Opinions wanted

[psychdoc]

Hey guys,
I’d like to read the opinions of my fellow Parasound owners out there. If you had to buy speakers right now to match your parasound equipment, what would you buy? For me, I am 99.9999999% HT and 0.000000001% music mostly during the holidays. For a budget think around 10K for the mains and another 7-8K for a center channel (worry about surrounds later). I currently have a fantastic Def Tech setup and mostly love the mains but have always felt underwhelmed with the CLR3000 center for its clarity, accuracy and detail. Because most info comes from the center, it is REALLY important to me to have it be the star of the show.

For a select few of you out there (and you know who you are) this type of budget is very small but I would still love to hear your opinions. I am getting a bad case of upgrade-itis and now think it would be fun to tweak the whole system. I have listened to Martin Logan years ago and was amazed at the detail of the music (it was out of my budget range as a lowly medical student at that time) so I am especially interested if anyone has opinions on these or others that I have never seen in person (Paradigm, B&W). Auditioning anything out here in Hawaii is next to impossible so well informed opinions matter a lot. Thanks everyone.

[CP-Mike]

Are there things that you definitely DON'T want in the "sound" of your system? Do you really listen to music as rarely as you say? Man, I can't comprehend what it would be like to never listen to music through such a fantastic system as you will have once you drop that kind of cash on new speakers.

It's going to be really tough buying speakers "blind", that is, without auditioning them. I did it, but I was only spending $1000 on entry-level speakers. I would strongly recommend that you try anything and everything locally, in your own room if possible. If nothing else, it may help you identify things you don't like.

You can't go wrong with the B&W 800 series, or the Paradigm Studio series. Lots of people like em, although personally I'd go with the B&W over Paradigm. I had A/B'd some Paradigm speakers with a few others back when I was first looking for speakers. They were the bookshelves, studio v2. I was very underwhelmed with the sound, they sounded muddy compared to the other speakers I tried, but apparently the v3's sound a lot better. :: shrug ::

Anyway, I hope somebody who has tried a lot more speakers in this price range than I have (none) will chime in here. I'm interested to see what people like out there besides B&W and Paradigm. :: subscribes to thread ::

Since you're mostly into HT, you're definitely going to need a good sub. Do you already have one? If so, what?

[psychdoc]

CP-Mike, I really would like to audition everything but you would be surprised to find almost no high-end showrooms around here in Honolulu (I think I must have one of the best systems in all of Hawaii).

I'm hoping to get a consensus from my fellow Parasound owners on what are the very best speakers in my price range (mentioned above) so when I’m back on the mainland I can go exploring to showrooms to listen to the top 3 or 4 speaker types. All of the suggestions here would also allow me to do some literature research (official reviews) in the right areas.

As far as having a sub, I don’t have one. My opinion about the Def Tech’s I own is that they almost go too far overboard with the bass already. I love the loud explosions, don’t get me wrong, and my next speakers MUST have at least the same bass but I am hoping to find speakers to make up for the shortcomings of Def Tech (detail, clarity etc).

I’ve heard great things about B&W 800D but this is an example of something that is clearly out of my budget range. The lower 800 series are supposed to be good (from reviews) but I would love to read what people have to say that did A/B comparisons. I am particularly interested on what is considered the very best center channel out there (but, once again, not a center channel that costs 30K).

Here is my system:

Main: Definitive Technology BP 2000tl
Center: Definitive Technology C/L/R 3000
Surrounds: Definitive Technology BPVX x 4 (7.1 system)
Pre/Pro: Parasound NewClassic 7100
Amp(s): Parasound NewClassic 5250
Parasound NewClassic 2250 (ordered long ago so hopefully soon)
DVD: Denon 2910
Power Conditioner: Monster Power AVS 2000
Power Filter: HTPS 7000
Display: Samsung HLR-6768w (67” 1080P DLP) with factory stand

[mitch57]

psychdoc,

I retired from the Navy in 1997 and spent my last 7 years in Honolulu. Man do I miss it!

I hear (literally) where your coming from on speakers but some of your problems in the center speaker may be related to room acoustics.

I, like you, also have a Def Tech system. Here's my setup:
Denon 3805 Receiver
Parasound Halo A51 5 Channel Power Amp
Def Techs BP 7002s
Def Techs CLR 2500
Def Techs BP 2Xs
Integra DPC 8.5 DVD Changer
Panasonic TH-50PX50U 50" Plasma TV
Direct TV TiVo HR10-250 HD DVR
Richard Gray RGPC 400 MK II (2 each).
PS Audio UPC-200HB Hum Buster
Impact Acoustics interconnects
URC MX-700 remote control

I listen to about 60% music and 40% movies. I only listen to Multi-Channel DVD-A and SACD music. I have over 230 DVD-A and SACD multi-channel albums and my collection continues to grow. I really like my system. Although I know there are better speakers out there such as the B&Ws and the Paradigms.

As much movies as you watch I'm not to sure that your going to get any better then the CLR 3000 unless you spend the big bucks! After all, I don't know of any other center speakers that include a built in subwoofer and since most of the movie dialog comes from the center speaker it can be a real asset.

Perhaps you should re-calibrate your system using a Radio Shack SPL meter and one of the better calibration DVDs out there. This might improve some of the accoustics in your room.

Either way, let us know what you wind up doing.

Aloha! And good luck!

[CP-Mike]

Well right near the top of your budget are the acclaimed Wilson Audio Sophias, which are a small step down from the highly-regarded WA Watt/Puppies. I've not heard either speaker, but I "see" them in reference systems all the time. The biggest downside of them for me are the aesthetics, something that the B&W 802's and up excel in. Their look is so distinctive, so unique, and the cabinets just ooze sophistication and quality. The Wilsons, like many other high-end speakers, frankly look boring in comparison. "Just another boxy speaker". Granted, looks are not what one should buy speakers based on, but I have to admit, what a speaker will look like in my living room does play a role in my decision process, and that's even before taking the wife factor into consideration.

[psychdoc]

Hey Mitch,
Glad to hear you liked it so much out here. I am currently a doc in the Army. At times I think just about everyone out here is connected to the military in some way.

I am sure you are right and there are other factors affecting my center channel speaker. Most of all, it is under my 67" DLP. Before it was always on top of my old RPTV firing downward at ear level. Now, with DLP's being so slim, you have no choice but to put that heavy beast (CLR 3000) near the floor. I can easily hear the difference. I really can't think of an elegant solution to this problem that will work in the room. I can think of a few very ugly solutions but the wife will certainly object and I don't need that headache.

CP-Mike,
Thanks for the tip on the Sophias- I never heard of them. Aesthetics mean a lot to me as well. I really enjoy looking at the system ALMOST as much as hearing it..... well maybe not almost but it still counts a lot. I'm still surprised nobody has anything to say about Martin Logans. I always thought they were supposed to be near the top of the list.

[Peter Nielsen]

Well right near the top of your budget are the acclaimed Wilson Audio Sophias, which are a small step down from the highly-regarded WA Watt/Puppies.

I recently auditioned a Watt Puppy 7 & Musical Fidelity combo and a B&W 802 & Classé combo set up at a Musical Event at Audio Advice in Raleigh. Representatives from Wilson and B&W were present.

The Watt Puppy 7 sounded SUPERB! I was really amazed. In some respects it outdid my 20.1 Maggies. The only thing the Puppy had a problem with was imaging. IMHO the MG 20.1 is the winner in this respect...

The B&W 802 left me totally unimpressed. IMHO they could not even come close to compete with my Maggies, and of course the Watt Puppy 7 beats it in ALL aspects if you ask me....

Wilson sure makes awesome speakers! :T

Peter

[Paul H]

...
As far as having a sub, I don’t have one. My opinion about the Def Tech’s I own is that they almost go too far overboard with the bass already. I love the loud explosions, don’t get me wrong, and my next speakers MUST have at least the same bass but I am hoping to find speakers to make up for the shortcomings of Def Tech (detail, clarity etc). ...

It seems like a total shame to be talking about the kind of $ and systems being kicked around in this thread without pointing out the absolute importance of a subwoofer (or two or four) for high end sound. Even if you don't want monster low end bass, real subs (15" or 18" drivers) will take the load off the other speakers and allow them to play more clearly in the frequency ranges they're really capable of. I'm sure the little 10" "sub" drivers built into the def techs are trying their best, but they don't cut it for the type of $ and quality this thread is covering. They simply can't move enough air for low bass, and end up distorting as a result.

You may still wish to upgrade later on, but even your current speakers will sound better with subs;not just for explosions and rumbling, but vocals too.

Paul

[Shane Martin]

As far as having a sub, I don’t have one. My opinion about the Def Tech’s I own is that they almost go too far overboard with the bass already. I love the loud explosions, don’t get me wrong, and my next speakers MUST have at least the same bass but I am hoping to find speakers to make up for the shortcomings of Def Tech (detail, clarity etc).

Beyond the fact they are shrill speakers to me, the biggest short coming is the so called subwoofer in their cabinet. First of all subs are not ideal where your mains are so that poses a big problem and secondly I think that subs built into the cabinet of a speaker cause some issues and tends to muddy up the midrange. I had speakers with large 15" woofers in them and that's exactly what happened.

The easiest solution is to buy an external sub for music & HT duty or do w/o. A detached subwoofer will produce better and more prodigous bass than you are used to and it will be cleaner as well as far as the sound goes.

If you are spending that much, audition as much as possible. Vandersteen would be at the top of my list for sure as well as others. The others like Paradigm and such are pretenders IMHO at this level of the game for speakers.

You should also look at the following:

ACI: Factory direct from Wisconsin and gorgeous speakers. Mike D is great to work with.
VMPS: should give you the prodigious bass you like but they are big speakers. They demand attention.


For 17k, you should for sure audition. I'm sure part of that budget could take care of flight tickets and auditioning money to make sure you are happy. I don't know how many high end brands are there but you could get a cheap flight to LA or SF and go to town there and audition tons.

[psychdoc]

Thanks for all the tips. I certainly will consider all the words of advice given above. As far as timing, things have changed. My wife and I just spotted a gorgeous house for 900K that we will be buying. So, my speakers will need to wait a year or so. The good thing is that their new home will be much more spacious. Surprisingly, the wife really is into a dedicated room for all the equipment now. I always suspected her grumbling about the HT was just a cover :W

[CP-Mike]

Good choice. I would much rather have a $900k house by the beach (yeah, anything in Hawaii is "by the beach" as far as I'm concerned) than a $17k upgrade to my A/V gear.

Another speaker I've been looking at lately that's a little below your $10k / pair budget are the Dali Euphonia MS-5's. So far I've seen nothing but positive opinions on them. Apparently they're detailed without being harsh, smooth, have large sweet spots, and sound great on a wide variety of music.

Peter, would you mind filling us in on why you didn't like the B&W's? I've never been ableto get a clear picture of why some people love B&W and why some people strongly dislike them. I've never auditioned them because their local dealer (also sells Paradigm) is a complete jerk (said that the stuff in my system was "worthless"). Anyway, I respect your opinion because you tell it like it is, so let's have it. Specifically, why did you not like the B&W 802's? Were those the "biggest" ones you heard? Were they the new 802D's? It seems that now, every time somebody says they don't like the 800 series, some B&W fanatic is quick to point out "well the new D's sound FAR better, so of course you didn't like em"....

[Peter Nielsen]

Peter, would you mind filling us in on why you didn't like the B&W's?

They had the diamond tweeter, so I'm pretty sure they were the 'D' model.

First, let me point out that I didn't say they sounded *bad*. Not at all. However, after auditioning the Watt Puppies, they just sounded kind of "flat" in comparison. The Watt Puppies definitely had better imaging. The Puppies also seemed to be much more dynamic or more "alive".

However, frankly, the culprit might have been the Classé equipment. The Watt Puppies were driven with the big Musical Fidelity kW750 and a Musical Fidelity preamp. The 802s were driven with one of the bigger Classé Delta series stereo amps and a Classé preamp. (The source was the same). Maybe the 802s would have sounded much better with the Musical Fidelity gear? It's very possible that the lack of dynamics can be blamed on Classé and not the 802Ds...

Peter

[nicholtl]

But Classe Delta series components are pretty fine sounding, if you ask me. Maybe the 802D's would've been better off paired with Classe's Omega series, although I realize that is about 10-times the price-range of the Musical Fidelity gear.

[Ends]

I have JM Labs Electra 926's and I love them - great sound stage. JM Labs just released a HT version (fronts/center/rears) of the Electra BE Special Ed (mains only) that was in limited production a little over a year ago. I believe that the Electra verson I have has been discontinued and replaced with the new 1000 BE line. Great tweater!!! The Electra 1000 BE line is as close as one can come to the premium Utopia line without coughing up 30-50K. I believe that the fronts are ~ 6-7k and the center is ~5k with the backs ~4K.

Great speakers you should give them an audition.

http://www.focal.tm.fr/home/en/electra1000be/index.htm

[tmwalsh]

Hi again Psychdoc. Von Schweikert Audio is based in CA (san diego?) and I'm relatively new to their products, but they sure seem to put our competative products at competative prices. Their website might be the most detailed, information packed site I've ever seen. And as for WAF, the finishes are some of the best looking around, IMO.

Although, styrofoam cups and a piece of string would look and sound great in Hawaii, I'm guessing.

[Chris D]

Hi, Ends, and welcome to the Guide and Club Parasound! :banana:

For me, I still think that if I could pair my Halo equipment with any SEMI-REALISTICALLY priced speaker package (i.e. not $100K per speaker) I'd go with Magnepans. Next choice Martin Logans.

[Elsiejr]

Take a look at Revel Ultima Utopias

Greetings - I have owned speakers made by Martin Logan, NHT, Sonus Faber, & JM Labs, but the best, I believe, are Revel Ultima Studios. (I also think the Revel low end, the M20s, are a tremendous value, but you’re looking high end)

In my experience, the Martin Logans sound fantastic for some music (female vocals, small chamber ensembles), but for many recordings, including rock, orchestra, etc. not satisfactory at all. If I were looking at speakers in your budget, I would absolutely listen to the Revels.

BTW – my usage is probably 60% music and 40% home theater. My current set-up includes a Parasound C2, Pass Labs X-250s, Marantz SA-11S1 (for CD & SACD), Denon 2900 (DVD-A and DVD-V), and Revel Ultima Studios up front. Good luck!

[Chris D]

Hiya, Elsiejr, welcome to the Guide and Club Parasound for you too! :banana: Looks like you got some nice toys there...

[Elsiejr]

Thanks - and I'm waiting (like all the rest) for the D3 to replace the 2900!

[blownrx7]

psychodoc,

I have Von Schweikert speakers as well and I am very happy with them. They are a great value compared to a lot of the others out there. Tight, punchy bass, solid midrange and smooth highs. Excellent imaging but must be placed properly due to the rear firing drivers. It's not super critical - they do have a large sweet spot - they just can't be too close to the rear wall due to the rear drivers.
I also had Legacy speakers and was VERY happy with them - another value/dollar speaker that cannot be beat at the price point. The Focus 20/20 and the Silver Screen work wonderfully together. Again, placement is very important but not hard since they also have a very large sweet spot. You could spend more but you won't get more.
You could go all out and pick up the Whisper's/Marquis on the used market and be set for life - really!

BTW, the B&W's seem to create more of a real love/hate reaction than a lot of speakers. My opinion is that they definitely have their own type of sound (they definitely "color" the signal more than some speakers - again imho). You either love em or hate em! It is not surprising to me that the Classe/B&W combo did not work for some. To my ears, dark sounding electronics with strong in the bass speakers make for a bad combo - this is from personal experience. I have heard B&W's paired with Krell's and Mark Levinson's and they worked MUCH better together. Still not my type of sound though.
hth.

[Joey_V]

I own the Martin Logan Vantage. You have to realize that I didnt like any of the previous generation of Logan speakers - like the Ascent, Oddysey, Aeon. I thought they werent balanced and a bit too hot on the top end. However, ever since I demoed the two new ML speakers - the ML Summit and Vantage - I've been very impressed by the sound. When I decided to go all out on my 2 channel system (I'm also in medical school so this system is my stress reliever), I auditioned a lot of ~$5000 speakers and I easily decided to go with the Vantage.

If you're a planar guy, like me, it's hard to go back to conventional box speakers.

[Chris D]

Nice, Joey, that's really good to hear. How are you driving them--Parasound amps, or others?

[Peter Nielsen]

If you're a planar guy, like me, it's hard to go back to conventional box speakers.

:agree: Joey, did you by any chance audition Maggies?

Peter