802d or new 804di

[kcsun]

I have been offered a pair of 3 year old 802d's. They are in what appears to be perfect condition, one owner from new etc.
Is there much of a difference between the 802d and the new 802di?
They are a similar price to a pair of new 804di's what do you think is the best option?

kc

[Skyblue]

I have been offered a pair of 3 year old 802d's. They are in what appears to be perfect condition, one owner from new etc.
Is there much of a difference between the 802d and the new 802di?
They are a similar price to a pair of new 804di's what do you think is the best option?

kc

I think the old 802D is superior to the new 804di. Its a much larger speaker, with a much wider soundstage and so on.. Perhaps the new 804di has a better top, but overall I think there is no competition at all.

Modify statement with respect to your room size, and remember to get some good amplification.

[htsteve]

I would definitely get the 802D's (which I have). I also have 804S's. While the 804S's (and the 804Di's) are excellent speakers, the 802D's are quite awesome.

They will be superior in all area's. But particulary in midrange and bass. Soundstage is spectacular.

As was noted, the 802D's need very good amplification. The more powerful, the better.


Hope this helps.

[scanido]

Definately 802D's ;x(

[kcsun]

Thanks for the advice, before I say yes, I am running an Arcam AVR600 at the moment and I will not be allowed to upgrade the amp for at least another year. Not even red roses and a meal tomorrow will allow me to slip an amp through!
Will the Arcam be OK in the short term, I could bi-amp it using the spare 6+7 channels
The extra mid range and bass will be helpful as the room is very bright anyway.
A couple of pics of my existing setup with NT9's





kc

[htsteve]

kcsun,

I would normally say receivers and 802D's are not a good idea. But the specs of the Arcam have me thinking this unit will do OK. Until you get a nice stereo amp.


The bi-amping idea might improve things for the main speakers. I've done bi-amping twice. And both times, I ended up with a more powerful stereo amp that definitely was better performing.

You can try it and see if it helps.


Hope this helps

[Kal Rubinson]

Biamping is not an effective way to increase power availability. A much bigger amp is.

[wettou]

802D all the way unless you can get 802Di :T Also a CA-M300 or better CA-M600 or the new Pass Labs

[RebelMan]

Biamping is not an effective way to increase power availability. A much bigger amp is.

Agreed but it can be a way to maximize what you already have when bounded by domestic or budgetary concerns as noted by the OP.

[IceG]

Kal, would you clarify and explain your post please?

I notice you said "effective way" but surely there is an increase in available and exploited power even if it doesn't double (assuming identical amplifiers)? I posted a contradictory opinion to yours over on HHG2M and want to correct myself if I am wrong.

Thanks

[Kal Rubinson]

Agreed but it can be a way to maximize what you already have when bounded by domestic or budgetary concerns as noted by the OP.

If you already own all the amps, biamping might provide some increment in power. If you have to buy amps (sic), you would be better off trading in your present ones for bigger ones.

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, would you clarify and explain your post please?

I notice you said "effective way" but surely there is an increase in available and exploited power even if it doesn't double (assuming identical amplifiers)? I posted a contradictory opinion to yours over on HHG2M and want to correct myself if I am wrong.

Thanks

I am getting tired of this as the biamp/biwire issues never die.

1. If you get one amp with double the power, the increase is only 3dB.
2. If you biamp with 2 amps of equal power, you will not realize anywhere near that 3dB increase since the spectral distribution of power in musical signals means that the amp driving the bass provides most of the needed power and it is only one. The tweeter/HF needs are small, so deleting them from the responsibilities of the bass amp may increase headroom by a fraction of a dB. Driving the tweeter/HF from a separate amp affords no increase because its power needs are so small.
2a. Total output power will be limited by tweeter/HF power handling, not the amps.
3. If you want/need more power, get a much bigger amp.

If you have a different or conflicting analysis, let me know.

[IceG]

Thanks Kal.

I have no disagreement; you said here very well what I said very badly in another place (in my defence discussing with some-one who claimed there is NO power increase). Your point 2a hadn't occurred to me before.

[Mark_NZ]

1. If you get one amp with double the power, the increase is only 3dB.
2. If you biamp with 2 amps of equal power, you will not realize anywhere near that 3dB increase since the spectral distribution of power in musical signals means that the amp driving the bass provides most of the needed power and it is only one. The tweeter/HF needs are small, so deleting them from the responsibilities of the bass amp may increase headroom by a fraction of a dB. Driving the tweeter/HF from a separate amp affords no increase because its power needs are so small.
2a. Total output power will be limited by tweeter/HF power handling, not the amps.
3. If you want/need more power, get a much bigger amp.

If you have a different or conflicting analysis, let me know.

Hi Kal,

While I agree with point 2, with due respect I wish to highlight that a listener may experience a real and an apparent increase in power with bi-amping that may mean that they don't always need a bigger amp as per point 3:
1. Vertical bi-amping effectively doubles the available power supply reserves, and hence the amplifier experiences less power supply sag during heavy transients. Most amplifiers don’t use regulated power supplies for the amplifier output stage, and many (unfortunately) use the same power supply rails with simple resistor/capacitor filtering to feed the input & driver stages. The listener will experience a marginal, but real, improved head-room (power output) when the amplifier is driven close to clipping due to less voltage rail sag.
2. Vertical or horizontal bi-amping will make the job easier for the power amp channel driving the mid/treble drivers which require significantly less power than the bass drivers. As a result, the mid/treble drivers experience less distortion. (The Stereophile amplifier measurements typically highlight increasing distortion as the power increases beyond the noise floor, and the speaker impedance drops). Due to the decreased distortion in the critical mid-range and treble, the user may experience an apparent increase in headroom because of the ability to turn the volume higher without the usual cringe-inducing increase in distortion.

There are also further potential performance improvements to be had from bi-amping with some amplifiers:
1. For class AB amplifiers that have a reasonable amount of Class A (say 0.3W to 3W) where the mid/treble drivers seldom transitions from the Class A to Class B region during moderate listening levels, the listener will experience the joy of Class A performance for the critical mid/treble.
2. There is a truism that lower power amplifiers often sound better than their more powerful brethren within their power range. This can be explained by the lower currents swirling inside the amplifier case, closer spaced components and hence less susceptibility to HF instability, avoiding use of multiple paralleled output transistors that are not perfectly matched etc. In these situations bi-amping can provide better performance than using a single larger amplifier. Fortunately the more competent designers today avoid this by careful design, layout, and matching output devices, and as a result their designs generally sound better as the power goes up due to increased power supply reserves and increased class-A.

However from my experience system grounding must be perfect or otherwise adding an additional amplifier will increase risk of ground-loops and noise. Also bi-amping will not rescue a poor sounding one.

Regards
Mark

PS – I am a big fan of the Stereophile technical measurements – long may they continue.

[Greg Gale]

The new 802 Diamonds are improved over the previous generation....

I just upgraded my speakers from the original N802 to the new 802 Diamonds and at the same time have upgraded my amplifier from the Classe CA2200 to the CA2300 and the differences are night and day.

The change to the new Diamonds without changing the amplifier was huge but I was not expecting the amount of improvement from upgrading to the new CA2300 amplifier which has an additional 100 watts per channel over the previous version. I can’t imagine this is all due to just extra power as I know Classe has completely revised the circuitry as well including the ICTunnel which keeps the unit operating at a consistent temperature.

I did listen to the 802D's second generation versus the new 802 Diamonds as they had a used pair for sale but I felt the new ones had a tighter bass and seemed more coherent top to bottom.

There have been numerous reviews you can read on the differences between the new 802 Diamonds and the old and in each case the reviews felt the differences were substantial with the most frequent comment being better integration of the drivers, improved imaging and better bass and tighter bass response.

You should go listen to them both and decide.

[wettou]

I went from 802N to 802D to 800Diamonds, and all I can say is Diamonds are eternal:lol:

Hopefully they will last as long as my 802N ......10+ years :T

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi Kal,

While I agree with point 2, with due respect I wish to highlight that a listener may experience a real and an apparent increase in power with bi-amping that may mean that they don't always need a bigger amp as per point 3:
1. Vertical bi-amping effectively doubles the available power supply reserves, and hence the amplifier experiences less power supply sag during heavy transients. Most amplifiers don’t use regulated power supplies for the amplifier output stage, and many (unfortunately) use the same power supply rails with simple resistor/capacitor filtering to feed the input & driver stages. The listener will experience a marginal, but real, improved head-room (power output) when the amplifier is driven close to clipping due to less voltage rail sag.
2. Vertical or horizontal bi-amping will make the job easier for the power amp channel driving the mid/treble drivers which require significantly less power than the bass drivers. As a result, the mid/treble drivers experience less distortion. (The Stereophile amplifier measurements typically highlight increasing distortion as the power increases beyond the noise floor, and the speaker impedance drops). Due to the decreased distortion in the critical mid-range and treble, the user may experience an apparent increase in headroom because of the ability to turn the volume higher without the usual cringe-inducing increase in distortion.

There are also further potential performance improvements to be had from bi-amping with some amplifiers:
1. For class AB amplifiers that have a reasonable amount of Class A (say 0.3W to 3W) where the mid/treble drivers seldom transitions from the Class A to Class B region during moderate listening levels, the listener will experience the joy of Class A performance for the critical mid/treble.
2. There is a truism that lower power amplifiers often sound better than their more powerful brethren within their power range. This can be explained by the lower currents swirling inside the amplifier case, closer spaced components and hence less susceptibility to HF instability, avoiding use of multiple paralleled output transistors that are not perfectly matched etc. In these situations bi-amping can provide better performance than using a single larger amplifier. Fortunately the more competent designers today avoid this by careful design, layout, and matching output devices, and as a result their designs generally sound better as the power goes up due to increased power supply reserves and increased class-A.

However from my experience system grounding must be perfect or otherwise adding an additional amplifier will increase risk of ground-loops and noise. Also bi-amping will not rescue a poor sounding one.

Regards
Mark

PS – I am a big fan of the Stereophile technical measurements – long may they continue.

Good points but most are very equipment-particular. Other points are possible reasons for better sound but not necessarily more power.

[RebelMan]

If you already own all the amps, biamping might provide some increment in power. If you have to buy amps (sic), you would be better off trading in your present ones for bigger ones.

It will provide an increase in power but not necessarily an increase in output (SPL). Your follow up to IceG only addresses half of the equation. Impedance loads at the upper end can place demands on the amplifier that could drive the speakers to clip at a given level. Bi-amping would be beneficial because it would alleviate some stress and allow the speakers to play at the same level without distortion.

[Kal Rubinson]

It will provide an increase in power but not necessarily an increase in output (SPL). Your follow up to IceG only addresses half of the equation. Impedance loads at the upper end can place demands on the amplifier that could drive the speakers to clip at a given level. Bi-amping would be beneficial because it would alleviate some stress and allow the speakers to play at the same level without distortion.

Doubt it. Each amp in biamping sees a much wider impedance range.

[RebelMan]

Doubt it.

It' s not the first time. :W

Each amp in biamping sees a much wider impedance range.

Not so far as the B&W's go. The crossover is designed to mitigate this.

Not sure if you have finally come around about bi-wiring but if your not doing it with the 800D2's you are missing out. Not kidding!