Q10's??? Not sure why as I did look up the Q4 spec sheet.

You generally don't have to worry about blowing the speakers, as more power is never a problem unless you can't control the dial so to speak. If fact, more power is better as it provides more headroom before the amplifier starts to clip. (Reach its maximum voltage swing) It is usually this clipping that takes out the tweeters etc.

However, there is also overkill. Meaning, that you buy an amplifier that is more than you need and you don't fully realise the benefit because other elements of the system are the limiting factor to the sound quality. (Bigger bang for the buck elsewhere) Keeping a good balanced system is important. Let you ears tell you if an upgrade is worth the expense. You may also have an upgrade plan. In which case, you may want to make a jump to more than you need right now, but a good match when the upgrade is complete.

You can be sure that either the 1070 or 1080 will give you an improvement in SQ over the internal amps of the 1055.

[adinfinitum]

Throw in a RC1070

Hello all,

Thanking you for your replies and the absolute wealth of information I have gained from this forum - it has enabled me to vastly improve my SQ before I even spent a cent. That said however, an upgrade was inevitable after 4 years without one. I made an appointment with my dealer.

The end result is, Yesterday I returned home with a RB1070 and RC1070 after being offered a deal on ex-demo I simply couldn't refuse. The sound is superb and has added a whole new dimension to music- everything now sounds great, not just those HDCD and best quality recordings. I spent 6 hours last night chewing through my collection.

I would like to hear though from other users about the best way to integrate the 3 units (RSX-1055, RC-1070 and RB1070). I have first attempted to simply Y cable with the pre-out from both the RC-1070 and the 1055 both into the RB1070. However, when I turn on the 1055 (even only on stand-by) it sucks all the life out of the music from the 2 1070's.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[JDH]

Hello all,

Thanking you for your replies and the absolute wealth of information I have gained from this forum - it has enabled me to vastly improve my SQ before I even spent a cent. That said however, an upgrade was inevitable after 4 years without one. I made an appointment with my dealer.

The end result is, Yesterday I returned home with a RB1070 and RC1070 after being offered a deal on ex-demo I simply couldn't refuse. The sound is superb and has added a whole new dimension to music- everything now sounds great, not just those HDCD and best quality recordings. I spent 6 hours last night chewing through my collection.

I would like to hear though from other users about the best way to integrate the 3 units (RSX-1055, RC-1070 and RB1070). I have first attempted to simply Y cable with the pre-out from both the RC-1070 and the 1055 both into the RB1070. However, when I turn on the 1055 (even only on stand-by) it sucks all the life out of the music from the 2 1070's.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

You probably should of purchased the RB-1080 over the RB-1070 as the RB-1080 has two inputs, ie. XLR type connection and also RCA. You can select either using a switch on the back of the RB-1080. Other than that why not buy or make up your own RCA switching box so that you can toggle between the RSX-1055 and the RC-1070 ?

[adinfinitum]

I did originally consider the 1080 as advised by many forum members but when I was offered a great deal with the 1070, and then demoed with the 1070 pre-amp included, the overall benefit of the 2 1070's was greater than the 1080 alone for 2 ch music and at less than the cost of a 1080.

I also have considered a switcher unit, but was hoping someone else might offer a simpler solution that I've missed. There is a huge variety of Rotel combos out there - hopefully someone has similar issue to mine (ie: 2 x pre-amps).

[JDH]

Its a shame the RC-1070 doesn't have a bypass/pass through mode.

[gianni]

I would run the pre-outs from the 1055 into the rc-1070. Then calibrate your system for HT and mark that position on the rc1070. When you watch movies just select the input that you have the 1055 connected to, and set the rc1070 volume to the calibrated mark.

When listening to stereo, don't even bother turning on the 1055.

[adinfinitum]

Thanks Gianni,

I was thinking this is probably my best short term-solution. The only problem is both the RC1070 and the 1055 have the same remote codes for volume control. So when in HT - if i wish to turn the overall volume up or down I get twice the effect on the fronts as with the other 3 speakers.

Does anyone know why the volume from music on the 2 1070's should drop so dramatically when the 1055 is on standby? I would have thought the pre-outs on the 1055 would not allow any input signal so should not affect anything so long as I was not trying to output 2 signals simultaneously (ie: have both the 1055 and the RC1070 attempting to output into the power amps at the same time).

[adinfinitum]

Hi all,

Just though I'd post back my results for any who may be interested. The RCA switch box idea was a fizzer, too much signal loss.

I took a simpler method and put a small piece of black PVC tape over the IR sensor of the pre-amp (lucky I bought a black 1070, can hardly see it) and then pre-out from the reciever into the RC1070. Left the pre-amp at usual CD listening volume (10 o'clock) and set the gain on the receiver to boost the front speakers. Needed a lot of gain, about +6 on the front compared to -3 on the rest. I have lost remote volume control for music but a small price to pay for the major improvement I hear with my CD's. I must say, those Rotels definately punch above their weight. Except now I'm starting to realise the limitations of the little Q3's and am thinking about new front speakers.

Never ends,

Thanks to for the world of knowledge you've freely given.

[foeth]

Q3? Didn't you say Q4? I've listened a few seconds to a Q4 and I'm not exactly sure what made KEF add that speaker to an already not too impressive series (though I have been a happy Q5 owner for years). The newer IQ's are slightly better (bass wise) but I find them a bit dull. I have the feeling many people buy the KEF Q-series or B&W 6-series on brand name only. There are many smaller brands that do so much better for the same price (Dynaudio/Phonar or any other small local manufacturer). Of course, both the high-end KEF and B&W are a different story.

[adinfinitum]

Hi Foeth,

I did originally post Q4 but my mistake, corrected it several posts down.

I guess it goes to show just how personal listening preferrences can be. I really like my Q3's for the price I paid, nothing came close. I found the cheaper B&W's not to my liking at all. Of course, I grew up with my audiophile father playing his LP's through a Lynn TT and Naim amps. I belive, and many seem to aggree, that Naim/Lynn are 'voiced' a particular way. Adding their own tonal philosophy to the reproduction. I find this with the KEF's (obviously not comparing KEF with Naim) but I like the smooth tones of the Kefs. I originally auditioned B&W Nautilus (602 IIRC) a few years ago. And, whilst impressed with the clarity and punch, found listening fatigue set in. I like the upgrade path offered with KEF at a better price so I took this road.

VERY VERY sorry to B&W fans - I don't mean to talk these speakers down, I'm simply viocing my own opinion. I do recognise the quality of the high end B&W but I can't afford these for a long time to come.

I originally bought the Q3 too because they suite my 1055 extremely well. However they are somewhat limited with the 2 1070's I've added.

Foeth, do you bi-wire your Q5's? I found with my Q3, bi-wiring significantly cleared up the sound. Even removing the grill made a difference. Just curious as I haven't been able to talk with many other Kef owners on these forums. I don't doubt there might be better speakers for the money, but I start to suffer 'option anxiety'. Too much choice and then trying to compare them in shops with sooooo many different source systems.... In the end I just stopped looking and went back to what I liked and could afford.

[foeth]

I did bi-wire them, but as I more or less didn't know what I was doing then, I didn't compare it to single wire. I'm not sure if you hear much difference if you use sufficiently thick cable. My Q5's were also placed as bad as you could, but as a student I could not afford too much space

As far as option anxiety is concerned; my dealer has several (actually 21) rooms with 40 speakers each. That's a lot of options, but switching from one speaker to the next in the same price class very quickly thins down the number of options. The cheaper series of both KEF and B&W didn't register at all in such a line up, though visually the Q-series is pretty neat (I think so, girlfriend hates them).

[adinfinitum]

From your posts, I get the imression you're less than impressed with the KEF SQ. Mind if I ask then, what made you choose these if you heard better for similar price?

21 rooms * 40 speakers, mmm... 40... carry the 7... divide by...

over 800 speakers!!!!

I don't think I've ever seen such an on-floor range. I think I'd have to pitch a tent in the show room and have food supplies air lifted in. If you had the choice again then, what speakers do you prefer and why?

As for the cable, I use a 6mm all copper fairly good speaker cable. I'm not sure about the Q5 but the Q3 uses external crossover for high and low that are simply a piece of metal. I think there's some loss regardless of cable. To my ear, the bi-wire was the biggest single difference made before I bought the 2 latest Rotel additions.

[foeth]

I choose the Q5's years and years ago without doing much listening at all, mainly by review (well, this is how the hobby started). Of course, I was pretty happy with them then. When I wanted to buy 2 more for 5.1 sound (well, 4.0) I did some listening (vs Q1). Came home with something different entirely!

The Q5's and mostly all speakers have a small connector between LF and HF connections. Well, the new IQ series have "audiophile" connectors, meaning 6 times as expensive and doing the same thing? I've never tried a bi wire listening test, but I read the differences are hardly audible?! (http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring)

Ok, it's more like 20 speakers and some rooms have less. But, many speakers!

[adinfinitum]

Have you road tested any of the reference series?

[foeth]

During one of my listening tests, they sneaked in a Kef ref 203 which was naturally a bit better than my own (I have a brand X speaker but half the price). The shop itself wasn't even too happy with the more expensive B&W's... or at least not with the price you have to pay for one...

But, on one occasion I did glimpse a KEF 205, a B&W 804 and my speaker in a setup for a "most discerning customer". Well, made me smile, even though I liked the Kef's better (the kind of speaker that sounds very controlled). Haven't heard the B&W 8-series though. As it is now, these reference speakers are slightly above budget (as I need 5). Perhaps when I grow up :P

[adinfinitum]

5 reference, luxury.

I'd be happy with a pair of reference, or even Q11 fronts and relegate the Q3 to the rear.