Decisions......decisions

[DrJRapp]

Well we all knew it had to come down to a decision point sooner or later. And here I sit trying to decide which amp goes up on Audiogon. Here is my analysis in my room with my speakers and my processor and my cd player. Understand that you may have different results with your system.

Cosmetics and build quality: The exterior casework on the Halo is definitely superior until one gets to the back panel where the A21 is a bit of a letdown in the utter cheapness of the speaker connectors switches and knobs. Under the hood is about equal in terms of wiring cleanliness and routing. I’m not qualified to comment on the quality of components; I just wouldn’t know the difference between one Chinese resistor and another. My Conclusion: advantage Halo.

Listening: I just about listened to my entire CD collection during this past week. I’ve been favorably impressed with the A21 for it’s warmth and huge sound stage. At the same time that huge sound stage tended to make some of my program material lack intimacy. The real test came with some classical piano music. We have a high quality baby grand piano sitting within sight of the audio equipment, and therefore operating in the same acoustical environment. The Rotel repeatedly and consistently sounded more like the real piano in terms of clarity and timbre and resolution. The same passages when played over the A21 sounded more like a recording, they just lacked a certain something that made the music ...well musical. The A21 sounded really great on most material and so-so on a small bit, where the Rotel was more consistent. My Conclusion: advantage Rotel.

Bang for the Buck: the value part of the equation is always a factor. There are two factors here, original cost and resale value. A21 MSRP $1995 typical cost new $1600, typical used cost $1200. RB 1080 MSRP $995 typical cost new $850 typical used cost $700. My Conclusion: advantage Rotel.

There you have it folks. Both are definitely great amps and while the Halo represents a change in my system it is definitely not an upgrade over Rotel, so the RB 1080 is the keeper.

[RebelMan]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone in Club Halo/Parasound but it merits saying....

Welcome home Jerry!

[mitch57]

No offense taken here. I respect Jerry's opinions and as he and many others have pointed out the speakers and the rest of your components have a dramatic effect on how each of us perceives the sound of a particular amp. Not to mention room accoustics.

The difference between the Rotel RMB 1095 and the A51 were quite dramatic in my system. The A51 excelled in all areas over the Rotel. I would expect that Jerry would find the same issues with the A51 compared to the Rotel 1095 in his system as he did comparing the A21 and RB 1080. I'm sure there will be others here that will have the opportunity to make similar comparrisons.

There's no doubt about it. Rotel makes great sounding gear period! They have had some quality control issues of late but it appears they are working hard to rectify that.

Parasound also makes great sounding gear. I feel that Parasound has better build quality with the exception of the rear panel as Jerry has pointed out. However, I'm not so sure that the binding posts on the back of the Halo are that unusual even when considering higher end gear. From what I can tell from the pictures, the Krell line uses the same type of binding posts as the Halo line does. I've only seen the high quality binding posts that Rotel uses on Rotel and Classe` which is made in the same plant as Rotel from what I understand.

It might be interesting to see what type of binding posts the rest of the high end amp manufactures are using.

[mpeak]

Comparing isn't always an easy thing and can take much time and effort gettting the sounds down for each to make an honest evaluation with weighing in all angles and aspects for final conclusion. I like to look at the over-all picture to come to a real conclusion for myself rather than focus in on one particular thing. I have to commend you Jerry for your style of approach that I like to see and giving a window into both to your conclusion.

Even though I don't own the same Rotel amp as yours, my conclusions were simular to yours, although my Rotel setup does produce a very large soundstage (could be the RB-1090 and RC-1090 combo), if in the recording, and a moving, musical, involving, in a very realistic way to these ears, and with the Klipsch RF-7's this can be a very moving experience that is hard to translate to someone that haven't heard.

One important thing for many to remember is that both Parasound and Rotel make very fine products for the money and both have their share of good reviews, it more balls down to preference of sound you like best. I honestly don't see why some people have to try and put one before the other because it's more a personal preference to sound. You listen and pick what sound best to your ears. I think you did a great job, Jerry, in helping people here understand it's more a personal choice to the sound of each, as to what one might think is best to all.

mitch57 also makes a very good point about different setups, rooms, speakers, and such, that can give us each different results!


Thanks for taking the time and sharing Jerry.

[DrJRapp]

I hope this doesn't offend anyone in Club Halo/Parasound but it merits saying....

Welcome home Jerry!

Don't jump to conclusions James. I am exploring other brands that may truely turn out to be an upgrade.

[Peter Nielsen]

The exterior casework on the Halo is definitely superior until one gets to the back panel where the A21 is a bit of a letdown in the utter cheapness of the speaker connectors switches and knobs.

The JC-1 also often gets negative comments about the speaker terminals. They may look cheap, but apparently they are not.

Here's what Bob Crump has to say about the Halo speaker connectors:

"The Superior Electric aren't cheesey or cheap, but are the originals that everyone copied and they continue to beat up things like Cardas, WBT, Vampire, Edison Price and others.....Lots of copies out there made in Taiwan or elsewhere, but they do not sound or perform the same....If you do a search for Superior Electric in the Tweaker's Asylum you will find lots of information on these or go to Superior's site...."

Superior Electric binding posts

Peter

[RebelMan]

Don't jump to conclusions James. I am exploring other brands that may truely turn out to be an upgrade.

Sorry Jerry, I wasn't formulating any conclusions. I certainly don't envy your position. As you discovered in your evaluation of the A21 you are going to have your work cut out for you finding that upgrade.

[mitch57]

I forget... What type of binding posts do they use on the Rotels? Don't some of the amps use different binding posts then the ones they use on the RMB-1095?

[DrJRapp]

I forget... What type of binding posts do they use on the Rotels? Don't some of the amps use different binding posts then the ones they use on the RMB-1095?

Both the RB 1080 and the RMB 1075 use clear 5 way binding posts that allow you to view their golden guts. Quite nice looking.

[Peter Nielsen]

I am exploring other brands that may truely turn out to be an upgrade.

That makes it easy. A Krell 300cx it is! :B :T However, you can probably get a pair of JC-1s for less...

Peter

[DrJRapp]

That makes it easy. A Krell 300cx it is! :B :T However, you can probably get a pair of JC-1s for less...

Peter

Yes, but do the JC 1s have any better clarity than the A21? I don't need the power, but I do need the articulation.

[Peter Nielsen]

Yes, but do the JC 1s have any better clarity than the A21? I don't need the power, but I do need the articulation.

Yes. The JC-1s have the clarity at all sound levels. Also, they don't have the over articulated midrange. They are totally different from the A21. See these reviews:

Enjoy The Music
Positive Feedback
Stereophile

Personally. I liked them so much that I got 9 of them. (Two pairs for the bi-amped front speakers).

Hmm, but then again, if you don't need the power, you might find something better. Have you considered a tube amp?! (I'd love that, but my Maggies are so power hungry that I must forget all deams about tubes :B )

Peter

[RebelMan]

That makes it easy. ...you can probably get a pair of JC-1s for less...

Peter

Nice try Peter but I think he moved on.

[Peter Nielsen]

Nice try Peter but I think he moved on.

I hear that you're obviously not at all familiar with the JC-1.

The JC-1 is nothing like the A21/A51 (except for the chassis design). Upgrading to the JC-1s is definitely to "move on".

Remember that CTC builders designed the JC-1. They did not design any of the other Parasound amps.

The JC-1 is a completely different beast.

That said, if I had $112,500 to burn on amps, I might want to try to move on to Classé Omegas... :B

Peter

[mpeak]

Just keep in mind, the Parasound JC-1 has a very long break-in period, much like the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extreme break-in period. You really have to keep reminding yourself to have patience with these two amps as they can really make you feel at times that they are never going to break-in. It was a hard and stressful road for myself almost giving up but they do finally break in, if you don't pull all your hair out first!

[NMyTree]

I've never heard the JC-1. But the Odyssey Mono Extremes are wonderful amps. Amps that will soon be in my system.

[mitch57]

Both the RB 1080 and the RMB 1075 use clear 5 way binding posts that allow you to view their golden guts. Quite nice looking.

Yes, I know. I just changed from a Rotel RMB-1095 to the Halo A51. But I would like to know what the brand name is of the binding posts used on the Rotels?

[mpeak]

Yes, the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes are very nice, much talked about over the internet with very high ratings from users that are very satisfied with them. I've heard and read that the Wharfedale Opus (your speaker) team up very well with Odyssey. Klaus is a good guy to deal with, and always there for you with 25 year warranty. He's a very hard worker, often works very long hours. The binding post on the Odyssey's are first rate, as is the product as a whole, and buying direct removes the high retail price.

The binding post on your Wharfedale Opus 2 are the same binding post that Rotel uses on the RB-1080 and RB-1090. I cannot remember the brand name but they are very simular to this (just without the crimping notch) at:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=093-556

[DrJRapp]

Yes. The JC-1s have the clarity at all sound levels. Also, they don't have the over articulated midrange. They are totally different from the A21.

Personally. I liked them so much that I got 9 of them. (Two pairs for the bi-amped front speakers).

Hmm, but then again, if you don't need the power, you might find something better. Have you considered a tube amp?! (I'd love that, but my Maggies are so power hungry that I must forget all deams about tubes :B )

Peter

There is something one needs to consider about both 7 channels of JC1s and 7 channels of tube amps say at 100wpc. That consideration is I live in South Florida and don't need room heaters.

I think my next explorations are going to be with the newer design digital amps.

[NMyTree]

Yes, the Odyssey Stratos Mono Extremes are very nice, much talked about over the internet with very high ratings from users that are very satisfied with them. I've heard and read that the Wharfedale Opus (your speaker) team up very well with Odyssey. Klaus is a good guy to deal with, and always there for you with 25 year warranty. He's a very hard worker, often works very long hours. The binding post on the Odyssey's are first rate, as is the product as a whole, and buying direct removes the high retail price.

The binding post on your Wharfedale Opus 2 are the same binding post that Rotel uses on the RB-1080 and RB-1090. I cannot remember the brand name but they are very simular to this (just without the crimping notch) at:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=093-556

Yes, Klaus is a great guy and he makes wonderful, high quality components and speakers. The Mono Extremes indeed matchup very well with the Wharfedale Opus 2. This matchup yields plenty of rich detail, wonderful timbre/tonality, emotion, smoothness and quite a pleasant listening experience that inspires houtrs on end of listening. Odyssey Audio's gear really does have a certain magical element in it's presentation.

I've said it before.....and I'll say it again, the Wharfedale Opus series is one of the most under-rated speakers lines out there. For anyone who has played a vintage Gibson or Fender guitar, that just oozes that warm, wood tonality with every pick of a note. That sweet tone. That is the richness and warmth I find in the matchup of Opus 2 and Mono Extremes. You can hear the beauty of the wood ...of an instrument. Of course a suitable source is required, just like any other systwm out there.

I've listened to a lot of different equipment in auditons and at friends homes. Much of that equipment extremely high-priced. I've had quite a few pieces of gear in and out of my system. None captivate me as this matchup has done.

[bhuskins]

I think my next explorations are going to be with the newer design digital amps.

My vote goes for the Halcro MCA20...the best digital amp I've heard.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Peter Nielsen]

My vote goes for the Halcro MCA20...the best digital amp I've heard.

Brent,

How do the Halcros compare to the JC-1?

Peter

[mpeak]

Wharfedale's are well known in the UK, and very much liked there. Here in the US, not many know about them but they have been doing better getting them to the US now-a-days, so that could change once people get to know them. The craffmanship that goes into the Opus line is very impressive, beautiful wood finish and the piano gloss finish is a must have. In the UK, some prefer them over B&W, and that's just who Wharfedale competes with.

[DrJRapp]

My vote goes for the Halcro MCA20...the best digital amp I've heard.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

I should get to hear the Halcro's soon. My favorite dealer is redoing their theater demo and putting in the Halcro setup to power Paradigm Signature Premiers.

[bhuskins]

Brent,

How do the Halcros compare to the JC-1?

Peter

That's a hard call...

I'll do some comparison and let you know. I haven't directly A/B'd them yet.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[RebelMan]

I hear that you're obviously not at all familiar with the JC-1.

This would be the wrong assumption.

...try to move on to Classé...

This would be the right one.

[DrJRapp]

OBTW, anyone interested in a used A21?

[Peter Nielsen]

This would be the wrong assumption.

Are you saying that you auditioned the JC-1 and didn't like it?

Peter

[RebelMan]

Are you saying that you auditioned the JC-1 and didn't like it?

I think you are saying that. 8)

[Peter Nielsen]

I think you are saying that. 8)

That is the natural assumption since you obviously don't regard transferring from A21 to JC-1 an improvement.

Oh, just to make things clear; when I say that moving on to Classé is an improvement, I'm not talking about the whimpy Classé M400 or other Delta series amps. I would NEVER trade my JC-1s for the M400. I'm referring to the Classé Omegas solely. However, the Omegas are too powerful for my MG20.1s anyway, so "moving on" to Omegas would be nothing but a total waste of money...

I'm very happy with my nine JC-1s, and I will probably keep them for the next 20 years. My only complaints about the JC-1s would be the space requirements and heat output. (Only a digital amp would solve these problems anyway).

Peter

[RebelMan]

That is the natural assumption since you obviously don't regard transferring from A21 to JC-1 an improvement.

Again more assumptions. Where did I state that the JC-1 was not an improvement? I stated that "I think he moved on." Nothing in this statement say's the JC-1 is not an improvement. If Jerry was that interested in the JC-1s, don't you think he would have taken a closer look at them? I do. Perhaps if he is unable to find what he is looking for in another brand he will. For now, it would appear (if you have been following along, which OBVIOUSLY you have not) that he has moved on. Perhaps you feel some insecurities with your purchasing decisions? LOL :lol:

Oh, just to make things clear; when I say that moving on to Classé is an improvement, I'm not talking about the whimpy Classé M400 or other Delta series amps. I would NEVER trade my JC-1s for the M400. I'm referring to the Classé Omegas solely.

I knew what you meant. Though I disagree with your "whippy" description of the Delta series. Power alone does not make a great sounding* amplifier. *(I believe this is what Jerry is really after - a higher quality product with greater musicality.)

I'm very happy with my nine JC-1s, and I will probably keep them for the next 20 years.

The JC-1s are a fine product and you should be happy with them.

[Peter Nielsen]

I stated that "I think he moved on."

Exactly! In my opinion moving from a stereo amp to a mono block is defintely moving on. You seem to think that moving on implies changing brand - my logical assumption since you bashed me for suggesting a move to the Parasound mono blocks.

BTW, you can get amazing deals at Audiogon. An used pair of JC-1s for as low as $3400 is truely a bargain! (Remember, they now MSRP at $7000/pair!)

If you don't like them, you can probably sell them for about the same price, or more, if you're lucky!

Peter

[RebelMan]

Peter, I think you are overreacting just a little. I didn't bash you at all. My implication, and you are correct about this (afterall, it was he that stated this first), was that other brands were under consideration. Each having their own tiers of performance. To compare apples to apples. Your suggestions, while valid, were irrelevant as they would be considered as oranges in the given analogy.

[Peter Nielsen]

Hmm... Indeed. In my original comment I was suggesting a Krell stereo amp, but at the same time I pointed out that the Parasound monos are less expensive than the Krell stereo... :B Yeah, I guess it all got a bit confusing... 8)

I really admire Krell amps, but I cannot justify the cost . IMHO Rotel, Parasound AND Classe offer more for the dollar compared to Krell...

Peter

[Indytown]

That is the natural assumption since you obviously don't regard transferring from A21 to JC-1 an improvement.

Oh, just to make things clear; when I say that moving on to Classé is an improvement, I'm not talking about the whimpy Classé M400 or other Delta series amps. I would NEVER trade my JC-1s for the M400. I'm referring to the Classé Omegas solely. However, the Omegas are too powerful for my MG20.1s anyway, so "moving on" to Omegas would be nothing but a total waste of money...

I'm very happy with my nine JC-1s, and I will probably keep them for the next 20 years. My only complaints about the JC-1s would be the space requirements and heat output. (Only a digital amp would solve these problems anyway).

Peter

Peter,

If you could be so kind, could you explain how the Classe CAM400 mono's are whimpy when I auditioed them they sounded more dynamic than the JC1. The soundfield was larger and played off the sides and plane of the speaker by 3 to 4 feet compared to the JC1

Not to say I didn't like the JC1 they presented the soundfield differently.

Seems the price differenial is narrowing also $7K for JC1, $10k for CAM400.

Is the JC1 a truly balanced design as the 400?

I believe the JC1 plays up 25 watts class A in High bias.

The CAM400 play 120 watts in class A before switching; not too whimpy.

I do like the industrial look of the JC1. They do get hot, very hot.



Indy

[DrJRapp]

Guy's I'm not particpating much, I'm out of town because of two funerals. I don't get too much internet time. I did consider the JC1s first, but space and heat and cost are really prohibative. Thinking of Rotel 1077 or Belcanto Evo or Nuforce 8s at the moment.

[Peter Nielsen]

The CAM400 play 120 watts in class A before switching; not too whimpy.

This can't be right. 120W in Class A in a small chassis like that would require extremely high speed fans to keep it cooled down. AFAIK, the CAM400 is fan-less, and it does 12 watts in Class A, or something like that...

Peter

[bhuskins]

I think you're right Peter...

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Indytown]

This can't be right. 120W in Class A in a small chassis like that would require extremely high speed fans to keep it cooled down. AFAIK, the CAM400 is fan-less, and it does 12 watts in Class A, or something like that...

Peter

I was doing my comparisons on class A operation on various amps and could not find the numbers on the Classe web site. I eventually did find them under the CAM 400 wording. It is not a bullit point; you have to read the paragraphs.

I decided to call Classe direct in Canada, and one of their tech's explained it that the old CAM 350 or 400 only put out 10% in class A mode as new series puts out 33% in class mode.

400 watts at 33% = 132 watts class A operation

I think this is a considerable jump in performance to say the least.

Why would you need fans if the circuitry is designed to compensate only when you are driving at high levels??

Indy

[Indytown]

I was doing my comparisons on class A operation on various amps and could not find the numbers on the Classe web site. I eventually did find them under the CAM 400 wording. It is not a bullit point; you have to read the paragraphs.

I decided to call Classe direct in Canada, and one of their tech's explained it that the old CAM 350 or 400 only put out 10% in class A mode as new series puts out 33% in class mode.

400 watts at 33% = 132 watts class A operation

I think this is a considerable jump in performance to say the least.

Why would you need fans if the circuitry is designed to compensate only when you are driving at high levels??

Indy

the wording for the class A operation is in the amplifier section explaining the new Delta series amps. This is the third time I posting this response its not attaching.

[Indytown]

the wording for the class A operation is in the amplifier section explaining the new Delta series amps. This is the third time I posting this response its not attaching.

CA-M400
While circuit topologies and most signal path parts are identical across the Delta series amplifier range, the CA-M400 monaural amplifier applies those modules in a more advanced configuration. The 400W monaural amplifier is built using two of the 200W channels in balanced mode. The result is a fully balanced amplifier design, more closely resembling Classé’s reference Omega series amplifiers. ;x( The CA-M400, at the top of the Delta series range, represents a remarkable achievement in amplifier performance and value.

Class A
For Classé amplifiers, output stage DC bias is set to idle at a relatively low level to minimize heat. As the output increases under load, the bias increases, remaining at about 1/3 of the total output power. So for example, a Classé amplifier delivering 100W into an 8Ω load will be operating at about 30W Class A, :T eliminating any effect of switching distortion normally associated with a Class A/B design.

Balanced and Single-Ended
All Classé amplifiers provide for both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs. The LEDs on the front panel tell not only the number of channels, but also their mode of operation. Unlike other designs, Classé amplifiers allow both single-ended and balanced connections to be made simultaneously. For example, the user may choose to connect balanced inputs for the left and right channels of a high-end preamp, while the single-ended connections for these channels are connected to a surround processor. The different inputs can then be selected from the front panel, or by RS-232 via PC or an external control system.

[hamtor]

http://stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/304/

[bhuskins]

400 watts at 33% = 132 watts class A operation

Sounds more theoretical vs. actual...

The idea that this would create a straight linear curve all the way out to the amp's maximum output is very unlikely. Don't get me wrong, I really like Classe, but the only way to properly state real Class A output is by saying exactly what the Class A output is. Any other deductive calculation is speculation and lends itself to A/V snake oil (no offense to any Classe Owners.) Sounds like something a car audio amp company would say.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

[Indytown]

Sounds more theoretical vs. actual...

The idea that this would create a straight linear curve all the way out to the amp's maximum output is very unlikely. Don't get me wrong, I really like Classe, but the only way to properly state real Class A output is by saying exactly what the Class A output is. Any other deductive calculation is speculation and lends itself to A/V snake oil (no offense to any Classe Owners.) Sounds like something a car audio amp company would say.

Brent Huskins
Media Design
HTGuide Sponsor

Brent,

I think your reading too much into it. Classe has set the transistors to run in class A operation for 33% of the total wattage depending on the amp you buy, taking into consideration heat management. So at low volumes the amp is cool, really cool. Its not either 10watts low bias or 25 watts high bias.

Who cares how they do it, they do it.

Some of the Krell amps do the same thing.

It would be interesting to measure some amps that claim they run say up to 25 watts class A; they might run lower or higher.

Best way to get this issue resolved is call Classe in Canada and ask them, then report back your findings. I feel comfortable in the way they explained it to me. Ask for a technician.

Indy

[NMyTree]

The other day while I was packing up my Odyssey Nightingales, in preperation for next weeks move; I hooked up my Quad 22L speakers to the gear. Everything exactly the same, I only switched the speakers out( Minimax CD Player, Odyssey Audio Tempest Extreme, Parasound Halo A21, Groneberg Quattro Reference interconnects, Cobalt Ultimate Speaker cables)

Interesting development.

While the Quad 22L's bass more prominent, fuller and much deeper, it lacked that sweet tunefullness of the Odyssey Nightingales. The bass is a bit more clinical with the Quads.

I also noticed that the Lower mids/upper bass of the Nightingales is actually more rich and detailed, as well as being more tuneful. It's hard to describe, but there's a certain soulfullness that just makes you want to tap your toes and boogie around with the Odyssey. The Halo A21 ( and the Tempest) really seem to have a certain synergy with the Odyssey Nightingales.

Overall the Nightingales are much more melodic and tuneful , than the Quad 22Ls, with this set up.

Interestingly, the Wharfedale Opus 2 had a very similar character as the Nightingales, but on a much larger, fuller ...more complete scale. Also very tuneful, sweet and soulful.