Speaker upgrade: Rotel RX-1052 and RCD-1072

[thyname]

I have a Rotel RX-1052 stereo receiver and RCD-1072 cd player with SilverCats interconnects, all of these connected to my JBL E60 three-way floor standing speakers through Monster Speaker cables. It sounds good to me, but everybody says that my JBL speakers are my weakest point in my dedicated 2-channel system.

I am thinking on upgrading my speakers to B&Ws, and am considering DM603 - S3, DM604 S3, CM 4, CM 6, and 704 models, all in my price range (up to $2000 per pair). I mostly listen to hard rock/heavy metal music. I care a lot for good crisp highs and clear mids, with male vocals.

Any suggestions please!!

I am willing to consider other brands as well.

[PewterTA]

I would definitely consider looking at either the Dm604s (they will give you the bass), the 704s are one step up, but I'm not sure if the 1052 will power them as well. Another one to look at would be the 805s, but I'd like to get a good power amp with those as well...

Only downside to the 805s is they don't have the drivers for the lower bass region...which with the music you listen to, might detract from the enjoyment. I'd go and listen to the 604s and 704s and see which you prefer, my guess for the money though the 604s would do wonders for you...as the difference between the 604s and 704s is there, but it's not as big of a difference as the 704s to the 804s.

[gd]

Audition.

Audition a lot.

For starters: Totem, NHT, Vandersteen, Monitor Audio, Dali.

You might also consider try-&-buy online vendors such as GR Research or Onix/Rocket.

[thyname]

I would definitely consider looking at either the Dm604s (they will give you the bass), the 704s are one step up, but I'm not sure if the 1052 will power them as well. Another one to look at would be the 805s, but I'd like to get a good power amp with those as well...

Only downside to the 805s is they don't have the drivers for the lower bass region...which with the music you listen to, might detract from the enjoyment. I'd go and listen to the 604s and 704s and see which you prefer, my guess for the money though the 604s would do wonders for you...as the difference between the 604s and 704s is there, but it's not as big of a difference as the 704s to the 804s.

Yes, I agree for 805s, I'll need some floorstandings with bass driver with no need for subwoofer. Thank you for your message PewterTA!!

The specs for 704s say 50-150 watts power handling and I think this fits with my rx-1052 receiver, which is 2x100 watts, unless there are things that I don't understand, since I am new to audiophile world.

Also, I have read reviews that say 604s have more than necessary bass and recommend 603s instead. This would work better for me (cheaper) but am I going to lose in sound quality apart from the loss in bass?

Thanks again!!

[audiofan]

Like other posters said, audition and audition ... If money is not a subject, there are many execelllent speakers out there. I like Totem Forrest but this one costs over 3k! For budget speakers, take a look at Aperion Power Tower. I have listened to this and the low end is awesome, mid/high is pretty good (www.aperionaudio.com)

Good luck.

[ironchef]

Thyname, I have the RCD-1072, RA-1062 (integrated 60wpc), with B&W 603s3s. They deliver plenty of low end, although serious bass-hungry freaks may find them slightly wanting. I listen to acoustic, electronic, occasionally metal, and the speakers are nearly perfect for me. If they are to be faulted, they can be a little on the edgy (or shouty) side at higher volumes, but that could be the fault of the 1062. Their major strength is cleanness of detail and air.
I think they really shine with acoustic recordings where room dynamics are evident, but that could be very subjective, and depend on what you like. For example Tool's Lateralus HDCD sounds amazing as well, with the guitar chops separated by complete silence when necessary, yet allowed to fully snarl w/o hurting the ears. Bottom line is that I'm very happy with my setup, and you should be in even better shape with the higher power rating.

[Tha Freak]

JM Labs with Rotel...would that be a good match??

[thyname]

I have JBLs and not JM Labs Tha Freak...

Thanks for review of DM603 S3s Ironchief..

Any other suggestions please!! Somebody who listen to plenty of Heavy Metal!!

[gimpgutter]

Thy name...my dad just bought the RX-1052 and the RCC1055 cd player. We had them hooked up to his old Cerwin Vega HED's (25 years old) and they sounded pretty good. We were a lil dissapointed though. The bass was hardly there, but the treble was harsh and too apparent. He then ordered the Axiom ( www.axiomaudio.com ) M60ti and M22ti's to replaced the CV's. Needless to say, these speakers rock. The place he got the Rotel components featured primarily B & W and Vienna Acoustics. He said the Vienna's sound horrible for their 5000$ price. And he listened to 3 of the B&W series. First...the 600 series. He said he would never buy these and never let anyone buy these. The guy who sold them said they were horribly designed and B&W was pulling them from the market. Next...the CM4's. He was offered 700 for the floor models but declined. Said they sounded pretty good, nice rich sound. Then he went up to the 703's. He was impressed, but couldnt quite justify the near 3000$ price tag. So he passed on a speaker purchase. Even before going he was set on the Axiom's but so reluctant because he couldnt hear them in person. He looked at the return policy and said lets go for it. So he ordered them last sunday, received them on wed from Canada.

First impression:
The m22ti bookshelf is TINY!!! It is about 20 inches high, 8 wide and about 10 deep. But it has full sound. Same tweeters and midrange as the other axiom floorstanding ones. Also, it weighs about 19 pounds if i recall. A hefty cabinet with hefty magnets. Sound is incredible out of these. Many go for a pair of these with a sub and dont need anything more. In out 20 x 20 foot living room, they sounded great.

Now for the m60's. These weigh 47 pounds each and are 37 inches tall. Fairly sizeable, but dwarfed by the Vegas. The finish on it is beautiful, sound is absolutely stunning. Perfect sound reproduction all the way up the scale from 37Hz to 20kHz. Its a fairly flat response curve and sounds very balanced. Squealing guitars, powerful snare hits, blaring horns...all crips and completely undistorted. They are very revealing and any scratchiness of the guitarist becomes apparent. Bass is tight and undistorted. 37Hz might not be low enough for some but you could always add a subwoofer (see comment in next paragraph). The midrange is crystal clear with voices sounding so natural. Bono's words never felt so powerful as they did on Joshua Tree with these speakers. Straight out blew the vega's away, the 600's dont even compare, the CM4's dont quite match, and the 703's sounded very very similar. So spend 3 grand on the 703's, or 900 on these.

Now...about the low end bass. I purchased an Infinity CSW10 for myself back in november for the HT in my room. We wanted to hook it up to the Rotel 1052 , but it lacks a subwoofer output on it. We had to use the preamp output on the receiver and connect it to the subs pre-ins(because the sub lacks high level inputs...good going infinity). However, this didnt work. Bass was nearly non existent. Turns out there is an impedence mismatch on the preouts (around 47kOhm) and the subs input (~15kOhm) which should reuslt in way TOO MUCH bass...not too little. We tested the sub on my denon and an NAD receiver's preamps...both did the same thing. However, hooking it up to the subout works fine on the Denon. Now...i decided to test an old KLH sub i had with the Rotel preouts...friggin thing worked fine. So it seems dif subs behave differently with the preouts on the rotel's Zone 2-4. So you really need to test a sub on your rotel if you want extra bass (which you prob dont need with the Axioms.)

Another option is to get the M80ti's which go down to 27 Hz if i recall. However, they are 4ohm impedance..not 8 like the rest of the lineup. The 1052 cant handle a mismatched pair of fronts and rears if you plan on gettin the M22's also.

Overall...the axioms were surprisingly great. Sound was truly authentic, uncolored, and crystal clear. Best speakers you could probably buy new for under a grand. Dont hesitate to buy these with Rotel products. Btw, its free shipping from their site, so its 900$ flat with a 30 day free return policy if ur that worried. I listen to alot of hard rock also, and Metallica's Justice for All sounded great....with classic rock the crappy recordings made their presence, and with Talking Heads, the Police, The Cars...everything had a hole new side to it. I cant recommend these anymore and i guarentee you will not be dissapointed. Give them a try!!

[thyname]

WOW... great review for the axioms, especially relevant since we share the RX- 1052. I'll check those out..

thank you, gimpgutter.

[fivepack]

Thyname, are you unhappy with your JBL's?? Because i wouldn't do the upgrade that'll cost me a lot of money just because some one else tells me my speakers are the weakest link in my setup.
Well ok, if they would pay for it too, than :T

[audiofan]

I also own M60 . It works pretty well with Rotel gears. Bass is not excellent ,but good enough for me. As i mentioned above, you may want to check out aperion PT, which has built-in subwoofer with great bass. But its mid-range is not as good as Axiom M60. Both Axiom and Aperion offer 30 days in home trial. Give them a try...

[Tha Freak]

I have JBLs and not JM Labs Tha Freak...

I was asking (suggesting?) if JM Labs where a good match for Rotel gear?

Any impressions?

[benny]

I do listen to alot of metal and I auditioned b&w against Paradigm Studio 60 Reference. The Paradigm's just had a little more "character"- not super flat like a Dynaudio or B&W. Imagine the look on my dealer's face when I cranked "Far Beyond Driven" up on their demo set-up! The tweets in the Paradigm bring it to life for me.

[cuda65]

Audition the Paradigm 60's or 100's. I don't think you will be dissapointed. :T

[vinny c.]

Hey Thyname,

I have the RX1052 with the RCC1055 CD player. I have a pair of Paradigm Monitor 11v4 and I totally love the way they sound together. I listened to the B&W 604's which were also very good but in the end I went with the Paradigms. I think you'll like the total sound of the system. There is mucho bass, the mids are fairly neutral, and the highs don't bite you (B&W's were a little on the bright side) and they image great for an $1100 speaker. Enjoy your auditioning. Good luck with your choice.

-Vinny

[aud19]

Try B&W, Energy, Paradigm and Totem to start. They're some of my "affordable" fav's

[Tha Freak]

no comments on JM Labs ??

[miner]

[QUOTE=gimpgutter]Thy name...my dad just bought the RX-1052 and the RCC1055 cd player.

How do you like your Dad's RCC1055 changer? I am contemplating a purchase to replace my Denon DCM 370.

[phuz]

First, if you are happy with the JBLs then stick with em. The Northridge line is a rockin line of speakers.

I'm not sure that a lot of the suggestions here would be good for heavy metal.

The B&W 6 series would be good. If you went up to the 7, you might not be happy with their performance with heavy metal music. It sounds like you want speakers that you can brock out with, not refined speakers that lack the "oomf" or feeling that metalheads usually want.

I'd say B&W 6 series, Polks RTi line, PSB Image, or Paradigm. As most said, spend a TON of time listening. Back a CD case and bring your favs out with you.

[willbrosk]

Not sure if alot of people would agree with me but I would audition a set of klipsch RF-7s. These speakers sound great with heavy metal, and generally more harsh/edgier music. These have a very high sensitivity of 102db, and will work fine with 100w per chan, and they are within your budget.
I have been auditioning tons speakers over last few months trying to figure out what to upgrade to. What I have found is that it is very very difficult to find a set of speakers to sound good with both mellow music, rocking music and home theater. I found the klipsch did well HT and excellent for hard rock and rap. However, the dealer warned me that a poor room can make the klipsch sound very harsh(and I have a bad room right now) and it did not soundwonderful with some mellow suff.
Another option might be a set of sonus faber grand pianos. I actually auditioned these today and was very impressed on how they did with hard rock, theater and classical. I have plans to check out some gallo ref 3s in 2 weeks while im on a trip and if I dont fall in love with them I will be buying the sonus faber.

[thyname]

Thank you all guys for the advise!!! I appreciate it. I decided to stay with my JBLs for the moment (I swear they sound flawless with my RCD-1072 and Rx-1052). I can't imagine how better my system could be. I have great interconnects and just ordered some Bi-wire speaker cables. That's all for now. However, I know that sooner I later I will audition some of the speakers you guys suggested (especially the Paradigms), and I don't know, if they really make me happy....

[gimpgutter]

Miner: Its pretty nice. but things we dont like about it: no power switch on the remote(wtf were they thinking?), the slide thing on the remote is a bit of a pain in the ass...and i think that's about it. Now the good: sounds good, but havent tried any hdcd's yet. None of my fav bands have any of them. It is either like Jazz...or Punk. god knows why punk needs to be recorded at a higher bitrate. The screen is simple and functional. Can see if no prob from 20 feet away.

Overall, we like it alot. Howeveer, we paid $629 for it, and not quite sure it sounds that much better than a $200 one.

And good luck thyname...if it sounds great to you, then its all that matters.

[astravitz]

I realize that you are going to hold off for now, but as the owner of a Rotel RX-1052 & RCD-1070. I'm extremely happy having them hooked up to a pair of Triangle COMETE 202's. The new ones are supposed to be even better. You can probably drive any of the speakers in the Triangle Espirit Range.

http://www.triangle-fr.com/uk/gamme-esprit.php

I listened to some of the B&W speakers, but I like my Triangles better. I've always wanted to have a pure two channel systems. I considered separates but I couldn’t hear much difference, I like the RX-1052, it’s a fantastic stereo receiver. It has all the features I would ever want, with a pure simple design. I don't see needing more then 100watts any time soon. The separation and speed of the receiver is unbelievable. You will need to choose your speakers wisely.

I like Triangle speakers because they are the most natural sounding speakers, but at the same time are fast enough to keep up with anything you can throw at them. I’ve had a number of friends come over that when we are listening to music turn around or look for speakers in other parts of my room. I say no that’s perfect separation and sound reproduction, you’re only hearing the original recording. I will say I’m jealous that you have RCD-1072 (sounded great in the store), although it’s probably a marginal improvement over the RCD-1070.

Bottom line, chose what makes you smile.

Click below link for my system:

http://nyclife.com/rotel/

[thyname]

I saw your pics astravitz, awesome!! Very glad I found somebody liking RX-1052 receiver and not going for amp/preamp seps, as everybody else. I actually compared these two in my M-E store and didn't hear any difference.

A question, I realize that your triange speakers are bookshelf, I guess you don't use a sub with RX-1052 you have, you think they have enough bass?

[astravitz]

Thank you for the complement, yes, I completely agree that I didn't hear much difference between the RX-1052 Receiver and separates. In fact if you don't have needs for over 100 watts per/channel other than ego, I can't see the need for separates. I do believe that years ago they made a lot of sense, but with better engineering and design techniques I just didn’t see the need. Also, having a single unit that has a built in tuner, Amplifier, Pre-Amp (yes, you have up to 3 different zones you could output to), and the flexibility of "B" speakers, I felt it was a no brainer.

I have strong suspicions that Rotel uses the exact same quality parts and designs in their stereo receiver and amp. It wouldn’t make sense that a manufacture of essentially the same products to use different parts or techniques. Now you have the argument that separating the preamp from the amp causes less interference, or each component can focus on it’s job. Well perhaps in lesser manufactures this would make a difference, but Rotel has a reputation of making integrated equipment that sounds like separates. My 1065 is a perfect example of this. Bottom line is that if you require more than 100 wpc then separates makes sense, otherwise it just seems like a waste of money.

I’m sure you also noticed that the Tuner in the RX-1052 is exceptional, it’s one of the best tuners I’ve ever owned. It works exceptionally well with the packaged “T” antenna.

Now, about those Triangles... I actually own the “Titus” which are Stereophile Class “B” speakers. Yes, they sound great, but they do tend to have a small sound without much full range. The Comete’s on the other hand have a very warm full sound. Don’t always believe what you read, believe what you hear – they have a perfect controlled bass when paired with quality equipment like the Rotel RX-1065. The actual frequency range of the speakers is listed from 55Hz and 20KHz, but the French seem to have this rated extremely conservatively.

My PSB’s are rated at a lower frequency range and don’t come close in bass reproduction to the Comete's. Any more bass and the neighbours start complaining. There are a number of very positive reviews on the Comete’s although most people jump on the Titus bandwagon. It’s just like the floor standers where the Celius get all the attention over the Antal’s, which some feel sound better.

I listed some of the online reviews below, definitely give them a listen if you get the opportunity. In the end it’s always personal preference. I like to listen to Classical, Jazz, Female Vocals, Opera and occasionally alternative. All require speakers & equipment with excellent separation and true instrument reproduction. All Triangles use paper cone woofers, which are fast, accurate and natural sounding. If I had a lot more space I might consider one of the speakers higher up in the line, but I really am enjoying listening to monitors. With the matching stands (double sets of spikes to isolate – essentially floating the speaker) it’s like the instruments are being held in the air and played, it’s a great effect that makes me smile often.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/comete202_e.html

http://www.audioreview.com/PRD_120715_1594crx.aspx

http://www.ukd.co.uk/scms/news-detail.asp?PKID=70

[spiffnme]

One thing I didn't mention in my pm...

Give the B&W 703 towers a listen. If you really like that sound, the Axiom M60ti sounds VERY, VERY similar. Probably the closest sounding speaker to my M60's that I've heard.

[thyname]

I liked B&W 703s a lot, but at the time I did not pay too much attention at the store to them as they were way above my price range.. I did not like 603s though... please see my PM..

[spiffnme]

Same here. I really liked the 703's when I heard them, hated the 603's. The 703's are really beautiful too. Love their look, but the price is a bit outrageous. If that's the sound you like, be sure to give the Axioms a listen.

[astravitz]

I did also listen to the B & W 703's and thought they were a nice sounding speakers. They had excellent dynamics and sound reproduction. Definately nicer then other B & W's of the past. However, I wasn't impressed with the 704's. I thought the 704's were lacking in some areas. Mostly the bottom end, and the sound wall wasn't as flat as I generally like.

I belive the price for the B&W 703's is over $2k, which makes you want to start looking at some of the Audio Physic Speakers or the new Triangle CELIUS or Antal Es Series.

All of these speakers are excellent and you can't go wrong...

[spiffnme]

The 703's are about $1500 EACH.

Ouch.

[thyname]

I just set up an auditioning visit to a very kind person in DC area for Axiom M60s this Sunday. I'll keep you guys posted what I think about it. Thank you all for all the information and advise.

[thyname]

Hi guys, just wanted to let you know that I just pulled the plug and ordered Axiom M60ti pair of speakers last night, after auditioning them at somebody's place in Washington DC. They were awesome and could not wait any longer but go home and ordered them online, they should be here Wednesday as they ship Feddex Air. Very similar in sound to B&W 703 but much cheaper. I know that I almost settled to stay my JBLs earlier but this "upgradatis" desease is really bad I guess... Besides if I don't like them in my setup, I have 30 days to think, I can turn them back with no questions asked... I'll keep you posted.

Thank you all in this thread for the great advise and help!!!

[spiffnme]

I was pretty sure you'd dig them.

Welcome to the Axiom family.

[Taito]

ThaFreak, I have a pair of JMLab Cobalt 826S on order. Yes, they sound fantastic with Rotel gear. I auditioned plenty of speakers, including B&W 704, Dynaudio 72SE, Sonus Fabre GP, and VAF Research I-66 (plus more from KEF, Paradigm etc).

While they above speakers sounded good (I almost ordered the I-66s), they seemed to lack an elusive quality that I was after. To me, the Cobalts just sounded right -tight bass, with good weight, sweet and detailed treble, excellent imaging and soundstaging and smooth, yet detailed mids.

They should arrive in a few days!!!

[Radec]

Taito, (or anyone else who would like to answer)

Did you audition JM Labs Chorus line vs the Cobalts? Was there a big difference in the lines? If so, what?

I'm auditioning the JMlabs and Monitor Audio Saturday, auditioned Paradigm yesterday (will probably go back Sat...different retailer). I'd be curious to see what others think of the JM Labs as I really haven't heard much of them before.
Honestly, just looking at prices, I was hoping the Chorus line performs well.

Radec

[rhoffman000]

If you can, you should check out Joseph Audio if they're in your area. Truely an awesome speaker and a great price for performance versus what I compared to (B&W Nautilus, JMLabs, Theil, etc...).