apartment woes

[sikoniko]

As many of you know, I recently upgraded my sub to an asw-850. I have to say that this is truely an amazing sub, but it really is too much for an apartment.

Most likely it will be at least 1.5 years before I get a house. Spent my downpayment and then some on this system. The wall that my entertainment stuff sits on is quite full and makes a small room feel even smaller. My fiance and I have been apartment hunting for when we get married and right now, it looks like even if we get a bigger place, this problem will still be there. The sub creates a lack of symmetry.

I have been trying to think of ways to make it work, and evaluate all alternatives. One option I have been contemplating is the possability of trading my 804's and the asw850 in for a pair of demo N802's. This would give symmetry on the A/V wall, and possibly giving the appearance of less clutter. Don't get me wrong, I love a good HT setup, but I also want a clean looking setup.

With the 850 being too much until I get a house, I was wondering if the 802 would offer enough low end without using a sub. 802s are great for music, but would it be overkill for an HT setting with only maybe 10% music?

My fiance hasn't told me I had to sell my sub, so don't think I have any pressure to do anything at this point, and I havent decided anything, I am just evaluating my options. What do you guys think?

[DrBoom]

I don't see how you can NOT make it symmetrical.
My front line from left to right:
Left speaker - equipment rack - TV - sub - Right speaker

Perfectly symmetrical (ok, the sub isn't as high as the equipment rack), and takes up a little less than 3m, which is really stretching my room since it's only 4m wide, and there's a door AND a window that need to be able to open to that wall.
Nevertheless, it's symmetrical, and it even makes my speakers form a perfect equilateral triangle with the listening position



Don't let the 802's fool you, those too need a larger room to get them going, not to mention ample power because they would have to handle the bass from all channels.
The don't reach as low as the ASW850, or even the 800, but you'll get an overall improvement in sound quality.
But since you're only using them for HT, maybe it's a bit overkill.
How about putting the sub on a side wall, or is that a no-go as well ?

[Mark_C.]

How about sell the 850 and then get a small sub, a Sunfire True Sub Jr. or a Velodyne HGS-10. Either of those would give you more than enough for an apartment. It's ridiculous to put Nautilus 802s in an apartment unless we're talking Manhattan penthouse. Plus with the 802s come amplification questions. Do you happen to have a 300 watt-per-channel amp lying around?

[DrBoom]

Do you happen to have a 300 watt-per-channel amp lying around?

I think he does (according to his profile) :B

Earthquake Cinenova Grande 5

Power rating per channel:
(8-ohm load), all channels driven: 300 watts.
(4-ohm load), all channels driven: 600 watts.
(2-ohm load), all channels driven: 1000 watts.

[jimmyp58]

He certainly does...you're correct DrBoom. I helped Dan get set up with his CineNova Grande 5!

Jim

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

When you say that he sub is too much for the apartment - do you mean too loud / too much bass OR too big?

If it is too loud - that is a calibration issue - and the sub can be set to blend in perfectly with the speakers at the same volume...

If you mean too big - have you considered other placement options - subs are very forgiving of placement - especially if you cross them at about 60 Hz - is side or rear placement an option? I have even seen a very successful arrangement where the sub was mounted higher up on a centre wall shelf at the front above the speakers and TV - - gave a very seamless blending in of the bass...

I too suspect you will find the 802s are larger than you think (the combined extra width would be close to the 8050) and need a fair bit of space to breathe... They are however great sounding speakers...
Your 804s:
> Width: 238mm (9.4 in) and Depth: 344mm (13.5 in)
The 802s
> Width: 385mm (15.2 in) and Depth: 548mm (21.6 in)
(and they need space to breathe!)

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Ya, like I said, that is one option. I am trying to evaluate all of them.

The sub is properly calibrated. That is not an issue. It is even turned down a little low. It is an amazing sub. I am hearing things in movies I'd never heard. The problem is that it is too good for me right now. is that an oxymoron? the sub goes so low, it shakes the entire apartment, and most likely everyone else in the buildings as well.

The issue I am having is creating space. I need to find something that I dont believe exists unless I custom make it, and Im not carpenter. The effect I want to creat is a clean look. the most recent example I can think of is a look at the soundstage greggz has created. While the front speakers take up space, I like that it there is openness, which creates the perception of space.

Problems:
1.the cinenova is not a standard size, or at least not the size of my other stereo pieces. therefore, it is difficult to find a shelf that will accomodate it.

2. I want to keep my equipment somewhat concealed. I like the sleeper concept. I realize my speakers are already big, but if I can conceal the electronics it would solve that issue.

3. the effect I want to create can't be done with a tv set. it would require a plasma/lcd or a projection screen, which are not feasable at this time.

4. due to cable length of my front three cables, the cinenova needs to be somewhat centered.

so the dilema is how to create this perception with what I have to work with now.

I don't have a camera I can take pictures with right now. My fiance has one, but she already feels that I spend too much focusing on "stuff" that she doesnt think I need to take pictures of my equipment. She does like the equipment, don't get me wrong. she does feel it is a bit much for the station I am in in life. She is probably right, but that isnt what I am talking to you guys for. heheeh.

I basically am looking for a "Plasma TV Stand" with 3 shelved areas (low but wide), which close by a glass door of some sort. I am not looking to spend a lot of money. I bought the target piece, but the two glass doors on the right and left side are too small for my receiver and stuff. So I had to buy one of the vertical towers to store my receiver, dvd player and panamax 5100. With the sub on the opposite side, it is creating an asymmetrical look and feel. I tried moving the sub to the right side, which is the only alternate location, and I could definately tell bass was coming from my right instead of from the picture.

[Aussie Geoff]

Skoniko,

I tried moving the sub to the right side, which is the only alternate location, and I could definately tell bass was coming from my right instead of from the picture.

What is your crossover set at? 80Hz is relatively non directional and 60 Hz is almost totally non directional??? I still reckon there is going to be a way that you can accomodate your sub - send us pictures of the room (wait until the fiance is asleep!!!

Geoff

[sikoniko]

crossover is set at 60hz.

[jlee]

sikoniko: If you wanted to upgrade speakers, going to the 803 will give you noticeable more bass impact over the 804 (as well as better midrange.. this is an upgrade I may be doing soon myself). Not sure how much more the 802 will give over the 803, but just by themselves would not have the same affect as a decent high quality subwoofer. My personal opinion at that point is that your system will not be balanced. I am a big believer in allocating a certain percentage range to each component (front speakers, center speakers, source, preamp, amp, subs, cables, etc.) so no 1 component is the weak link. If you got the 802's you'd have awesome fronts but your rears and preamp are not of the capability of the 802 and therefore not fully able to take advantage of just how good those 802's are. The rear speakers would not be up to par either. I would get SCM1's to match the N804 before going to 802's. As for subs, for $3000 list for the ASW850, another option is to get 2 REL Strata III's ($1500 US list each). You could place one in the front, and 1 in the rear if that helps your symmetry problem, or even 1 on each side. The REL subs would give up a bit of that impact but will sound a bit more musical and seamless, like they weren't even there until you turn them off. You mentioned you listen to 10% music only, but even for movies, if you like "higher fidelity" bass over the "excessive effect" then 2 of these over 1 850 might be something to consider. I started with 1, then went to 2, then 3, now I have 4 REL subs in my system .

[sikoniko]

I have no desire of upgrading my preamp at this time so that is not an option. I just got it a year ago (when I only had 604's) and it has to last another 4-5 years.

As far as spending goes, I have spent a lot of money in the last 12 months, and it will probably be six more months before I can realistically upgrade my surrounds to scm1's. I was thinking maybe I could trade in my speakers to the 802's with a minimum monetary impact and address the space issue. I realize the speakers are a bit bigger, but by finding a better solution for an equipment rack, as well as removing the sub, i thought it might make up for the difference. I agree though that it is probably more beneficial to upgrade my surrounds at this point before upgrading other current speakers. Im sure there is benefit to upgrading to 803's as well, but if I don't draw a line somewhere, I never will be getting a house.

The apartment I am in now, the equipment takes up 11 ft on the wall, but the new apartment only has 9'6" of wall space. My current room size is 12x11'6 and the new room is 14'6x14. everything is definately overwhelming currently. this new room would also benefit from a wall mounted speaker and will have wallspace on both the left and right side if I were to butt my couch up against the back wall. it is something I have not done since I have floor standers as rears currently, but I wish to maximze floor space, and that will help to accomplish that. The only wall on the side is actually a sliding glass door, so there will be no other location to put equipment other than the 9'6 wall.

What if I put the sub just to the left of the couch. I would have to hope noone mistook it for an endtable, but would that be too close to the listening position? this would face the sub away from the exterior wall, although its back would be against it. Would that help in minimizing impact on the neighbors? would it sound localized again? I heard before that bass below a certain Hz has to travel 30 ft before you can actually hear it, so this would bounce it off of the wall and send it back to me right at 30 ft, or close to it. im sure it would give vibration to the couch though. heh. This back wall is 11 ft ( i dont want my equipment on this side) so it would have the space for it after I got the wall mounted speakers.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

I can't help with the apartment volume issues - any really good subwoofer is going to produce deep enough bass to get you into some trouble there - but hey "life is short"...

I may be able to help with positioning the sub though - I seem to remember you still had a CRT TV. A friend built a great low cost mount for his TV and Centre which may work for you with the sub as well...

Buy some besser bricks / hollow concrete bricks (these are used for retaining walls etc and come in several colors - grey, cream etc). Pop down to you local hardware/ lumbar yard and buy some 1 1/2 or 2 inch cedar or oak etc planks (furniture grade) as wide as (the lager of) your TV, Sub and centre plus and allowance for the bricks. Make them nice and thick to avoid any vibration. You will need two or three to get the depth right for the sub. for example 2 x 12 inch oe 3 x 8 inch.

Now you build up side supports with the besser bricks (just stacked) to the right height and then slip the sub in and lay the planks across resting on the stacked bricks. Stack a couple of more courses of besser bricks and slip that center in, then the final set of planks and you put the TV on top.

Solid, cost effective, and easy to disassemble.... And it will get that HTM1 at a decent height for you as well as centering the sub...

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Thanks for your suggestion. Not sure the fiance would go for that though.

I have doing a lot of thinking about positioning of the sub. You guys think the sub would work ok against a rear left corner, seated beside the couch? There is just no way that the sub will fit comfortably on the front wall if it was not as geoff suggested.

If it will function, I could then buy the second tower to match the one side and would acheive symmetry.

In order for the sub to fit in that corner, I would have to upgrade my rears to scm1's, which she is fine with me doing when I get the money saved up.

That would solve the short term problem. I would still have every inch of space covered on that a/v wall, but at least there would be symmetry, which would make it a little easier on the eyes.

[greggz]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but are you trying to ask if you can store the ASW-850 at my house for 1.5 years until such time as you have a home?

I guess it would be alright. I assume I can trust you to come back and get it after 1.5 years. :rofl:

[jlee]

About the sub, I think it would probably sound localized if you put it beside your couch. The instructions for that model state to put it near one of the speakers or between then. I would think the best placements would be in the corner behind one of the speakers or right in the center (not always practical). The only way to tell is to try. Have you tried it beside your couch? If you don't have guests too often, it shouldn't be a problem about mistaking it for an endtable. I guess you could mention it to your guests if they are over for the first time .

[purplepeople]

I am also in a 500 sq ft apartment and my digs are even more crammed than DrBoom. I've had to be creative and compromising in my placements, although I am still within 10 deg of spec circular positioning. Before you start asking... it's due to absolute zero WAF.

Anyway, what are 602's sitting on? The cross is at 60Hz so that means the notes are very non-directional... is there room to put the sub back with (or under) the rears and set the timing to match the 602's?

ensen.

[sikoniko]

Forgive me if I am wrong, but are you trying to ask if you can store the ASW-850 at my house for 1.5 years until such time as you have a home?

I guess it would be alright. I assume I can trust you to come back and get it after 1.5 years. :rofl:

Well, I thought you would be able to keep it safe. It is just unfortunate that my fiance found a way to put it in the front, so I am afraid it won't be necessary.

I'm amazed that she is actually for me getting the SCM1's. she said go ahead and do it now, but I don't have any place to hang them until next march when we move, so that will give me sufficient time to save up.

I have been thinking about those 803's as well and it is awful tempting. If I get a reimbursement check from my student loan, I may go ahead and do it. heheh.

You guys are probably sick of me by now always being back and forth.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

That Fiancée of yours sounds like a woman who you wan't to keep...

It's great that you found a way to keep the ASW850 - it's a 10 year investment in subwoofer excellence....

I reckon the SCM1s first - that's what your fiancee wants after all

Geoff

[sikoniko]

nah, I was thinkin i'd sneak the 803's in. They look just like the 804's, only bigger. She's smarter than that, so she'll find out but im dumb enough to try,.