POWER CONDITIONING for the Halo Amps?

[nicholtl]

Hey all. So I've been doing a ton of reseach on this subject, and the question I have is whether anyone has any experience, 1st or 2nd hand, on power conditioning for the Halo amps? I've even spoken to Parasound about it. While they generally suggest the amps plug straight into a wall, there is a ton -- make that a PLETHORA -- of products out now that are specifically designed to accomodate the biggest and baddest of amps. Parasound's Tech dudes acknowledge this, but haven't had a chance to test their amps with any of the latest products.

I've always been afraid of these conditioners limiting the dynamics of the Halo amps because they would never provide sufficient power. I even own 2 of Monster Power's top-of-the-line products (power conditioner and voltage stabilizer) but I only plug my source components and the C2 into them. I know for a FACT that either the A51 or A21 would fry those things.

Anyway, to get to the point, after a days worth of reading/calling, I've successfully narrowed all the choices down to the only 2 products that have been highly praised and received GLEAMING reviews by almost all audiophile magazines, professional reviewers, and high-end audio stores in the greater Los Angeles (yes, I'm telling you, I DID MY RESEARCH). What are the 2, you ask?

The PS Audio Power Plant P-1200 (delivers 1200 watts continuous), and the Exact Power EP15A (delivers 1800 watts continuous), although their power delivery systems are inherently unique. Whereas the PS Audio completely reconstructs/regenerates the AC power from the wall, the Exact Power converts the existing power from the socket to precisely match a perfect sine wave before pumping it back out in real time. So...

...I just want to know if anyone here has any further input, because if these products really do work, then by golly I think we should buy them as they will only make our investment exponentially more enjoyable, bringing us one step closer to audio nirvana (if you're not already there).

http://www.exactpower.com/reviews.html

VS.

http://128.121.62.219/volume_8_2/ps-audio-p1200-6-2001.html

[Chris D]

The PS Audio Power Plant P-1200 (delivers 1200 watts continuous), and the Exact Power EP15A (delivers 1800 watts continuous),

:E Whoa... that's pretty amazing. Yup, those should cover power requirements with overkill. Before I take the time and get into the reviews, dare I ask how much the $$$ is?

[nicholtl]

Chris, you think those would be able to cover the A51, much less the A51 AND the A21 combined? I mean, the A51 alone puts out 1250 watts max, meaning it draws about 1500 watts to do so???

The PS Audio P-1200 retails for $4000, and the Exact Power EP15A (power conditioner and voltage stabilizer) costs about $2000, although the unit you're SUPPOSED to get with it, the SP15A (line balancer) costs about $900. So in total, about $3000. The Exact Power combo uses half the energy though, and produces much less heat.

[ralniv]

I'm not familiar with the PS Audio unit, but the EP15A is not current limiting. This means that if the current draw is too high then it will automatically switch output to the wall outlet; output is automatically switched back once the current draw decreases.

I personally have the EP15A and an A51 amp that are both brand new. I'll report back once I get the chance to test out the A51 plugged into the EP15A and also plugged directly into my Brick Wall PW2RAUD surge supressor (bypass the EP15A).

[nicholtl]

Oh wow, a member that actually has one of these units! Cool! Yeah, if you could do a little A/B demo with the EP15A and with the wall socket, to test out the difference in sound it makes (if any), that would be really great.

[Chris D]

Yeah, comparisons would be good.

I do think that either unit would work fine. The A51 isn't going to be putting out anything close to 1250 watts unless it is fully topped out. I think the day I max out my Halo amps is the day that my speakers, main electrical box, eardrums, wallet, and wife all explode simultaneously. I wouldn't plug both a A21 and A51 into the same unit, though, unless you had to.

Me, I can't afford any fancy power conditioning units right now with my other stuff, so I (gasp) currently just have the A51 and A21 plugged straight into the wall. (dedicated circuit outlets, though) Wish I could do more.

[nicholtl]

Well while we wait for ralniv's report, I do have this to say:

I spoke with both an engineer from PS Audio, as well as a Parasound dealer I think we all know very well around here. Both said the same thing to such a convincing degree that I was a believer. That the PS Audio P1000 was perfect for the A51 and A21 combo. Even with quite a bit of other gear plugged into it (like a C1, front projector, etc.), during heavy bass or dynamic passages, the wattage spiked to about 800 or so watts. 800 watts with BOTH amps plugged in, the C1 plugged in, a bunch of other source equipment plugged in, and all channels BLAZING. And like you said, Chris, the day the Halo amps draw anywhere near their rated potential would be the day we lose our hearing.

So I've pretty much decided on the P1000. Yup, I'm sold. I will definitely be reporting back on what I find. But I'd like to also hear what ralniv finds. This way we will all know what effects conditioners/regerators have on the beasts which we otherwise have always believed and been told should always go directly into the dirty-socket-power-walls. :T

[ralniv]

I wanted to check in to let y'all know that I haven't forgotten about this post. Unfortunately, my speakers are being hand built and are taking some time to complete. I will be back to share my impressions of the EP15A's impact on sound.

[nicholtl]

Cool cool. I'll have my reports on the PS Audio gear in a week or two also.

[Peter Nielsen]

And like you said, Chris, the day the Halo amps draw anywhere near their rated potential would be the day we lose our hearing.

Well, that really depends on how efficient your speakers are. With speakers as inefficient as Maggies, I really can see it happening... :B

[nicholtl]

My speakers are extremely efficient. I run a 7.1 setup with 2 pairs of Klipsch RF7's, RF5's (center surrounds), and an RC7 (center).

[Whistler]

Hi,

Go for the Exact Power EP15A and an Exact Power SP15A, you won't be dissapointed. PS Audio is way overpriced and it's limited.

Regards,

Whistler

[nicholtl]

Wow, what a sweeping generalization.

[Whistler]

Wow, what a sweeping generalization.

Hi,

PS Audio 1000 --> 5.699,- Euro
Exact Power EP15A and an Exact Power SP15A --> +/- 2000,- Euro

Has nothing to do with sweeping generalization, if you don't call that overpriced, you are probably swimming in money . And besides that, with 3 Halo A 21 I will push an PS Audio 1000 over it's limit.

Regards,

Whistler

[nicholtl]

Well granted, in euros PS Audio, or any American high end product, is probably way more expensive that if you bought it here. But adding up your amp wattages isn't necessarily an accurate way of measuring what the power plants can or cannot handle.

[cameronl]

hi there guys, if i were to invest in a cheaper mains block i.e. russ andrews silencer or maybe even an isotek minsub II would these possibly worsen the sound of my A52?

I know they would be fine for the C2, DVD 88+p etc... but its the power amps that concern me.

thanks for your time.

CaM

[nicholtl]

Whoa, totaly forgot about this thread. It's been a little longer than expected but I should be getting the PS Audio stuff soon, so I'll have some things to report in that regard.

Cameroni, do you have links to those 2 products you mentioned? Are they different types of line conditioners?

[cameronl]

hm...

actually the silencer block probably doesn't recondition, it's just a good quality mains block which also acts as a silencer. I'll probably just get that one as since it isn't conditioning the mains it shouldn't hurt it?

thanks

CaM

Whoa, totaly forgot about this thread. It's been a little longer than expected but I should be getting the PS Audio stuff soon, so I'll have some things to report in that regard.

Cameroni, do you have links to those 2 products you mentioned? Are they different types of line conditioners?

[Chris CRt]

I might be late on this one, but I had a similar question for Paul at Parasound about the power conditioners.

Right now, I have a Monster HTS-7000 Power Conditioner and a Monster AVS-2000 Voltage Regulator in my system. The A51 and A21 are hooked up in the amplifier section on the HTS-7000. The HTS-7000 is plugged into the AVS-2000, and the AVS-2000 is plugged into the walll outlet.

I use to have the amps plugged into the AVS-2000 only and everything else in the HTS-7000.

Paul told me to just plug the amps directly into the wall outlet and bypass all the conditioning/voltage regulators. He told me they are going to pull more juice than what they are going to supply the amps. I've been putting this off for fear of a lightning strike or something, but he told me not to worry about that. My speakers are 4 ohms, and I bet that is part of the reasoning for me to bypass the conditioner/vr all together. I guess I could experiement with that this weekend. Anyone else been told this?

[nicholtl]

Funny, I have the exact same units as you Chris, not to mention that exact same question some 4-5 months ago. I A-B demoed my A51 and A21 with the Monster HTS 7000 and AVS 2000. Just for the record, not a single person, Parasound engineer or dealer that I spoke to, condoned this. The ONLY people who said this was ok was, of course, Monster's reps. After all, if there was a port labelled "high powered amp," then by golly us consumers should be able to plug a high powered amp in there, right?

Not the case. Plug them directly into the wall. At least, until you decide to do something like an Exact power EP-15 and SP-15 combo, or what I'm doing, which will be a PS Audio P-1000 Powerplant. Those are entirely different stories. Slapping your amps into the Monster units only serves to limit the dynamics and crush the transients. Psychological trick, you ask? Hell no, both my parents are shrinks and I know what is mind-over-matter and what is not. I'm telling you, the Monster units do not do the Halo amps justice by any stretch of the imagination.

So in my opinion, as far as the Monster units go, well, they don't. Go the distance, that is. They do fine, awesome even, with all other source equipment, but were not designed for 250 watt monsters. 125 watt puppies, maybe. But certainly not for what you have. So plug all your other gear, including the C1, into them, but leave the power-guzzling amps out of the chain and in the wall sockets.

[Chris CRt]

Thanks for the quick reply nicholtl!

Damn you on the PS Audio! My dealer, Mr. Huskins, told me about them right after I got the Monster stuff. They are sexy little beasts and will blend nicely into the Halo mix. I've heard a bunch about them, but I have a few more things to finish off before I replace the Monster stuff.

I'll be completely honest with you, there will be times I'm watching a movie and go, "Man, this system is incredible! The sound is stunning!". I'll watch the same movie a few days later and go, "Hmm, I need to tweak again. This doesn't sound right." I'm wondering if that has to do with the power going to the amps? I swear, there are days when I can hear the AVS-2000 go "ker-chunk" when I've got something up near reference. I'm definitely going to test out "the wall plugs" this weekend.

It's funny you mentioned calling Monster. I did the same thing and they were clueless. They told me to plug the HTS-7000 into the wall and the AVS-2000 in the wall as well. I was like, "Um, how do these work together? And what is my AVS-2000 regulating?" Then they changed their mind and said plug it inot the AVS-2000 and put everything into the HTS-7000. That was a comforting conversation! :E

I'll let you know what I find out.

(P.S. about that Parasound DVD player, I have had my "backup" picked out just in case they scrap the idea again. I'm thinking that Onkyo in silver would look sharp next to the Halo stuff! And it appears it's getting great reviews too. Have you looked at that player?)

[nicholtl]

Well, I have 9 DVD players. But Onkyo wasn't one of them. My reference DVD player is the Denon 3800, which I feel is better than the Pioneer Elite 59AVi, which I reserve for dedicated SACD and DVD-A playback only. It's 1080i "upconversion" still doesn't hold a candle next to the Denon's 480p. I'm basically holding out until either a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD format wins, and players for that format come out, before I replace my trusty 3800.

[cameronl]

hi there all, I'm scared to plug my A52 in to the wall!

can I put it on a multi-box all by itself to give it some protection?

thanks

CaM

[nicholtl]

I would think the A52 is pretty robust under the tank-like housing. I wouldn't be too scared of it getting fried by a power surge. But maybe someone else, like Brent, can answer this better for you.

[ThomasW]

Power amps can be plugged into and do benefit from power conditioning IF it's properly sized to the amp/amps. This means that 'little' conditioners need not apply.

I use isolation/voltage stabilization transformers and balanced power devices on ALL my power amps. (note we're talking about a quad amped system, using active crossovers, with multiple 400 watt/channel amps for just the L>R mains).

Good citizens don't buy monster products simply because of their crappy corporate practices

The PS Audio regenerators work fine IF one wants to live with a high output space heater turned on at all time. And unfortunately they end up being extremely expensive if one needs multiple kilowatts of power.

A more cost effective approach is to use balanced power devices (and no not necessarily the BPT brand). There are good quality are BP devices available for reasonable prices. I have years of experience with multiple different brands of balanced power devices. And the reality is that they all sound the same pretty much regardless of cost.

The cheapest 'protection' for one's entire system is pay the approx $400 or so, and have an electrician install a whole-house surge protection. Obviously those do not limit the dynamics of anyone's system.

If you need to clean up the power, increase common mode rejection, etc, etc, then go with isolation and or balanced power devices.

People might want to start a thread on one of the larger general topic forums at HT-Guide, to get specific feedback from people with hands on experience with these devices. There's nothing Halo specific about these products.

Hope this helps,

Thomas

[dts_boy]

cameronl, i have my c2, a52 and dv27 all plugged into an 8 way olson block which i have rewired using chord oddysesy speaker cable. sounds fantastic and does the trick just fine, i showed it to the dealer who has also made one for himself! don't worry about mains strikes, if you want to improve the power delivery, i would get a separate spur fitted from your consumer unit by a qualified electrician - this is cheaper and imo, better than the standard range of mains "cleaners".

[nicholtl]

By why just surge protect when you could potentially filter, clean, and balance the power at the same time?

[ThomasW]

don't worry about mains strikes

Reasonable advise since absolutely nothing stops a lightning strike. Surges however are a different situation and therefore solvable problem, the same is true with brownouts.

Most high-end electronics are ok with sags until the line voltage goes down lower than ~106VAC, then problems start. Obviously this is different for people living in countries where 220 is the 'norm'

The recommendation for dedicated line or lines is a very good idea. Unfortunately the chances for ground loop potential (hum) increases with more than one line, unless the lines are balanced.

By why just surge protect when you could potentially filter, clean, and balance the power at the same time?

No problem but larger A/V systems with big projectors, multiple big amps, etc, need big time current. So something like this is nice.



http://www.equitech.com/products/wall/wall.html

Devices like the EP units are fine for 'point-of-use' situations. But are a pain use if the need is to distribute clean, filtered, stabilized, balanced power throughout the room or to multiple rooms.

One can save by using wall mount boxes since one isn't paying for the 'audio-jewelry' aspect of the high-end milled billet aluminium chassis, etc. That kind of 'eye-candy' doesn't improve the sonics, although it certainly looks cool .. :wink:

There are some 'deals' out there if anyone is interested, and a little bit handy with a soldering iron. Equi=Tech has some of their massive 60lb 2kVA (20 amp)balanced transformers available in a standard grey utility box for $500. Adding in aftermarket EMI/RFI filtration, and some GFI's would cost approx $100 or less depending on one's scrounging skills.

[cameronl]

thanks all for the advice - I'll just plug the lot into my russ andress multi-box then

CaM