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  • stevek
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2011
    • 109

    804di

    Hello all,my question is how much better are the new 804di's compared to the 803/804s line.I have an opportunity to purchase a display model 804di from a local dealer for 5800.00.I already sold my current cm9's in less than 24hrs no less so I am all in on this now.The 5800.00 price is still a lot for me and will require me to sell one of my krell amps.Even though this amp only runs my surrounds I really like it.I could keep the amp and get a set of 803 or 804s speakers for a lot less.So to all you guys with first hand experience with these speakers how much better are the di's.
  • mjb
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1483

    #2
    Originally posted by stevek
    my question is how much better are the new 804di's compared to the 803/804s line
    Evolutionary, not revolutionary... I'd keep the Krell, but thats only my opinion.
    - Mike

    Main System:
    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

    Comment

    • Antioch
      Junior Member
      • Feb 2013
      • 22

      #3
      You didn't mention if this was for 2 channel or surround and that could make a difference.

      I auditioned a number of B&W speakers both at the dealer and then at my home for 2 channel listening. I brought home the 804D, 803S, 802N and 803 Diamonds (latest generation). The first set I dropped from consideration was the 804D. Not because it wasn't a fine speaker but it got lost in my room. The room is 35' x 18' with a ceiling that goes from 8' to 15' and back to 12' so I have a lot of volume to fill. In a smaller room or one with an 8' ceiling the 804D may have been fine. I never compared it to the 804s but the 803s has a much fuller sound than the 804D and better bass response. What bass is there with the 804D is excellent and where the Diamond series shines is they have better crossovers than the prior series. I found the tonal balance to be superior and faster than the older series and the Diamond tweeter is sweet. That said you can probably purchase the 802N for $5,800 and I would say they are a better overall sound than the 804D or they were to my ear. My better half nixed the look so they went back second. I compared the 803s and 803 Diamond for several weeks and while the Diamond won out the 803s is a formidable speaker. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them as long as they work in your room.

      Comment

      • stevek
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2011
        • 109

        #4
        Originally posted by mjb
        Evolutionary, not revolutionary... I'd keep the Krell, but thats only my opinion.
        Believe me I am struggling with that.I have been using the cm9's and I have been happy with them.My room is 23x15 but its open to 1800 sqft so I always use 2 subs even for 2 channel listening.I get very little in the low end from the 9's in my room.I find myself doing mostly 2 channel listening since I bought the krell amps because they just made such a huge impact on the sound compared to the emotive amps I was previously using but I still watch a lot of movies.I have been able to listen to the 804d's on several occasions but ive never heard the s series.I really love the sound of the 804d's but was just curious about the s series seeing I can save some cash.

        Comment

        • stevek
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2011
          • 109

          #5
          Originally posted by Antioch
          You didn't mention if this was for 2 channel or surround and that could make a difference.

          I auditioned a number of B&W speakers both at the dealer and then at my home for 2 channel listening. I brought home the 804D, 803S, 802N and 803 Diamonds (latest generation). The first set I dropped from consideration was the 804D. Not because it wasn't a fine speaker but it got lost in my room. The room is 35' x 18' with a ceiling that goes from 8' to 15' and back to 12' so I have a lot of volume to fill. In a smaller room or one with an 8' ceiling the 804D may have been fine. I never compared it to the 804s but the 803s has a much fuller sound than the 804D and better bass response. What bass is there with the 804D is excellent and where the Diamond series shines is they have better crossovers than the prior series. I found the tonal balance to be superior and faster than the older series and the Diamond tweeter is sweet. That said you can probably purchase the 802N for $5,800 and I would say they are a better overall sound than the 804D or they were to my ear. My better half nixed the look so they went back second. I compared the 803s and 803 Diamond for several weeks and while the Diamond won out the 803s is a formidable speaker. I don't think you can go wrong with any of them as long as they work in your room.
          The 802's are not being considered because I don't really have the space for them and the "boss" hates the look."lol".

          Comment

          • PewterTA
            Moderator
            • Nov 2004
            • 2901

            #6
            804Dis over the CM9s are a pretty nice difference in my opinion. The 804Dis are a lot more musical having heard both side by side. The CM9s are nice and for HT use, there's not quite the difference, but the 804DIs would be hands down my choice over the two. Not even really a choice IMHO.

            And just an FYI, my dealer offered me the 804Dis for $6000 brand new, not demo show room speakers..... Best Buy was willing to work with them and give them to me at 7000 and give me a $500 best buy gift card... and I think I could've gotten more from them (maybe another $250 or even a $500 gift card).
            Digital Audio makes me Happy.
            -Dan

            Comment

            • Antioch
              Junior Member
              • Feb 2013
              • 22

              #7
              mjb says it well. You will not be disappointed with the 803s and if that let's you keep the Krell maybe that is the best option. Down the road you can always upgrade and I don't think you will lose too much on a pair of used 803s.

              Comment

              • leej
                Member
                • Feb 2009
                • 82

                #8
                The question that you should ask yourself is how much better are the 803/804s than the CM9. You sold the CM9's looking for great improvement and I'm guessing it was after listening to the di's. I'm not so sure that I'd have sold a pair of CM9's just to upgrade to 804s. Maybe the 803s but not the 804s. I think the question about straight 2-ch music or HT and a sub would make a difference, as well.
                Lee J

                Denon 4311ci; Rotel RB-1080; OPPO BDP-83 Universal Disk/Media Player
                B&W 703 mains; B&W HTM2 Center; B&W CDM SNT-Surr; B&W CDM1nt-back; Pair of Rythmik F15 Subs

                Comment

                • leo2498
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2012
                  • 370

                  #9
                  the 804 di is a different speaker than the 804S and way better than the CM9, if this sound could be worth 3000 more than the 804 S well it's a personal choice but for me it worth every penny, let your ears tell you the final word. BTW I think than you will get more if you put your money in speaker than in an amp, it's more easy hear the final improvement.
                  Leo,
                  Saludos
                  My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                  Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                  Comment

                  • cyisone01
                    Member
                    • Feb 2012
                    • 50

                    #10
                    I have went from the CM9 to the 804Diamond and now to the 802 Diamond. The jump between the CM9 to 804 Diamond was huge. It about brought tears to my eyes. The same occurred from the 804 to the 802. I had marginal amps and I have found as you go up the amp means more. Leo is right. Get the speakers than get the amp(s). From the CM9 to the 804 was a no brainer for me. From the 804 to 802 was a real struggle as I knew at that point I would need to spend extra cash on the amp(s).

                    Comment

                    • BWLover
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 552

                      #11
                      What are you driving the 802's with?


                      Sent from my iPhone using the Tapatalk app
                      Bowers & Wilkins 683 Speakers
                      Rotel RB-1090 2 Channel Amp
                      Rotel RC-1082 Stereo Pre Amp
                      Rotel RCD-1072 CD Player
                      Pro-Ject Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red (sitting on a piece of slate supported by 3 "solid tech feet of silence" isolation feet)
                      Rotel RLC-1040 Power Conditioner
                      Shynyata Research SR-Z1 Power Outlet & Venom 3 Power Cords x 4
                      Tara Labs RSC Vector 1 Speaker Cables & Interconnects
                      Pioneer PDP-5070HD 50" Plasma
                      Playstation 3
                      Shaw HD PVR
                      Primacoustic Room Treatments

                      Comment

                      • stevek
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 109

                        #12
                        Originally posted by leo2498
                        the 804 di is a different speaker than the 804S and way better than the CM9, if this sound could be worth 3000 more than the 804 S well it's a personal choice but for me it worth every penny, let your ears tell you the final word. BTW I think than you will get more if you put your money in speaker than in an amp, it's more easy hear the final improvement.
                        Thanks for all your suggestions.i went with the 804di.s I just have to come up with a few grand to actually bring home.
                        I agree with you on speakers first when I bought the cm9's I was using an avr.I then added a few emotive monoblocks then replaced the avr with a processor and now the krell amps.But I must say when I added the krells the cm9's just came alive and I found myself spending way to much time listening to them.lol

                        I can't wait to bring them home.

                        Comment

                        • stevek
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 109

                          #13
                          Originally posted by PewterTA
                          804Dis over the CM9s are a pretty nice difference in my opinion. The 804Dis are a lot more musical having heard both side by side. The CM9s are nice and for HT use, there's not quite the difference, but the 804DIs would be hands down my choice over the two. Not even really a choice IMHO.

                          And just an FYI, my dealer offered me the 804Dis for $6000 brand new, not demo show room speakers..... Best Buy was willing to work with them and give them to me at 7000 and give me a $500 best buy gift card... and I think I could've gotten more from them (maybe another $250 or even a $500 gift card).
                          WOW that is a great discount from your dealer.I only get 10perc.on new But I think I did pretty good on these they have only been on the floor since February and the guy is a small dealer that I know well and they rarely get used or touched.My cost is 5550.00 and the out the door price is 5833.00

                          The reason my dealer is unloading these is because he is no longer going to carry the b&w line.These were the 1st 800 series speakers he ever put on his floor.He is going with paradigm lol.

                          Comment

                          • Antioch
                            Junior Member
                            • Feb 2013
                            • 22

                            #14
                            Congratulations, you will be happy with the 804D, they are sweet speakers.

                            Good Listening,
                            Mike

                            Comment

                            • cyisone01
                              Member
                              • Feb 2012
                              • 50

                              #15
                              Originally posted by BWLover
                              What are you driving the 802's with?


                              Sent from my iPhone using the Tapatalk app
                              I am open for suggestions. Originally by Rotel class D amps but shopping right now.

                              Comment

                              • Kal Rubinson
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Mar 2006
                                • 2109

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Antioch
                                Congratulations, you will be happy with the 804D, they are sweet speakers.
                                Yes but, often, they do not get their due respect.
                                Kal Rubinson
                                _______________________________
                                "Music in the Round"
                                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                Comment

                                • stevek
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Oct 2011
                                  • 109

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                  Yes but, often, they do not get their due respect.
                                  I know I respect them,i never thought I would be able to own a pair.
                                  My local Krell dealer who is a great guy asked me to bring them in to his showroom and set them up in his listening room and see how they sound hooked up to 100k worth of Krell, Transparent and Audio research equipment. Should be a lot of fun the room is incredible.

                                  Comment

                                  • stevek
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Oct 2011
                                    • 109

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by cyisone01
                                    I am open for suggestions. Originally by Rotel class D amps but shopping right now.
                                    I have yet to hear my Krell amps with the 804's but what they did with my cm9's was amazing.I could not afford the new evo stuff so I picked up a used kav 3250 from 2007 and I am very happy.I don't know that a 250 watt amp would be ideal for the 802's but you cant go wrong with the evo amps. The difference between the emotiva upa1's and the krell is night and day. The dealer I am purchasing the 804.s from is powering them with rotel and honestly I don't think it sounds all that great.

                                    Comment

                                    • cyisone01
                                      Member
                                      • Feb 2012
                                      • 50

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by stevek
                                      I have yet to hear my Krell amps with the 804's but what they did with my cm9's was amazing.I could not afford the new evo stuff so I picked up a used kav 3250 from 2007 and I am very happy.I don't know that a 250 watt amp would be ideal for the 802's but you cant go wrong with the evo amps. The difference between the emotiva upa1's and the krell is night and day. The dealer I am purchasing the 804.s from is powering them with rotel and honestly I don't think it sounds all that great.
                                      I would agree. I knew purchasing the speakers would mean a better amp

                                      Comment

                                      • leo2498
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2012
                                        • 370

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by stevek
                                        I have yet to hear my Krell amps with the 804's but what they did with my cm9's was amazing.I could not afford the new evo stuff so I picked up a used kav 3250 from 2007 and I am very happy.I don't know that a 250 watt amp would be ideal for the 802's but you cant go wrong with the evo amps. The difference between the emotiva upa1's and the krell is night and day. The dealer I am purchasing the 804.s from is powering them with rotel and honestly I don't think it sounds all that great.
                                        congrats, you will not be disappointed with them btw with the krell amp what was the major improvement when you got it and what could be the main difference between this and the emotiva? I have considered the S300i instead of the classe but it's a huge price gap between them.
                                        Leo,
                                        Saludos
                                        My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                        Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                        Comment

                                        • leo2498
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2012
                                          • 370

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                          Yes but, often, they do not get their due respect.
                                          Hi kal, your review of them would coming?
                                          Leo,
                                          Saludos
                                          My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                          Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                          Comment

                                          • stevek
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Oct 2011
                                            • 109

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by leo2498
                                            congrats, you will not be disappointed with them btw with the krell amp what was the major improvement when you got it and what could be the main difference between this and the emotiva? I have considered the S300i instead of the classe but it's a huge price gap between them.
                                            Don't get me wrong the emotive gear is unreal for the price.
                                            I will try an explain the improvements with the Krell.1-the soundstage is huge,almost 3d if that makes sense.2-the high frequencies were much more defined and clear,the sound of each different cymbal was more life like or realistic and 3-the mids, especially horns and violins sound like they were right in front of you and you can here all the detail in the sound of each different instrument. And last the voices of the singers were so much crisper and you could hear every little breath.Its hard to pull away some times.lol
                                            I hope that explains it some what, i'm not an expert on the terms to explain these things.
                                            I auditioned the s 300i for a few weeks in my home and when I hooked it up to my processor and used it as an amp with balanced interconnects it sounded really good.but I hooked it up in a separate room as an integrated with rca's I didn't like it to much so I didn't buy it.
                                            I also listened to a classe integrated hooked up to a pair of pm-1 in a well treated room and it sounded amazing so I have always been curious about the classe amps as well.
                                            At this time I run everything thru a nad processor with rca jacks.The krell and I'm sure other brands as well sound much better when using balanced interconnects.I hope to get a processor next that uses the balanced interconnects.

                                            Comment

                                            • RebelMan
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2005
                                              • 3139

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                              Yes but, often, they do not get their due respect.
                                              Previous editions didn't excel in any particular area and lets face it they were lightweights in the bass department. The new 804D2 climbs more than just a few notches up the performance ladder over its predecessors with the first three octaves lending much to that credit. Being the entry level floorstander in the 800 series I see more neglect being made than I do a lack of respect. I made this comment a while back but how many of us are willing to pump the 804 with such a system? I am. Respect should be earned and the 804D2 does that for the 804 namesake.
                                              "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                              Comment

                                              • leo2498
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Feb 2012
                                                • 370

                                                #24
                                                you are talking about the 804S vs 804di when you said the previous editions, right?
                                                Leo,
                                                Saludos
                                                My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                                Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                                Comment

                                                • Kal Rubinson
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2006
                                                  • 2109

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                  Yes but, often, they do not get their due respect.
                                                  Originally posted by leo2498
                                                  Hi kal, your review of them would coming?
                                                  Just finished and it will probably be in the September issue.

                                                  As for lack of respect, I am guilty. Until I did this review of the 804Di, I never listened to the 804s by themselves. They were just relegated to surround duty.
                                                  Kal Rubinson
                                                  _______________________________
                                                  "Music in the Round"
                                                  Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                  http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                  Comment

                                                  • leo2498
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Feb 2012
                                                    • 370

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                    Just finished and it will probably be in the September issue.

                                                    As for lack of respect, I am guilty. Until I did this review of the 804Di, I never listened to the 804s by themselves. They were just relegated to surround duty.
                                                    thanks, I can't wait for read it.8)
                                                    Leo,
                                                    Saludos
                                                    My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                                    Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Rod#S
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Oct 2010
                                                      • 474

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                      Just finished and it will probably be in the September issue.

                                                      As for lack of respect, I am guilty. Until I did this review of the 804Di, I never listened to the 804s by themselves. They were just relegated to surround duty.
                                                      Shame, shame on you

                                                      Look forward to your review in the fall.
                                                      B&W 800 Diamonds (L/R), HTM2 Diamond (C), 802 Diamonds (SL/SR), Paradigm Signature Sub 25 (LFE), Reference Servo 15a x 2 (Stereo subs), Lexicon MC-12Bv5EQ SSP, Bryston 28B-SST2x 2, 7B-SST2x2, 4B-SST C Series, BDP-2, Oppo UDP-205, Pioneer Elite Kuro PRO-150FD, Furman SPR-20i, IT-Reference, Eastlink Maestro PVR, Xbox One & 360, PS3, Siltech Golden Ridge II, Ruby Hill IIx2, 330ix2, Kimber Kable PK10 Gold, Tonic, PBJ, Cadence, HD19e, HD19, OPT-1, HDSW 4x1, Ixos 6003, Harmony 1000

                                                      Comment

                                                      • RebelMan
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                        • 3139

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by leo2498
                                                        you are talking about the 804S vs 804di when you said the previous editions, right?
                                                        Both the N804 and the 804S, yes.
                                                        "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                        Comment

                                                        • RebelMan
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                          • 3139

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                          As for lack of respect, I am guilty. Until I did this review of the 804Di, I never listened to the 804s by themselves.
                                                          I hope the same respect you gave the TAD Evolution One, bi-wired and all.
                                                          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Kal Rubinson
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Mar 2006
                                                            • 2109

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                            I hope the same respect you gave the TAD Evolution One, bi-wired and all.
                                                            By default, not by intent.
                                                            Kal Rubinson
                                                            _______________________________
                                                            "Music in the Round"
                                                            Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                            http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                            Comment

                                                            • RebelMan
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                              • 3139

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                              By default, not by intent.
                                                              But you are listening. :B
                                                              "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Kal Rubinson
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Mar 2006
                                                                • 2109

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                But you are listening. :B
                                                                Of course. I am not an advocate of bi-wiring but, since it does no harm, I do it (shall we say) defensively. :W
                                                                Kal Rubinson
                                                                _______________________________
                                                                "Music in the Round"
                                                                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                Comment

                                                                • RebelMan
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 3139

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Did Andrew bring the Mont Blanc's?
                                                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Kal Rubinson
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2006
                                                                    • 2109

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                    Did Andrew bring the Mont Blanc's?
                                                                    Nope. They're mine.
                                                                    Kal Rubinson
                                                                    _______________________________
                                                                    "Music in the Round"
                                                                    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Briz vegas
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                                      • 1199

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                                      Just finished and it will probably be in the September issue.

                                                                      As for lack of respect, I am guilty. Until I did this review of the 804Di, I never listened to the 804s by themselves. They were just relegated to surround duty.
                                                                      That's where my 804s currently sit, in the surrounds and I watch less and less movies these days. Does not seem worth trying to sell them and be offered a pittance for a good speaker. They wok surprisingly well with the Vivid B1, don't call attention to themselves. At least they lived up front for 6 years.

                                                                      Vivids have brought in my tube amp era and I'm currently toying with ( auditioning) an XPS2 for my Naim DAC. Better speakers just lead to wanting better everything to get the best from your speakers. Unfortunately they also tell you that your source and amp etc can be improved.
                                                                      Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                                                                      Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • leo2498
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Feb 2012
                                                                        • 370

                                                                        #36
                                                                        I read the Kal review of the 804Di and it was a clarification to many doubt I had, I thought that my ears was fooling me because I think that this speaker have many of the main benefits of its bigger brother the 802Di and I can see that I'm not alone in this thought. With the combo stereo Classe this speaker really sang in my room and they give me a huge improvement than the rotel. BTW I not understood the suckout that John Atkinson found in his lab test measure if any one could help me to explain what this suckout mean and how this could affect the final sound of a speaker is very welcome the teaching.
                                                                        Leo,
                                                                        Saludos
                                                                        My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                                                        Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • RebelMan
                                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                                          • 3139

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by leo2498
                                                                          BTW I not understood the suckout that John Atkinson found in his lab test measure if any one could help me to explain what this suckout mean and how this could affect the final sound of a speaker is very welcome the teaching.
                                                                          To accurately measure the frequency response (FR) you need to take measurements in an anechoic chamber. An anechoic chamber is large and very expensive and stereophile does not have one at their disposal. Hence, John Atkinson (JA) calculates the frequency response by measuring the impulse response using a near field measuring technique and then feeding the output into an mathematical transfer function (Fast Fourier Transform - FFT). The problem with calculating the FR using the FFT as JA does is the loss of some resolution in the mid-range plots.

                                                                          The ~3-4dB drop in amplitude (aka "suck-out") displayed in FR throughout the presence region (1-3kHz) has been fairly common with JA's measurements of B&W speakers. To properly interpret the overall response of the speakers you also need to examine the lateral and vertical near field plots he published. The 804D2 continues to demonstrate a drop through the presence region in these curves as well but more so at the off-axis extremes. The response on-axis is much flatter. Kal mentions positioning the 804D2 at 10 degrees toe-in during his evaluation. I have the 804D2 set at 15 degrees toe-in. Given my position from the speakers (Kal maybe sitting further back than I) this creates a 4 degree window of off-axis response. Prior to Kal's review I spent time tweaking the position of the speakers in my room. The results of JA's plots confirms I had them positioned to deliver a fairly neutral response.

                                                                          Setups aside I have observed the so called suck-out (a hollowed recessed effect) JA mentions in some auditions. I also realized that much of that observation was heavily dependent on partnering equipment. Speaker measurements are helpful to understand what you hear but they are not very useful for telling you how good speakers will sound.
                                                                          "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • leo2498
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Feb 2012
                                                                            • 370

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                            To accurately measure the frequency response (FR) you need to take measurements in an anechoic chamber. An anechoic chamber is large and very expensive and stereophile does not have one at their disposal. Hence, John Atkinson (JA) calculates the frequency response by measuring the impulse response using a near field measuring technique and then feeding the output into an mathematical transfer function (Fast Fourier Transform - FFT). The problem with calculating the FR using the FFT as JA does is the loss of some resolution in the mid-range plots.

                                                                            The ~3-4dB drop in amplitude (aka "suck-out") displayed in FR throughout the presence region (1-3kHz) has been fairly common with JA's measurements of B&W speakers. To properly interpret the overall response of the speakers you also need to examine the lateral and vertical near field plots he published. The 804D2 continues to demonstrate a drop through the presence region in these curves as well but more so at the off-axis extremes. The response on-axis is much flatter. Kal mentions positioning the 804D2 at 10 degrees toe-in during his evaluation. I have the 804D2 set at 15 degrees toe-in. Given my position from the speakers (Kal maybe sitting further back than I) this creates a 4 degree window of off-axis response. Prior to Kal's review I spent time tweaking the position of the speakers in my room. The results of JA's plots confirms I had them positioned to deliver a fairly neutral response.

                                                                            Setups aside I have observed the so called suck-out (a hollowed recessed effect) JA mentions in some auditions. I also realized that much of that observation was heavily dependent on partnering equipment. Speaker measurements are helpful to understand what you hear but they are not very useful for telling you how good speakers will sound.
                                                                            Many thanks for the measurement lesson, I did not understand but now my doubt was clarified. BTW I have my 804 toe in 10 degree since I bought them and work fine to me too but I will experiment again with the new gear to see if I can find some aditional improvement. thanks for your time RebelMan.
                                                                            Leo,
                                                                            Saludos
                                                                            My HT: B&W 804D fronts, HTM4D center, 805D rears, Classe CA-2300 Main amp, Preamp Stereo CLASSE CP800, Preamp Multi Marantz AV8801, Parasound A31 center and Surround Amp, Source Oppo BDP-95 screen Samsung 55" UE55d8000 SVS SB12-NSD

                                                                            Stereo: B&W 804S fronts, Pre: Denon AVR-2809 Amp: Rotel 1582, Source Marantz CD5004.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • TomScrut
                                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                                              • Nov 2013
                                                                              • 532

                                                                              #39
                                                                              I am aware this is an old thread but thought I would share my experiences on here anyway as I think they are relevant.

                                                                              I own 803Ss, used to own N804s and have heard 803 and 804 diamonds in different systems.

                                                                              The 804 diamonds are easily better in every way than N804s that's the easy bit. The 803 Diamond is easily better than them all, but only in bass (at least in any significant way) vs 804 Diamond. Then comes the 803S. Not as good as the 804 Diamond in mid and treble but I aren't sure I would want to lose the bass. I think the bass on the 803S is as equally better than the 804D as the 804D is everything else on the 803S if you catch my drift. I aren't selling my 803Ss until I can afford 802 Diamonds as I don't think that the money to upgrade is worth it vs the performance benefit.

                                                                              804D Vs the CM9, I went with a mate to demo these, he bought the CM9s as he felt he didn't want to be drawn into buying kit to do the 804s justice, but I couldn't have bought CM9s if I could afford 804 Diamonds considering the difference on the reasonably humble system we were using (mk1 Supernait and Linn Sneaky DS).
                                                                              Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • dan87951
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2005
                                                                                • 379

                                                                                #40
                                                                                IMO the N804 is one of the worst speakers I have ever heard! I know a lot of people will disagree with me but its so unbalanced and bright sounding it was absolutely painful to listen too -- I even had two sets as I thought there was something wrong with the first. The 804S was a huge improvement over the Nautilus series with a huge step in bass (what the 804 needed)! Finally the 804 had some depth and presence after the S upgrades were made. The 804di is a remarkable speaker for its size and rivals the older 803D in clarity. If you have a large room to fill I would definitely start with a 803 or larger. If not a 804S or better should do fine.
                                                                                dan87951
                                                                                audio guru

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Kal Rubinson
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Mar 2006
                                                                                  • 2109

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                                  The response on-axis is much flatter. Kal mentions positioning the 804D2 at 10 degrees toe-in during his evaluation. I have the 804D2 set at 15 degrees toe-in. Given my position from the speakers (Kal maybe sitting further back than I) this creates a 4 degree window of off-axis response. Prior to Kal's review I spent time tweaking the position of the speakers in my room. The results of JA's plots confirms I had them positioned to deliver a fairly neutral response.
                                                                                  I am about 12 feet back. How far back are you?
                                                                                  Kal Rubinson
                                                                                  _______________________________
                                                                                  "Music in the Round"
                                                                                  Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                                  http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • TomScrut
                                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                    • Nov 2013
                                                                                    • 532

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by dan87951
                                                                                    IMO the N804 is one of the worst speakers I have ever heard! I know a lot of people will disagree with me but its so unbalanced and bright sounding it was absolutely painful to listen too -- I even had two sets as I thought there was something wrong with the first. The 804S was a huge improvement over the Nautilus series with a huge step in bass (what the 804 needed)! Finally the 804 had some depth and presence after the S upgrades were made. The 804di is a remarkable speaker for its size and rivals the older 803D in clarity. If you have a large room to fill I would definitely start with a 803 or larger. If not a 804S or better should do fine.
                                                                                    The bass was pretty rubbish on my N804s. Didn't find them too bright though, but I agree the S range is a lot better.
                                                                                    Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • RebelMan
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                                                      • 3139

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                                                      I am about 12 feet back. How far back are you?
                                                                                      I missed this. About the same 12 feet back. Tweeters are about 8 feet apart.
                                                                                      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • stevek
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Oct 2011
                                                                                        • 109

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        do you guys recommend being about 12 feet back when your speakers are spaced at 8 feet? also whats the best way to figure the degree of toe in.mine are toed in about an inch. but im always moving them trying to get it right, I would love to get some expert advice on this

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • TomScrut
                                                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                          • Nov 2013
                                                                                          • 532

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          How do you define toe by distance? It wants to be an angle as that is not ambiguous. I am about 10 feet away from mine I think, maybe a bit less but that's because of room constraints

                                                                                          Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                                                                                          Music: Intel NUC -> Antelope Zodiac Platinum -> Classe CA-2300 -> B&W 802 Diamonds & 2x SVS SB13U

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