Driving 800 D3

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  • Dombert
    Junior Member
    • May 2017
    • 11

    Driving 800 D3

    What would be the perfect system to drive a pair of B&W 800 D3 speakers? The best combination tried so far was Jeff Rowland Corus + PSU / M725 S2 with Chord Sarum speaker cables. Detailing was excellent but the sound was slightly too bright for my taste (listening mostly to classical music & opera). Any recommendation would be welcome.
  • wkhanna
    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2006
    • 5673

    #2
    welcome to the forum, Dombet!

    please give some more details:

    - all current equipment

    -on you room

    - your budget

    - your personal preference in system sound characteristics

    -access to local brick & mortar audio shops


    regards
    _


    Bill

    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

    FinleyAudio

    Comment

    • Kal Rubinson
      Super Senior Member
      • Mar 2006
      • 2109

      #3
      Originally posted by Dombert
      The best combination tried so far was Jeff Rowland Corus + PSU / M725 S2 with Chord Sarum speaker cables.
      What else have you tried?
      Kal Rubinson
      _______________________________
      "Music in the Round"
      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

      Comment

      • Dombert
        Junior Member
        • May 2017
        • 11

        #4
        Originally posted by wkhanna
        welcome to the forum, Dombet!

        please give some more details:

        - all current equipment

        -on you room

        - your budget

        - your personal preference in system sound characteristics

        -access to local brick & mortar audio shops


        regards

        I have a Rowland Model 6 with Synergy Pre and a Linn Akkurate DS. I updated my speakers recently and soon noted my old Jeff Rowlands were overtaken by the 800 D3. These are good speakers, so neutral, they deliver exactly what you input in them. Definitely they need a good amplification.

        I have tried what was available at my store: I remember only a few, Luxman, Octave HP700/ MRE22, JR M 625S2 and finally the Model 725 S2 with Corus/PSU ($63,000 in Japan after discount) which was the only one I would consider if it was less bright. Really I prefer warmer sound.

        My room is la rectangle L11m x W5.5 m, the speakers being set one meter from the width of one of the wall and the ceiling is 2.7 m high.

        Comment

        • Alaric
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 4143

          #5
          I have heard some good results with Mark Levinson gear. It may also be worth your time to check out some high current valve gear. McIntosh has remarkably (IMO) black background, and makes valve amplifiers that will drive everything but a truck. I mention tubes because of your stated preference for a warmer sound and because I heard a pair of B&W Matrix 800 driven by bi amped MFA gear and it sounded very good.
          Lee

          Marantz PM7200-RIP
          Marantz PM-KI Pearl
          Schiit Modi 3
          Marantz CD5005
          Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

          Comment

          • wkhanna
            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
            • Jan 2006
            • 5673

            #6
            Lee & i NEVER disagree.....but....

            ...i have never heard anything Mac connected to anything B&W that satisfied my personal craving, which may be similar to yours.
            .....as i listen to classical ~ 30% & appreciate a warmer tonality along accurate imaging, staging & detail along with good transient reaction....
            & the ability to the interaction of the hall with the music (when it is on the recording to begin with.)

            my first suggestion would be Classé

            I spent most of my time at the January 2015 Consumer Electronics Show exploring amps and preamps for Stereophile's on-line coverage of the show, but there were a few items of interest to fans of multichannel.


            Last spring, when I was listening to Bowers & Wilkins's 802 D3 Diamond loudspeakers, Classé Audio offered a pair of their new Sigma Mono amps for the review. They claimed a synergy—B&W's D3 series had been developed using Classé amps. I declined, only because using unfamiliar amplifiers would add to my assessment an uncontrolled variable.
            _


            Bill

            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

            FinleyAudio

            Comment

            • Kal Rubinson
              Super Senior Member
              • Mar 2006
              • 2109

              #7
              My favorite amp was the Theta Dreadnaught D but I cannot lift/move it.
              Kal Rubinson
              _______________________________
              "Music in the Round"
              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

              Comment

              • Dombert
                Junior Member
                • May 2017
                • 11

                #8
                Thank you for answering my questions.

                I forgot to tell that I already listened to Classé and McIntosh last year when ordering my D3s. I did not really like these amplifiers. I found the first too bright and the second muddy. Finally I selected the speakers after listening to Jeff Rowland.

                I read a lot of good things regarding the Theta Dreadnaught D but it is Class D and Class D amplifiers don’t keep their value. My trusty 20 years old class A/B Jeff Rowlands can be resold at nearly ¼ of the original value, and the future buyer will be able to enjoy them for many years again. So I will never invest so much money in a class D.

                I have still to listen to Mark Levinson but while checking on Internet, I found excellent reviews of the Ayre KX-R Twenty/MX-R twenty. Anyone has experience with these components?

                Comment

                • TomScrut
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Nov 2013
                  • 532

                  #9
                  Are you sure it's not the speakers that aren't actually to your taste? Amplifiers are generally far more neutral than speakers (or should I say they deviate from neutrality a lot less than speakers). If I were you I would consider using Space Optimization on your ADS to take some of the top end off if that's what you want.

                  Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                  Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

                  Comment

                  • Alaric
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 4143

                    #10
                    Originally posted by wkhanna
                    Lee & i NEVER disagree.....but....

                    ...i have never heard anything Mac connected to anything B&W that satisfied my personal craving, which may be similar to yours.
                    .....as i listen to classical ~ 30% & appreciate a warmer tonality along accurate imaging, staging & detail along with good transient reaction....
                    & the ability to the interaction of the hall with the music (when it is on the recording to begin with.)

                    my first suggestion would be Classé

                    I spent most of my time at the January 2015 Consumer Electronics Show exploring amps and preamps for Stereophile's on-line coverage of the show, but there were a few items of interest to fans of multichannel.


                    https://www.stereophile.com/content/...iversal-player

                    McIntosh does have a "house sound". I believe Bill and I are in agreement there. I mentioned them mostly as a tube option that supplies current in great enough quantities to satisfy the big B&Ws, which can absorb power like a sponge.
                    Not inexpensive, but worth a listen, http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/350wattsamps
                    Lee

                    Marantz PM7200-RIP
                    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                    Schiit Modi 3
                    Marantz CD5005
                    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                    Comment

                    • Dombert
                      Junior Member
                      • May 2017
                      • 11

                      #11
                      Originally posted by TomScrut
                      Are you sure it's not the speakers that aren't actually to your taste? Amplifiers are generally far more neutral than speakers (or should I say they deviate from neutrality a lot less than speakers). If I were you I would consider using Space Optimization on your ADS to take some of the top end off if that's what you want.

                      Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                      Hi TomScrut,

                      Thank you but I am afraid I don’t understand what you mean by “… using Space Optimization on your ADS”

                      800 D3s are pristine, which makes them challenging to drive, period. Whatever you feed them, they will reproduce it. I liked the dynamism, the definition & the smoothness of the M 725 S2 that coupled with the warmth & the soundstaging of the Octave MRE 220 would make a perfect amplifier for this speaker.

                      The break-in took 800 hours and was just completed a few days ago. I learned in the process I need to upgrade my old amplification and this is what I am undertaking actually. A really good amplificarion is definitely needed with this speaker.

                      I should have a look also at the new D'Agostino Stereo 250, although this brand specifically, is quite expensive in Japan.

                      Comment

                      • Kal Rubinson
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Mar 2006
                        • 2109

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Dombert
                        The break-in took 800 hours and was just completed a few days ago.
                        How can you know this? Is there an LED indicator?
                        Kal Rubinson
                        _______________________________
                        "Music in the Round"
                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                        Comment

                        • TomScrut
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Nov 2013
                          • 532

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dombert
                          Hi TomScrut,

                          Thank you but I am afraid I don’t understand what you mean by “… using Space Optimization on your ADS”

                          800 D3s are pristine, which makes them challenging to drive, period. Whatever you feed them, they will reproduce it. I liked the dynamism, the definition & the smoothness of the M 725 S2 that coupled with the warmth & the soundstaging of the Octave MRE 220 would make a perfect amplifier for this speaker.

                          The break-in took 800 hours and was just completed a few days ago. I learned in the process I need to upgrade my old amplification and this is what I am undertaking actually. A really good amplificarion is definitely needed with this speaker.

                          I should have a look also at the new D'Agostino Stereo 250, although this brand specifically, is quite expensive in Japan.
                          Your Akurate DS has Space Optimization on it, which allows you to add a treble shelf if it sounds too bright.

                          You say the speakers are neutral yet everything you send to them is too bright? Amps tend to be more neutral than speakers given that amps reproduce signals to very fine tolerances compared to speakers. It just sounds to me that you don't like the tonal balance of your speakers even though you like their other qualities and you are trying to solve this issue with an amp.

                          Have you got them positioned correctly in your room?

                          FWIW I have Nord One Up MBs driving my 802D2s and they are relatively inexpensive, sound great, and have interchangeable op amps to tailor the sound to your liking.

                          Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                          Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

                          Comment

                          • Dombert
                            Junior Member
                            • May 2017
                            • 11

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                            How can you know this? Is there an LED indicator?
                            Out of the box, they were terrible. The sound improved drastically up to 500 hours, then more subtly after that. Since I reached 780-800 hours, they didn't show further improvement. During the break in, we were running them when out of the house because as my wife said: "we are going to hate music if we listen to that". Actually I have reached about 850 hours and they seem to have opened up so I can at least enjoy them although I think an amplification upgrade will be welcome as obviously the 800 D3s have a tremendous potential.

                            Comment

                            • Kal Rubinson
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Mar 2006
                              • 2109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Dombert
                              Out of the box, they were terrible. The sound improved drastically up to 500 hours, then more subtly after that. Since I reached 780-800 hours, they didn't show further improvement. During the break in, we were running them when out of the house because as my wife said: "we are going to hate music if we listen to that". Actually I have reached about 850 hours and they seem to have opened up so I can at least enjoy them although I think an amplification upgrade will be welcome as obviously the 800 D3s have a tremendous potential.
                              Impressive description. I have never experienced anything of that magnitude or duration.
                              Kal Rubinson
                              _______________________________
                              "Music in the Round"
                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                              Comment

                              • Dombert
                                Junior Member
                                • May 2017
                                • 11

                                #16
                                Originally posted by TomScrut
                                Your Akurate DS has Space Optimization on it, which allows you to add a treble shelf if it sounds too bright.

                                You say the speakers are neutral yet everything you send to them is too bright? Amps tend to be more neutral than speakers given that amps reproduce signals to very fine tolerances compared to speakers. It just sounds to me that you don't like the tonal balance of your speakers even though you like their other qualities and you are trying to solve this issue with an amp.

                                Have you got them positioned correctly in your room?

                                FWIW I have Nord One Up MBs driving my 802D2s and they are relatively inexpensive, sound great, and have interchangeable op amps to tailor the sound to your liking.

                                Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                                I understand, I didn't know. I am just using the Linn as it was set by the dealer and as he explained to me. I have to confess I never read manuals.

                                I have still never experienced other amps in my home yet. All my tests were done in show-rooms with speakers obviously less broken than mine. I was told the trend is for brighter sounds that I can attest if I compare my vintage Model 6 to the newer Rowland Model 725 S2. But I have the budget for a really decent amp, so I am confident I will find one of my liking sooner or later.

                                Comment

                                • TomScrut
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Nov 2013
                                  • 532

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Dombert
                                  I understand, I didn't know. I am just using the Linn as it was set by the dealer and as he explained to me. I have to confess I never read manuals.

                                  I have still never experienced other amps in my home yet. All my tests were done in show-rooms with speakers obviously less broken than mine. I was told the trend is for brighter sounds that I can attest if I compare my vintage Model 6 to the newer Rowland Model 725 S2. But I have the budget for a really decent amp, so I am confident I will find one of my liking sooner or later.
                                  I would recommend looking into that, not just because of the treble shelf but because it can work wonders in terms of room correction. Over on the Linn forum it converted a load of guys who thought DSP as sacrilege into believers that digital EQ can help a system in most cases. It's not the best form of room EQ but it's better than nothing.

                                  Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                                  Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

                                  Comment

                                  • ShadowZA
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 1098

                                    #18
                                    If it is any help, I am powering my 803 D3's and HTM1 D3 using a Krell Evolution 403e (purchased in 2010). I'm as satisfied as can be. Sadly, this amplifier is not manufactured anymore. If I had to replace my amp now, I would probably love to give the D'Agostino Momentum amp a try.

                                    Comment

                                    • Dombert
                                      Junior Member
                                      • May 2017
                                      • 11

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by TomScrut
                                      I would recommend looking into that, not just because of the treble shelf but because it can work wonders in terms of room correction. Over on the Linn forum it converted a load of guys who thought DSP as sacrilege into believers that digital EQ can help a system in most cases. It's not the best form of room EQ but it's better than nothing.

                                      Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk
                                      A guy from Linn is due to visit next week to fix a problem with Konfig. I will ask him to look at that also. Really thanks.

                                      Comment

                                      • Dombert
                                        Junior Member
                                        • May 2017
                                        • 11

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by ShadowZA
                                        If it is any help, I am powering my 803 D3's and HTM1 D3 using a Krell Evolution 403e (purchased in 2010). I'm as satisfied as can be. Sadly, this amplifier is not manufactured anymore. If I had to replace my amp now, I would probably love to give the D'Agostino Momentum amp a try.
                                        The newer M400 monoblocks are the ones I would really like, but they are at least 78,000 $ here and the pre 44,000. Then you have to hunt for cables. I will test a M300 second hand, they are considerably cheaper and should do the work.

                                        Comment

                                        • ShadowZA
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 1098

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Dombert
                                          The newer M400 monoblocks are the ones I would really like, but they are at least 78,000 $ here and the pre 44,000. Then you have to hunt for cables. I will test a M300 second hand, they are considerably cheaper and should do the work.
                                          Best of luck with that. I would love to know your opinion on the M300 once you've had the time to do some tests. The M400 monos are expensive... still, it feels good to be able to have something in mind to drool over.

                                          Comment

                                          • Patrick Butler
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jan 2014
                                            • 164

                                            #22
                                            Great thread, and I thought I'd chime in with a few observations/suggestions. Generally, the best amplifier to mate with 800D3 is the one you like best. Clarity best summarizes the sound of 800D3, and you can tailor the sound of your system (which I'll characterize as the room plus speakers and everything before them in the playback chain) by choosing amplifiers with a "sound."

                                            That said, there are some types of amplifiers that are not a great match. Those include OTL designs that have issues with lower impedance loads and low-powered tube designs of the 300B variety (usually for the same reason.) You will also want to consider playback levels in considering an amplifier. If you typically listen no louder than the mid to high 90 SPL range, than you can get away with something like a 60W Class A solid-state design. If you like concert-level playback levels for all genres of music, you might want to look into something more powerful. The same would be true if you have a highly damped room filled with absorption, like those found in mastering studios. Contrary to some opinions, you don't need super-powerful amplifiers with these speakers, provided that those amps don't fall to pieces when the load drops.

                                            Regards,

                                            Patrick Butler
                                            B&W Group North America

                                            Comment

                                            • Dombert
                                              Junior Member
                                              • May 2017
                                              • 11

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Patrick Butler
                                              Great thread, and I thought I'd chime in with a few observations/suggestions. Generally, the best amplifier to mate with 800D3 is the one you like best. Clarity best summarizes the sound of 800D3, and you can tailor the sound of your system (which I'll characterize as the room plus speakers and everything before them in the playback chain) by choosing amplifiers with a "sound."

                                              That said, there are some types of amplifiers that are not a great match. Those include OTL designs that have issues with lower impedance loads and low-powered tube designs of the 300B variety (usually for the same reason.) You will also want to consider playback levels in considering an amplifier. If you typically listen no louder than the mid to high 90 SPL range, than you can get away with something like a 60W Class A solid-state design. If you like concert-level playback levels for all genres of music, you might want to look into something more powerful. The same would be true if you have a highly damped room filled with absorption, like those found in mastering studios. Contrary to some opinions, you don't need super-powerful amplifiers with these speakers, provided that those amps don't fall to pieces when the load drops.

                                              Regards,

                                              Patrick Butler
                                              B&W Group North America
                                              Thank you to share with us your expertise. In fact, it is what I had guessed, (except OTL) system matching is not critical with the 800 D3. At least that’s clear now.

                                              Comment

                                              • PewterTA
                                                Moderator
                                                • Nov 2004
                                                • 2901

                                                #24
                                                If I had the money, the only amps I'd get for them would be the Bricasti M28s... the sound that you would get from those amps and those speakers. WOW.... I almost got myself a pair, but the timing wasn't right... so I'm stuck with my Classe (for now).

                                                I would highly recommend demoing those amps if you can. Extremely neutral with tons of power reserve... definitely will hit an octave lower than what you would expect from most amps (even the classe amps -- which is how I got my classe amps, recording studio selling off their class gear because they bought Bricasti amps in replacement).

                                                -Dan
                                                Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                -Dan

                                                Comment

                                                • Patrick Butler
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2014
                                                  • 164

                                                  #25
                                                  Hi Dan,

                                                  Did you buy the Classé amps from Soundmirror?

                                                  Regards,

                                                  Patrick
                                                  B&W Group North America

                                                  Originally posted by PewterTA
                                                  If I had the money, the only amps I'd get for them would be the Bricasti M28s... the sound that you would get from those amps and those speakers. WOW.... I almost got myself a pair, but the timing wasn't right... so I'm stuck with my Classe (for now).

                                                  I would highly recommend demoing those amps if you can. Extremely neutral with tons of power reserve... definitely will hit an octave lower than what you would expect from most amps (even the classe amps -- which is how I got my classe amps, recording studio selling off their class gear because they bought Bricasti amps in replacement).

                                                  -Dan

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Dombert
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • May 2017
                                                    • 11

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by PewterTA
                                                    If I had the money, the only amps I'd get for them would be the Bricasti M28s... the sound that you would get from those amps and those speakers. WOW.... I almost got myself a pair, but the timing wasn't right... so I'm stuck with my Classe (for now).

                                                    I would highly recommend demoing those amps if you can. Extremely neutral with tons of power reserve... definitely will hit an octave lower than what you would expect from most amps (even the classe amps -- which is how I got my classe amps, recording studio selling off their class gear because they bought Bricasti amps in replacement).

                                                    -Dan

                                                    These amps seem to be very fine amplifiers, smooth and musical, with little sound distortion, a huge soundstage and are reasonably expensive. I had spotted them before in reviews but they never really caught my attention, as they looked so large. Finally, the dimensions are slightly less than I assumed. I find them even rather attractive.

                                                    Thank you for sharing this with me; it is very much appreciated. I will definitely demo the Bricasti when I able to locate a dealer.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • wkhanna
                                                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                      • 5673

                                                      #27
                                                      i, too, have heard the M28's on many occasions with Dan (PewterTA).
                                                      they are, to date, the best amp i have ever heard in my 45 years of involvement in this hobby.
                                                      _


                                                      Bill

                                                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                      FinleyAudio

                                                      Comment

                                                      • peter clarke
                                                        Member
                                                        • Oct 2006
                                                        • 53

                                                        #28
                                                        Dombert, Pass Labs X600.5, VTL 7.5 mk 2 pre-amp maybe??????

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Dombert
                                                          Junior Member
                                                          • May 2017
                                                          • 11

                                                          #29
                                                          I did an audition yesterday and it was a huge disappointment. These Briscatis are not musical at all, at least with the 800 D3.

                                                          I wonder if the problem is not the 800 D3s themselves. The speakers obviously have potential, but I never listened to an amp that suited them. They might be suited for studio use, not to enjoy music. I think I will just end up reselling them.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • aarsoe
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • May 2004
                                                            • 795

                                                            #30
                                                            To me it is obvious that you know that what you have is not what you really want but you don't know why that is.
                                                            So as most of us you think a change must be able to solve the issue. Let's throw more money out the window - no wonder there is a market for all the stuff that people think will help solve their issues.
                                                            My advise would be to take a step back. Figure out if you the chain you have works before trying to fix it.
                                                            So start with the room accustics. Don't run out and buy a lot of new stuff but just look at your room and figure out if you have any issues that needs to be addressed before anything else.
                                                            As an example I was not very happy with my chain for a number of years and it turned out to be my glass coffee table that sucked out a specific frequency that made everything sound just a little off.
                                                            Try to re-arrange your furniture, try to take some out. Just don't for a second believe that a change of amplifier will solve your issue if you are not happy with the gear you have.
                                                            Anyway that is my piece of advise.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Alaric
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                              • 4143

                                                              #31
                                                              ^This. You have been through some very good amplifiers. It may be time to figure out if the problem is somewhere else. There are still lots of amps to try if your budget allows for "rolling" amplifiers, though. Boulder, Halcro, Goldmund, and Luxman to name a few. If you find it is the speakers not being to your taste, or find an amp that works for you, please do let us know. I've been following this thread from the beginning, and this is as close as I get to gear at this level, so I'm looking forward to a resolution for you.
                                                              Lee

                                                              Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                                              Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                                              Schiit Modi 3
                                                              Marantz CD5005
                                                              Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                                              Comment

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