XLR Interconnect - Mic or AES/EBU?

[wildfire99]

I recently picked up a set (used) of A21 and A51 amps. They sound great!

I want to move away from RCA interconnects and use XLR's. However, I'm not understanding the difference between AES/EBU patch cables and mic cables. I use XLR's at work a lot, and I generally grab whatever has the appropriate ends (usually a longish mic cable). Is there a difference between Mic cables and AES/EBU rated cable, given the same connector ends (XLR M->F)? Am I just paying more for 'higher quality' cable with the AES/EBU rating (since that should be digital or something, right)?

Any suggestions on cheapish cable (~$25 each)?

[misterdoggy]

I think the difference is that XLR are "analog" cables with 75ohm and AES are "digital" cables with 110 ohm.

Cheap will be the place in the "chain" where you will have "degradation".

[Lex]

AES/EBU is for a fact, 110 ohm rated. Typically xlr for audio is 50-75 ohm. The other thing that matters for standard XLR is whether the components are true balanced being connected. IF they are not, some of the real benefit of XLR is lost. The internal structure of wiring for the 110 ohm is very different, so you truly need that for AES/EBU.

Doug
CATCables.com

[tboooe]

so is it ok to plug in a regular xlr cable into a AES/EBU connection? I believe my Cary cdp has this type (AES/EBU) of connection while my preamp is just "regular" xlr. Is there any harm done by doing this?

[Peter Nielsen]

so is it ok to plug in a regular xlr cable into a AES/EBU connection? I believe my Cary cdp has this type (AES/EBU) of connection while my preamp is just "regular" xlr. Is there any harm done by doing this?

XLR is a connector type (also known as Cannon connector).
AES/EBU is a SIGNAL specification. An AES/EBU output should be plugged into an AES/EBU input.

A "regular XLR" is usually a standard analogue balanced input or output. AES/EBU is digital information (compare this to the RCA or optical S/PDIF connector on digital equipment). You can't plug a digital output into an analog input or vice versa.

The general audio vs. vide cable analogy applies when comparing audio XLR cables and digital XLR cables (AES/EBU): Like you should never use an audio RCA for video or for S/PDIF (which requires 75 ohms), you should never use an audio XLR for the AES/EBU signal which requires 110 ohms...

Peter

[Lex]

tboooe, no, as Peter so completely and totally explained. AES/EBU is to be compared neither to 50 ohm audio, or 75 ohm video/digital. It's a unique digital transmission with it's own set of specification requirements. XLR connections, 110 ohm cable. to use anything different will create an impedence mis-match and sacrifice signal quality/frequencies.

Lex

[tboooe]

thanks guys...so is it even physically possible to connect an xlr cable into a AES/EBU input/output or are the connections totally different? I would have sworn that my Cary 303/300 has an output that is labeled AES/EBU and excepts an XLR interconnect and that I connected my xlr cable to this. maybe I am hallucinating. I cant verify this since I am not home but I know for sure that I have seen AES/EBU somewhere in my system either on my cdp, preamp, or amp.

[misterdoggy]

tboooe
XLR and AES/EBU use the same plug.

They are not the same
AES/EBU digital 110ohm and XLR analog 75 ohm

But if you used a digital cable by mistake instead of an Analog, Either in the RCA or XLR realms, they would still work, but it would not be "optimal". After all in the end they are just conduction signals.

If you have AES/EBU you would be better off obviously with a "good quality" AES/EBU digital cable to profit from higher end equipment which are usually the types of equipment offering this option.

Our sponsor Lex is probably the best one to steer you to what is the best cable at the best prices.

Just to confuse you more, I have a transport with a AES/EBU out and it goes into a DAC with a RCA input. So I've had special cables made that are digital, in and out of my DAC, and both sides are AES/EBU to RCA then RCA to XLR analog. While not optimum, I am using a goldmund DAC and it only accepts RCA.

[Peter Nielsen]

thanks guys...so is it even physically possible to connect an xlr cable into a AES/EBU input/output or are the connections totally different?

The CONNECTORS are identical. Physically it is possible to do the connection, but it doesn't work.

FWIW, I recall seeing XLR-style connectors used for the power supply connector in some pro-video gear too.

If you go to Europe (except the UK), you will notice that the standard speaker banana plugs fit perfectly into the household mains outlet. Dare to try powering your 8 ohm speaker with 230V/50Hz *? Just because the connectors match it doesn't mean it will work. :B

Peter

*) Don't try this unless your 8 ohm speaker can handle a continuous sine wave of 6600 watts RMS @ 50Hz :rofl:

[misterdoggy]

Peter,

I was only saying that you could use a digital cable for analog or vice versa and it would work. Doesn't mean after putting together thousands of dollars of equipment we should ignore what cable "to" use.

If I was in siberia and couldn't hook up my stereo, because, I only had digital rca/rca cables, I wouldn't be shy and use the cable.

[Peter Nielsen]

Bruce,

I was merely replying to tboooe's question to whether it is possible to blindly connect XLR to XLR. I did not refer to anything in your email :T

Peter

[r100gs]

tboooe
XLR and AES/EBU use the same plug.

They are not the same
AES/EBU digital 110ohm and XLR analog 75 ohm

But if you used a digital cable by mistake instead of an Analog, Either in the RCA or XLR realms, they would still work, but it would not be "optimal". After all in the end they are just conduction signals.

If you have AES/EBU you would be better off obviously with a "good quality" AES/EBU digital cable to profit from higher end equipment which are usually the types of equipment offering this option.

Our sponsor Lex is probably the best one to steer you to what is the best cable at the best prices.

Just to confuse you more, I have a transport with a AES/EBU out and it goes into a DAC with a RCA input. So I've had special cables made that are digital, in and out of my DAC, and both sides are AES/EBU to RCA then RCA to XLR analog. While not optimum, I am using a goldmund DAC and it only accepts RCA.

XLR audio cables are 110 ohms. If you use a RCA adaptor on a XLR you have lost all the benefits of having a XLR. A RCA cable uses the the outer shielding as a wire. That's the beauty of a XLR. It has three wires instead of two. Two wires are used for the positive and negative and the third outer wire is used for RF shielding.

[wildfire99]

I think the difference is that XLR are "analog" cables with 75ohm and AES are "digital" cables with 110 ohm.

Cheap will be the place in the "chain" where you will have "degradation".

I see. That's too bad really, as it's easy to find AES cable in short lengths.

Without getting into a cable argument, part of my thought is that a lot of recording places don't use hyper-gold-super-brand-mega-cable, so it seems odd to use $100/ea. interconnects to play back a disc mastered with $20 interconnects, cable differences aside.

Since I think cable vendor talk is bad form here as we have a cable sponsor, I'll leave the question about where to go for them alone. Thanks for the clearification everyone, about the difference between AES/EBU and regular XLR. For the record, my source is an Anthem AVM30, which supposedly is really balanced on the output.

[misterdoggy]

XLR audio cables are 110 ohms. If you use a RCA adaptor on a XLR you have lost all the benefits of having a XLR. A RCA cable uses the the outer shielding as a wire. That's the beauty of a XLR. It has three wires instead of two. Two wires are used for the positive and negative and the third outer wire is used for RF shielding.

r100gs,
I know this, but didn't have choice. I mean if I could have a "better" DAC that takes RCA, rather than a "lesser" DAC that takes AEU, I would go with the better DAC. I don't think the difference between the 2 would be "audible", it would only fall in the domain of better grounding and maybe insulation. correct me if I am wrong here please.

Bruce,

I was merely replying to tboooe's question to whether it is possible to blindly connect XLR to XLR. I did not refer to anything in your email

Peter

No prob Peter, You're the man !! If you said it was sunny and warm in the Antartic I would accept that :T

I was just saying it "could work" but that would be throwing all the HT technology out the window.

Without getting into a cable argument, part of my thought is that a lot of recording places don't use hyper-gold-super-brand-mega-cable, so it seems odd to use $100/ea. interconnects to play back a disc mastered with $20 interconnects, cable differences aside.

We've had the "cable" discussion or battle already. I know for a fact that Abbey Road Recording Studios and B&W listening rooms use Top quality cables. Just as a reference, I keep 15% of my investment in HF/HT in Cables.

Speak to Lex and he can recommend something for you.

[Peter Nielsen]

Without getting into a cable argument, part of my thought is that a lot of recording places don't use hyper-gold-super-brand-mega-cable, so it seems odd to use $100/ea. interconnects to play back a disc mastered with $20 interconnects, cable differences aside.

Usually there is a BIG difference in build quality when you compare a $20 "el cheapo" cable to a $100-$200 cable. Sometimes the differences are extreme, like the $20 cable may sustain damage if you accidentally step on it, which renders it worthless in professional environments.

Personally, I have my doubts when it comes to the "super expensive" interconnects. Will a pair of $5,000 12' speaker cables sound better than a pair of $500 cables of the same length? I really doubt that there is an audible difference...

Peter

[Lex]

If he wants to use a 20.00 cable, go for it. But goodluck finding 20.00 110 ohm cables for AES/EBU digital. R100GS, you did make one incorrect statement. That XLR audio cables are 110 ohm. That is not true, only AES/EBU digital cable is 110 ohm. Yes, the XLR connector services both types.

I cannot verify that XLR audio is 75 ohm for audio. My head tells me no, this is not true because if I use silver braid wire and XLR connectors, what I have created is not a 75 ohm cable, but it works flawlessly in XLR connections. It is true that typically for noise rejection, a coax type cable is used by pro audio for XLR connections. But the true audio long distance benefit of why XLR cables connections are used in commercial applications, truly has little to do with the wire being used, it's more how the signal is sent and decoded, allowing noise prone transmissions to be rejected and replaced by the clean signal side in a balanced configuration. I'll save the technical explanation for someone more into technical side of how this works. If necessary, I can probably find a good explanation of it though-

[Peter Nielsen]

I cannot verify that XLR audio is 75 ohm for audio.

AFAIK, most professional gear uses a 50 ohm XLR output impedance and high (usually 25-50 kOhm) input impedance. I think the same goes for XLR as for RCA audio cables: There is no standard or guaranteed impedance.

You're absolutely right that standard audio XLR usually is not 110 ohm. If it happens to be this with one cable manufacturer, it would be merely because they streamlined their manufacturing and used the same 110 ohm cable for both audio and digital...

Peter

[misterdoggy]

But the true audio long distance benefit of why XLR cables connections are used in commercial applications, truly has little to do with the wire being used, it's more how the signal is sent and decoded, allowing noise prone transmissions to be rejected and replaced by the clean signal side in a balanced configuration.

Lex,
This is an important point you made, that with "long length" cables are more "susceptible" to signal interference and loss. Therefore the XLR or AES is less susceptible.

I am using cables that go RCA/XLR and RCA/AEU, but the length is 0.6m so the distance is so short that I'm not really losing any signal, interference has not been a problem either as I try to ONLY use top quality cabling. Good Cables can = no degradation. :T

[r100gs]

If he wants to use a 20.00 cable, go for it. But goodluck finding 20.00 110 ohm cables for AES/EBU digital. R100GS, you did make one incorrect statement. That XLR audio cables are 110 ohm. That is not true, only AES/EBU digital cable is 110 ohm. Yes, the XLR connector services both types.

I cannot verify that XLR audio is 75 ohm for audio. My head tells me no, this is not true because if I use silver braid wire and XLR connectors, what I have created is not a 75 ohm cable, but it works flawlessly in XLR connections. It is true that typically for noise rejection, a coax type cable is used by pro audio for XLR connections. But the true audio long distance benefit of why XLR cables connections are used in commercial applications, truly has little to do with the wire being used, it's more how the signal is sent and decoded, allowing noise prone transmissions to be rejected and replaced by the clean signal side in a balanced configuration. I'll save the technical explanation for someone more into technical side of how this works. If necessary, I can probably find a good explanation of it though-

Lex, My XLR audio cables are listed at 110 ohms. I will not get into brand names. They are not sold as a digital cable transport. Maybe XLR and ABS/EBU deal has even confused manufacturers. I've noticed that very few cable guys list the nominal ohms of their XLR's.

[misterdoggy]

I've noticed that very few cable guys list the nominal ohms of their XLR's.

A knowledgeable buyer is the only thing we can count on. I wouldn't buy a cable without knowing what its qualities were/weren't.

But then again, thats why we have this forum. To share and learn. ;h