Need your input. How does Integra sound?

[martino]

Considering the new DHC-9.9 pre/pro. My current rig is a Rotel 1095 amp and 1098 pre/pro. Went to the shop today to buy the 9.9 and my guy informed me of the upcoming Rotel RSP-1570 pre/pro. (he sells both lines)
He mentioned how the Integra would sound much different than my Rotel. I know Rotel is known for "warmth" and "laid back" sound. My listening room is carpeted with couches..so it's not at all "bright"/
I have B&W 803S fronts and 805S rears.

Just want to get Integra owners opinion on the "Integra sound"

Thanks for reading;

Martin

[DrJRapp]

Integra, at least in the DTC 9.8 is very clean, neutral and linear not having any particular characteristic such as warmth, forwardness, lushness, brightness. Due to it's lack of coloration many people (including myslef) have, at first, called the overall sound, thin.

[Dmantis]

I have installed many Integra products with the same result. I always felt the Integra sound is bright and thin. I would not match up B&W speakers with Integra. Rotel is a much better fit.

Now I personally have not heard the new 9.9 but if history repeats itself, it will sound like the older models.

It's up to you , after owning such a nice Rotel system, you might want to see if you can bring it home for a in home compare. I bet it goes back and you get a new Rotel preamp.

[Burke Strickland]

My own experience with Integra preamps (note I said preamps, not receivers) has been favorable, more in line with DrJRapp's. I'd call their sound "neutral", meaning that they did not add noticable coloration, nor did they take anything out that was supposed to be there. If "nicer" means so-called "warm" or "musical" (which I have heard many people use to describe systems that had smeared, bloated sound which sounded mellow on first listening but grew tiresome) then I'd go for a system that isn't "nicer". :>)

Burke

[comeup]

I'll make it simple,

I love the sound and it's user friendly DTC 9.8, I believe it's pretty much the same piece as the 9.9

[wettou]

I'll make it simple, I love the sound and it's user friendly DTC 9.8, I believe it's pretty much the same piece as the 9.9

I spoke with Audyssey and the said the 9.9 is much much better plus it can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro :B

[Kal Rubinson]

I spoke with Audyssey and the said the 9.9 is much much better plus it can be upgraded to Audyssey Pro :B

I run AudysseyPro on my 9.8. AFAIK, the only differences are Audyssey DynamicEQ/DynamicVolume and the ISF-level video calibrations per input.

Kal

[wettou]

I run AudysseyPro on my 9.8. AFAIK, the only differences are Audyssey DynamicEQ/DynamicVolume and the ISF-level video calibrations per input. Kal

So are you saying that Audyseey is just trying to push boxes? :roll:

[martino]

Sold the 1098, bought DHC 9.9

I must say I am very impressed with my new DHC 9.9 pre/pro. As far as sound goes (still dialing in the sub)..I am very happy I don;t feel I have lost anything in swithcing from Rotel to Integra..In fact two reasons why I feel it BETTER..for my room.
1) my listening room is warm..carpet, curtains, couches and a high ceiling. A little "brightness" is welcome.
2) My first time using an Audessey system..very cool..I feel a greater sense of space and seperation than ever before.

As far as Vidio...again very impressed..the DHC-9.9 has improved upon my picture (I was going straight out of cable box to TV with the 1098, cause no HDMI)..I'll get a Blu-Ray player for xmas..then my wife will understand why I switched (she's a film junkie)

Happy to be a member of "Club Integra"

Martin

[Kal Rubinson]

So are you saying that Audyseey is just trying to push boxes? :roll:

No. All you have to do is cruise the AV forums and you will see people for whom these are important, even critical, advancements.

Kal

[DrJRapp]

No. All you have to do is cruise the AV forums and you will see people for whom these are important, even critical, advancements.

Kal

I would like to provide the counterpoint to Kals statement.

My theater room is very dead like a real movie theater and I have a set of ideally placed perfectly matched speakers, therefore I haven't experienced any benifit, over my own setup, to having Audyssey introduce any audiophile sound effects. Audyssey's "corrections" seem to do nothing but muddy up the sound and suck out the left channel bass. Plus, I get inconsitent results every time I run it. I haven't tried the pro version, however.

[Kal Rubinson]

I would like to provide the counterpoint to Kals statement.

Counterpoint? Did I express an opinion in this thread? I merely stated facts.

My theater room is very dead like a real movie theater and a set of ideally placed perfectly matched speakers, therefore I haven't experienced any benifit, over my own setup, to having Audyseey introduce any audiophile sound effects. I haven't tried the pro version, however.

What a biased statement! What "audiophile sound effects" does Audyssey introduce? The better the room, the more subtle and effective it is. In the limit, it would do nothing in a 'perfect' room........like yours? :roll:

Kal

[DrJRapp]

Kal

I was editing while you were posting...see above.

By "sound effects" I mean the illusion of space that Audyssey creates, or at least is supposed to create. My room may not be perfect (that was your choice of words) but the ability of my 9.8 in my system to suspend disbelief and create a memorable emotional impact in that room without Audyseey is superb. That's what theater sound is supposed to be about..isn't it?

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal

I was editing while you were posting...see above.

By "sound effects" I mean the illusion of space that Audyseey creates.

It introduces no "illusions of space" or other effects. Either you have used it sub-optimally or you simply prefer the room "effects" you have. If you have any data, other than your feelings, I'd love to see them.

Also, this is not the thread for raising such issues, is it?

Kal

[DrJRapp]

Also, this is not the thread for raising such issues, is it?

Kal

Probably not.... it seems I've unintentionally struck some sort of nerve so I'll stop...ok!

[Dmantis]

I would like to provide the counterpoint to Kals statement.

My theater room is very dead like a real movie theater and I have a set of ideally placed perfectly matched speakers, therefore I haven't experienced any benifit, over my own setup, to having Audyssey introduce any audiophile sound effects. Audyssey's "corrections" seem to do nothing but muddy up the sound and suck out the left channel bass. Plus, I get inconsitent results every time I run it. I haven't tried the pro version, however.

According to this post, I see a person stating there opinion of there own experience. Nothing wrong with that. He states he has a dead movie theater meaning quite and non reflective. He ran Audyssey and found it to muddy up his system meaning Lost mid range and clouded it up. Also lost bass. Sounds to me like he does not like the Audyssey calibration. Not everyone likes a correctly calibrated system. Some get used to Coloration. Not saying his is or not. Just saying that in general.

[Dmantis]

Counterpoint? Did I express an opinion in this thread? I merely stated facts.

What a biased statement! What "audiophile sound effects" does Audyssey introduce? The better the room, the more subtle and effective it is. In the limit, it would do nothing in a 'perfect' room........like yours? :roll:

Kal

Perfect he meant Matching speakers. You are correct that the Audyssey would be less effective in a room without Poor acoustics or Many 1st and 2nd order reflections. Audyssey is designed to help correct a not so perfect room. Even a room correctly built treated could have some standing waves or Colorations somewhere. It's very difficult to get a room correct. If there is such a thing.

[Kal Rubinson]

According to this post, I see a person stating there opinion of there own experience. Nothing wrong with that. He states he has a dead movie theater meaning quite and non reflective. He ran Audyssey and found it to muddy up his system meaning Lost mid range and clouded it up. Also lost bass. Sounds to me like he does not like the Audyssey calibration. Not everyone likes a correctly calibrated system. Some get used to Coloration. Not saying his is or not. Just saying that in general.

I was saying the same thing but less gently.

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

Probably not.... it seems I've unintentionally struck some sort of nerve so I'll stop...ok!

Not really. I thought your original choice of words inappropriate. Also, you can raise any topic you wish but there are already several ongoing and lively discussions about Audyssey.

Kal

[DrJRapp]

Not really. I thought your original choice of words inappropriate. Also, you can raise any topic you wish but there are already several ongoing and lively discussions about Audyssey.

Kal

I've often thought many people's choice of words inapropriate, however, I don't believe that gives me license to jump on them.

Kal...Please don't take this wrong. I'm not a published audio critic like you, just a once upon a time long long time ago record producer recording engineer and recording studio designer with my own opinions.

My opinions are just that, opinions... I don't try to objectify something that I believe is subjective.

[Kal Rubinson]

I've often thought many people's choice of words inapropriate, however, I don't believe that gives me license to jump on them.

Kal...Please don't take this wrong. I'm not a published audio critic like you, just a once upon a time long long time ago record producer recording engineer and recording studio designer with my own opinions.

My opinions are just that, opinions... I don't try to objectify something that I believe is subjective.

OK. Not trying pull rank. Just pointing out that my posts, before your initial response to me, did not offer any of my opinions at all.

Kal

[DrJRapp]

OK. Not trying pull rank. Just pointing out that my posts, before your initial response to me, did not offer any of my opinions at all.

Kal

No harm, no foul. It appears you didn't like my use of "counterpoint" which you interpreted in the journalistic sense, where I intended in the musical sense ie: referring to notes of an accompaniment written over or under the notes of a plain song.

I guess one of the liabilities of being in your position is the fact that you are somewhat shacked in expressing you opinions for fear of it seeming like a product endorsement or the opposite.

[DrJRapp]

Even a room correctly built treated could have some standing waves or Colorations somewhere. It's very difficult to get a room correct. If there is such a thing.

There is such a thing, it's called an Anechoic Chamber, speaker manufacturers use them to test speaker response, electronics manufacturers use them for testing purposes, automobile manufacturers test them for testing noise and vibration and I could go on and on. The same treatment principals are used in the design of recording studios and commercial movie theaters. My theater was designed by the local experts in Architectural Acoustics and built on those principals. One of the benefits I have of being in the buisness I am in is the access I have to the talents and materials to make that happen.

An audio system in an anechoic chamber will sound just like it does in an open field without any room interfaces.

The downside of such a dead room is much higher (acoustical) power requirements to achieve a given perceived SPL due to the large percentage of the sound being absorbed.

[Kal Rubinson]

There is such a thing, it's called an Anechoic Chamber, speaker manufacturers use them to test speaker response, electronics manufacturers use them for testing purposes, automobile manufacturers test them for testing noise and vibration and I could go on and on. The same treatment principals are used in the design of recording studios and commercial movie theaters. My theater was designed by the local experts in Architectural Acoustics and built on those principals. One of the benefits I have of being in the buisness I am in is the access I have to the talents and materials to make that happen.

An audio system in an anechoic chamber will sound just like it does in an open field without any room interfaces.

The downside of such a dead room is much higher (acoustical) power requirements to achieve a given perceived SPL due to the large percentage of the sound being absorbed.

I am sorry if I am opening another can of worms but are you saying that your room is anechoic or that it is designed and treated to approach that? I ask because I really wonder if listening in a completely anechoic chamber could be satisfying. (Not in my experience, btw.)

First, recordings are mixed and made on the presumption that the playback room is not anechoic. The mixing rooms are not, afaik, nor are movie theaters. Some recording rooms/booths may approach anechoic.

Second, just being in an anechoic chamber is disconcerting and uncomfortable. You can often hear your own pulse. Only the on-axis radiation of speakers, regardless of design, reaches your ears.

So, I hope you are not saying that your well-designed room is anechoic. How about a picture or description?

Kal

[Kal Rubinson]

I guess one of the liabilities of being in your position is the fact that you are somewhat shacked in expressing you opinions for fear of it seeming like a product endorsement or the opposite.

Yes. While I am happy to endorse a product, I do try to be very careful so that it is clear if I am making an endorsement or if I am merely discussing it.

Kal

[DrJRapp]

Kal

I'd like to respond to your comments even though it takes this thread way way off topic. My apologies to anyone still wanting to post about Integra sound quality . Yes, I am saying the room is designed to "approach" an anechoic chamber. Yes it does sound eriee to the uninformed when you walk in and nothing is playing. To describe it in a manner which many can relate, ambient room sounds resemble the interior of a hearing test booth. ...However it does give the clearest dialog and surround steering I've ever heard. It allows for the faintest sound on the tract to be clearly descerned....talk about a "black backgrond"!

Speaker placement was critical and took a lot of trial and error experimentation to avoid any "holes". I am not even sure that I am 100% there yet. I use Klipsch wide dispersion technology surrounds which have dispersion characteristics that resemble dipoles or I probably would have had to go to multiple surrounds as in a movie theater to avoid the sound "jumping" from fronts to surrounds to rears. Without low frequency reverberation the subwoofer is a bit too easy to locate so I will probably go to multiple subs when finances allow. Right now using my mains on large to avoid shifting too much low frequency information to the sub helps in that regard.

Now how did I accomplish this? Besides room proportions that were computer developed by an architect, who specializes in acoustical projects like theaters and concert halls, the construction is somewhat unique.

The walls and soffits are constructed of 2 layers of 1&3/8 (yes inch and three eigths) THX Quietrock laid up at 90 degree angles to each other to stagger the joints. Regular drywall acts much like a drum head. absorbing then releasing acoustical energy to create what we call "reflections. Quietrock is filled with gelatinous vinyl that absorbs acoustic energy in it's mass. This accomplishes two things, quells reflections and transmission through the wall. The opposite side of the right wall of the theater is the bedroom wing of the house. The opposite side of the front wall is the living room. Only the lowest inaudible frequencies make it through the wall, and the only way I know that is because the pictures hanging on that wall will wind up tilted after a good night of movie watching. Infrasonic vibration is most likely the cause.

All penetrations for wiring etc are sealed with putty packs or Dynamat surrounding individual boxes to prevent sound exfiltration and infiltration. Recessed lighting cans in the ceiling are fire rated sealed enclosures covered with Dynamat. The walls are finished with black heavy sound absorbent microfiber velveteen. Tray ceiling top is Armstrong Theater Black 2x2 tegular edge with the narrow grid. One 6" layer of fibrous glass insulation is above the ceiling. Seating is by Bass, their Imperial Rockers in sound absorbent microfiber. Flooring is the carpet that Regal uses in their theaters. The second seating level raised platform and stage are constructed of wood and sand filled.

It is really a great room for movies. The sound is totally non fatiguing and avoids adding any unintended emotion. I think the silence helps create the "suspension of disbelief" that I was seeking. I believe that if I used it for music, I would want a room with a bit more life, however I do my music listening elsewhere.

I also designed the room to be heavily light absorbent as well as sound so mostly everyting is black and doesn't photograph well....I do have some pics but they are on another computer. I'll find them and get them up here.

I spent a lot on the construction of the room so my gear is not first rate yet, but it is all among the best in it's price class IMHO. It gets the job done for the moment. The experience is very immersive and convincing and rivals the best commercial theaters. Better gear will come in time.

PS: The room does a great job of silencing those occupants who just can't seem to keep their mouth shut during a movie (like my 14 yo daughter).

[DrJRapp]

I did have a pic or two on this computer. These were taken during construction, prior to completion.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal

I'd like to respond to your comments even though it takes this thread way way off topic. My apologies to anyone still wanting to post about Integra sound quality . Yes, I am saying the room is designed to "approach" an anechoic chamber .................................................. ............................
........................................
I spent a lot on the construction of the room so my gear is not first rate yet, but it is all among the best in it's price class IMHO. It gets the job done for the moment. The experience is very immersive and convincing and rivals the best commercial theaters. Better gear will come in time.

PS: The room does a great job of silencing those occupants who just can't seem to keep their mouth shut during a movie (like my 14 yo daughter).

Interesting. I wonder if you have ever measured the room with, say, RoomEQ Wizard or similar.

[DrJRapp]

Interesting. I wonder if you have ever measured the room with, say, RoomEQ Wizard or similar.

I'll probably get around to it someday if I ever have time on my hands. As I said, I'm very happy with it's performance so I really don't have the need nor the curiosity to measure the results with anything but ears.

You may recall a featured article in AVS about 6-8 months ago about a home theater in Boca Raton that was designed to resemble the bridge of the Starship Enterprise Next Generation. That was a $2million adventure by my same acoustic design team, and dealer where I get a lot of my gear.

OBTW, You, or anyone else for that matter are welcome to drop buy and watch a movie, if you are ever in South Florida. I'm just north of WPB. Friday night I had a croud in for some wine and to watch the Dark Knight...it was an amazing experience that my friends are still talking about.