Rotel or Classe?

[RebelMan]

Fellow Rotelians, I find myself in a quandary. I am running a poll, Upgrade Speakers or Separates?, at Club B&W. The feedback so far has been great, but the decision I make will be a lasting one. In an effort to ensure that my choice is successful, i.e., one without regret, I believe additional input from this club would be beneficial.

For some time now I have been planning an upgrade to separates. I have narrowed my choices down to a short list of options for consideration. However, it occurred to me that perhaps I should upgrade my speakers instead. The reason I came to this conclusion is that I believe my current equipment is competent enough to get me by until I can make a move into something more capable. Second, the speaker upgrade I have in mind might very well be last one I make. Although, I won't go on record as to say never.

However, I also believe that the equipment I have now, while sufficient, lacks some finesse, is a little lean, and overall musicality that is less well rounded than other more distinguished pedigree is at driving my current choice of speakers. Please don't misunderstand, Rotel makes great products and I have found much pleasure in the equipment which I own. But the speakers I own have shown me just how capable they really are. Sadly to say it wasn't Rotel, but rather its kissing cousin Classe' that demonstrated this revelation. (Other brands, in addition to Rotel, are on the table too but I have limited my choices, and this discussion, to just this one for now).

I currently own a pair of B&W 803S's as mains, an HTM3S center, SCMS's as surrounds and an ASW-825 subwoofer. Everything is powered by a Rotel RCD-1072, RDV-1050, RSX-1056 and an RB-1080 which drives the 803S's. For about the same money I can either replace my B&W 803S's with 800D's OR replace all of my Rotel equipment with a Classe' CDP-300 (source), SSP-300 (pre/pro) and CA-5200 (amp).

The trouble I have with accepting the above move into Classe' separates (now) and then the 800D speakers (later) is that I "may" find the need to follow up with yet another upgrade to the electronics. On the other hand a move into these separates now would optimize the performance of my current set of speakers. To conduct a Classe' upgrade now that would effectively eliminate any additional need to upgrade (and render this thread moot) is not an viable (affordable) option at this time. Furthermore, it is likely that the option I choose now will remain for some time. In other words, I maybe living with the arrangement I make for a while until I can afford to make some changes to the "other side", thus the quandary.

This dilemma is really not a matter of what sounds better to me but what makes the best sense of doing. I have heard the B&W 802D's with Rotel's RSP-1098 and RMB-1095 and it sounded great. I have also heard my 803S's with Classe's CAP-2100 and CA-2200 and it sounded great too. They didn't sound the same but neither sounded better than the other either, they were just different. I could, and did, enjoy both configurations. In the first case the 802D's were not performing at their best and in the second case the 803S's were which makes the situation a relatively neutral one.

Unless Rotel releases a more compleling product or I choose another brand I will ultimately end up with a B&W 800D's and Classe' "something" combination. What would you do and how do you vote? Thanks.

[DelRay]

Wow. I don't know what to say that hasn't already been said after reading that thread. A quandry most of us wish we had. That being said, If I owned a pair of 800d's, I would keep them forever. Not to mention,they are quite possibably the most beautiful speakers I've ever seen. (Hey, what can I say. I like the pod.) I don't know what the sound difference is between the Rotel and Classe'. Never heard the 2 side-by-side. Must be a pretty big jump though. Good luck! Don't you wish you could just flip a coin.

[Kens1]

I own the 1056 & 1080 as well and I love it. That being said I listen to classe equipment at my dealer everytime I go there (which is quite often) and it is always mated with B&W speakers. You say it sounds different than the Rotel kit you have compared, but I will say to me classe is better. I love the sound of classe with B&W (although that is all I have heard classe mated with). Eventually classe will be my next upgrade.
If you can afford it I say go the classe route and see what happens to your already very capable speakers.

[RebelMan]

You say it sounds different than the Rotel kit you have compared, but I will say to me classe is better.

Hey Ken, Classe' clearly sounds better with the 800 series to me too. If I was fortunate enough to get the best speakers and the best equipment all at once then this issue would be for not. The way I look at it, the 800D's would bring out the best that Rotel can offer and Classe' would bring out the best the 803S's could deliver. The situation is mismatched but only temporarily, "maybe" up to five years before anything else would change.

I am concerned that if I choose the 800D's now I may tire of my Rotel equipment driving them sooner than anticipated. However, if I choose the Classe' setup now, then when I am ready to take the 800D plunge I "may" find myself needing to up grade the hardware again which might push my estimated time frame for a balanced system out even further. On the other hand, a lot may change between now and then. Rotel may step up to the plate with more competitive offerings both acoustically and financially.

It would seem that the first option is the smarter one in the long run and that the second option is the better one in the short run. "Play me now or play me later." :lol:

For now I am still undecided. :roll:

[RebelMan]

Don't you wish you could just flip a coin.

As crazy as it might seem it just may come down to this, unless a clear consensus dictates otherwise.

[RobP]

You know Rebelman, this would all be easier on us if we would just let our wives decide. :roflmao:

[kurtholz]

do the classe upgrade, or krell, your speakers are great, my dealer has the classe hooked up to some 801s now, it was previously hooked up with Krell, i can't decide which i like the best, but going from Rotel to Krell with my 803N has taken the speaker upgraditis out of me,

though my configuration is a little different, i use the HDM1 center and 805s and a asw800 sub, which is going next ,the Rel subs or the Velodyne just to me sound so much better

going to the arcam player from the Rotel made such an improvement, i am sure the classe player is even better,

you have enough speaker to rock the world, do the separates, then trick the wife into letting you do 800s later

:-)

we should do a poll, how many of our wives know what we spend on this stuff, kinda like some other hobbies i have, if she knew what some of that junk was worth

i can't imagine the wrath

hahahhaa

good luck whichever way you go

Kurt

[kurtholz]

as a side note, i am actively looking for a set of monoblocks , i am really only looking at used,i can save huge money and i feel comfortable there are some good ones out there, maybe you should think about that, go with a new pre-pro, then find some used amps,

Kurt

[DrJRapp]

I think, very much as kurtholz has already expressed that you may find a whole different speaker lurking under your 803s once you feed them some top quality power. As little as six weeks ago I would have said that the Rotel was adequite, however, after experiencing some true "hi-end" amps my perspective has changed.

I vote electronics first, and if you really want to experience a boost, try a tube CDP.

[ShadowZA]

Rebelman, I'm going through virtually the same quandry. This is the year of the major upgrade and I'm hoping that it will pan out as follows: (btw ... my wife approves ... yeehaa!)

Front speakers: B&W 803D
Centre speaker: B&W HTM2D
Sub: B&W ASW825
Rear surround speakers: Use existing B&W N804's

Pre-amp: To be upgraded later, when dolby lossless tech is here. So, in the meantime, I'm sticking with my Rotel RSP-976.

Ok, now here's where the quandry kicks in. The following power amp solutions have been giving me some sleepless nights:

Nu Force: 5 x Reference 9 monoblocks. I'm nervous as the technology is quite new and I don't what to buy now and then see some better Reference 10's or whatever available a year from now. Not on my shortlist anymore.

or

Rotel RB-1092, 500w x 2 (to power the 803D’s), RB-1092, 500w x 2 (to power the 804's), RB-1091, 500w x 1 (to power the HTM2D). These amps have not been released yet. I'd need to read a couple of reviews on them ... and then some ... if I were to get them. Also, at 500w per channel, these are beasts. May be too powerful.

or

Classé CA-5200 200w x 5. At this point in time it's my favourite. I'm waiting until April/May 2006. If I still feel as stongly as I do now about this amp then ... I think that this will be my move.

or

Jeff Rowland: 5 x Model 201 (250w x 1 monoblocks)
Rumor has it that the 201 has two flaws: 1) it wasn’t designed to handle power surges and 2) the 201’s SMPS was a bit basic for hi-fi use. I'm not sure whether this is true ... not on my favourite list for now anyway.

or

Krell: Theater Amplifier Standard 200w x 5. I don't know anything about this amp.

or

Bryston 4B SST + 6B SST to drive 5 channels at 300w. This is on my shortlist and is under consideration.

Well, what can I say. The Classé CA-5200 is my favourite at this point. It's tried and tested and it's a classic. Don't know how things will pan out. Apologies to Rebelman if I've increased the complexities of your dilemma

[lvhung]

Rotel electrnoics may be too cheap for some multi-milionaire

[RobP]

I think, very much as kurtholz has already expressed that you may find a whole different speaker lurking under your 803s once you feed them some top quality power. As little as six weeks ago I would have said that the Rotel was adequite, however, after experiencing some true "hi-end" amps my perspective has changed.

I vote electronics first, and if you really want to experience a boost, try a tube CDP.

Jerry, I know I did, I just put a Classe CA-101 on my N803's, and they really came to life! I can only imagine what they will do when I find a good CA-201.

[kurtholz]

you might think about the Krell Kav3250 3 channel, it;s what i use, there is absolutely no lack of power, plus you can upgrade later to monoblocks and use the kav for center and surrounds

that's my gameplan at least

good luck

Kurt

[PewterTA]

I don't know if you guys saw the thread but the Abbey Road Studios switched all their amps in their major recording studios over to the Classe CA-M400. Now I'm sure some people will say differently, but I think the Abbey Road Studios is one of the best in the world for reproduction and what they do there is truly amazing. In short, I think they are a group of people that really knows what they are doing. So to say they coupled Classe with B&W...that just means you're going to get a GREAT sound...or the RIGHT sound from your B&Ws when paired with Classe.

Just throwing that out there.

http://www.classeaudio.com/html/abbeyroad-oct05.htm

[DrJRapp]

I would have expected nothing else considering who owns Abby Road.

[RebelMan]

I would have expected nothing else considering who owns Abby Road.

Hmm, so who are you "implying" does? Careful, may not be who you think.

[DrJRapp]

Hmm, so who are you "implying" does? Careful, may not be who you think.

Do your own research, you'll find I'm not "implying" anything. Just making a statement of fact.

[DrJRapp]

Nu Force: 5 x Reference 9 monoblocks. I'm nervous as the technology is quite new and I don't what to buy now and then see some better Reference 10's or whatever available a year from now. Not on my shortlist anymore.

Actually the technology isn't new at all, it's the application that is new. You should really listen to these amps. The sound is that compelling. From what I understand, NuForce will continue to upgrade their amps for existing customers for very nominal fees. Classe doesn't even offer this feature.

I just purchased 2 for my study/library system. Because of thier speed they do wonderful things for the smearing that is apparent on a lot of B&W tweeters and midranges.

[ShadowZA]

Jerry, I was hoping that I wouldn't be tempted into auditioning the NF 9's. Maybe the reason for this is that I tend to move toward that which is very tried and tested. Not very open-minded of me, I know. I read somewhere else that these amps demonstrate all 4 of the following attributes:

1. Very high damping factor. They can drive virtually any speaker at a super fast response.

2. High bandwidth. Maybe this contributes to its wide sound stage.

3. Low distortion. Hard to measure, but overall THD + noise is very low.

4. Almost no phase shift.

I've got plenty of time to give these babies some ear-time before buy-time. In the meantime, I'll try to uncover more info/reviews.

[RebelMan]

Do your own research, you'll find I'm not "implying" anything. Just making a statement of fact.

I am reminded of the Leonardo DiCaprio movie "Catch Me If You Can." :lol: I already know the answer and I pressume your implied fact is incorrect. Hint the answer is not B&W.

[RebelMan]

Rebelman, I'm going through virtually the same quandry. This is the year of the major upgrade and I'm hoping that it will pan out as follows: (btw ... my wife approves ... yeehaa!) … Apologies to Rebelman if I've increased the complexities of your dilemma

Glad to hear that the CFO in your family approves! LOL

No apologies necessary Shadow. My first dilemma, speakers or separates, has been settled. My second dilemma, which separates, is still unanswered. I have two major contenders on my list, Classe’ and Bryston. Every other brand/component under consideration will be compared to these two, IMO, gold standards. At this point it would be a coin toss to decide between which of the two it would be. In the mean time I continue my search. If nothing else can best either of these (I have the same brands in mind as you do except JR and Krell), hopefully, through this process of elimination, I will have picked a winner. This is the fun part of this hobby. Which toy to buy?

[Joey_V]

Although you have decided... I would like to put my .02 in.

Going with the BW800D would basically take you to the top of what BW can offer (without taking into account the Snails). I'm sure your Rotel can power it, albeit not as well or as precise as the Classe. With the Classe, you will push your 803S further than you could push them with the Rotel... essentially you'll be getting a new speaker so to speak. However, I would choose the 800D as the upgrade of choice since I would find it to sound better (if not as precise or controlled) than a Classe powered 803S. Now... if you had the 803D, that would be an entirely different story.

Joey

[Alloroc]

Hi,

FYI - HiFi+ magazine in the UK have published a reviewed of the Reference 9 Monoblocks in the current issue.

First time that I'd heard of them and made for interesting reading.

Vincent

[RebelMan]

You know Rebelman, this would all be easier on us if we would just let our wives decide. :roflmao:

What were you drinking, ...oops I meant thinking when you made this comment? You forget, your wife accepts this hobby and mine doesn't. I'm willing to let her decide if you are willing to let me reside... at your place! LOL :rofl:

[RebelMan]

Although you have decided... I would like to put my .02 in.

Joey, I may have decided but it was a very close decision. Since I am 50/50 AV I also had to consider the possible timbre' mismatch between the diamond and aluminum tweets. I was only thinking about the mains in this case. Had I chosen the 800D's I would not only be driving them with limited capablility I would have created a mismatch with the rest of my system. I was willing to take the hit if it were only a temporary situation. If I could better predict that my future upgrade plans were going to occur sooner than five years I probably would have. Or had I been 80% audio or better then my decision might have gone the other way too.

In any event, I will ultimately arrive at my planned destination. The trip I take getting there was the tough call to make.

[ShadowZA]

OK, Jerry ... I was tempted ... I succumbed ... and now ... I'm hooked

I've arrived back in the office after listening to a pair of NuForce Ref 9's driving a pair of Bohlender Graebener Radia 520i ribbon freestanding speakers http://www.bgcorp.com/ . I was blown away. No, that's an understatement. I have been completely blown away. I listened to 3 of my current favourite cd's: Diana Krall - Christmas Songs; Bob James - Morning, Noon & Night and Jim Tomlinson - The Lyric (featuring Stacey Kent on vocals). Turned up the volume to levels such that clipping should have been evident. But, no. There was absolutely no sign of stress or clipping. Musically, the detail ... imho ... was as complete as it could possibly be. More than enough bandwidth to allow ALL the music to be heard. There was absolutely no loss of detail at all. Nothing. Simply pure music, only music ... nothing but music. At high volume, when a track finished playing, There was pure silence. No hiss.

Am I hooked? You betcha

Any other South Africans out there ... look out for a detailed review in the March 2006 edition of Audio Video South Africa.

[Kobus]

Any other South Africans out there ... look out for a detailed review in the March 2006 edition of Audio Video South Africa.

I just wish their reviews were more critical.

[ShadowZA]

Kobus, that's what spooks me.

[ShadowZA]

Here's the official NuForce discussion thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=17877

[calgaryguy]

Abbey Roads Studio Speakers

I read in this post earlier that Abbey Road Studio uses B&W Speakers. I believe they used to use B&W Speakers and now have moved to PMC (professional monitor company) speakers. fyi.

I just switched over to a pair of PMC OB1's recently (previously had the B&W CM2's, a late 80's small footprint floorstanding speaker) to pair with my Rotel 1075/1098 combo...and it sounds great!

Calgaryguy

[RebelMan]

I read in this post earlier that Abbey Road Studio uses B&W Speakers. I believe they used to use B&W Speakers and now have moved to PMC (professional monitor company) speakers. fyi.

I just switched over to a pair of PMC OB1's recently (previously had the B&W CM2's, a late 80's small footprint floorstanding speaker) to pair with my Rotel 1075/1098 combo...and it sounds great!

Abbey continues to use B&W. They may also use PMC which has a long and distinguished record of producing some fine studio grade monitors and I agree their consumer grade models do sound great.