802D + Meridian = Harsh!?? Help!

[jack d]

A few days ago I installed a Meridian G68J controller into my system which consists of:

802Ds L/R
HTM1D C
804Ss surround

Amps: MC402 for the 802Ds and an Anthem MCA 50 for the others.

The Meridian is clearly a step up from my Arcam AVP 700 but I notice sometimes it is almost painful to listen to music as the combination seems very aggressive in the high range. Has anyone else noticed this? I wonder if I'm doing something wrong with the M set up?

I can't part with my 802s but I can't believe that I will have to return the Meridian! I must be doing something wrong.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

[johan]

Is it new? Pherhaps it's just a brake-in issue.

[jack d]

Is it new? Pherhaps it's just a brake-in issue.

The M is new but I've had the BWs for about four months.

[RebelMan]

I had a brief encounter (about an hour) with a Meridian CD player and pre-amplifier and processor on a pair of 802D (among others) and I don't think what you are hearing is too far fetched but harsh may be a bit extreme. I found the combination a bit clinical and slightly fatiguing but not overly aggressive.

To me Krell and Meridian are kissing cousins when it comes to the sounds they produce. Krell a bit more metalic and the Meridain a bit more sterile. To my ears they would mate better with a pair of speakers that have a more forgiving top end and are slightly more laid back. I think the somewhat bright and forward sounding B&W's do best with darker sounding electronics from the likes of McIntosh, Classe' or a tube based front end. FWIW, I experience zero fatigue with my Classe' based system.

[bigburner]

Hi Jack,

First let me say that I have no expertise to offer you at all, but as no-one else has provided an explanation and you requested "any thoughts"...

Looking at the owner's manual for the G68 I can see that it's a sophisticated piece of electronic equipment. Given that the opening paragraph states "at Meridian, our intention is to represent the original acoustic or studio event as accurately as possible" my initial reaction is that you must be experiencing a set-up issue, e.g.

* Is your source (a CD player I presume) connected correctly to the G68? There are numerous digital and analogue input options so mistakes are possible.

* With all the sophisticated D/A conversion that the G68 provides I presume that you are using a digital input to the G68 from your source? What happens to the sound quality when you use an analogue input to the G68 from your source?

* I see from the G68's specs that "you can also store separate user parameters for each source (such as DVD) depending on whether the incoming signal is stereo or surround". Have these parameters been set correctly for your music source?

* Is the DSP Mode on the G68 set correctly? For example, have you been experimenting with the Meridian Room Correction function and need to re-set?

* Is the Input Mode switch on the back of the MC402 set correctly (Balanced / Unbalanced)?

* Are the 802Ds connected to the 8 ohm outputs on the MC402?

I warned you that I had no idea, but it was fun learning about your equipment, which makes mine look quite primitive.

Nigel.

[jack d]

Hi Jack,

First let me say that I have no expertise to offer you at all, but as no-one else has provided an explanation and you requested "any thoughts"...

Looking at the owner's manual for the G68 I can see that it's a sophisticated piece of electronic equipment. Given that the opening paragraph states "at Meridian, our intention is to represent the original acoustic or studio event as accurately as possible" my initial reaction is that you must be experiencing a set-up issue, e.g.

* Is your source (a CD player I presume) connected correctly to the G68? There are numerous digital and analogue input options so mistakes are possible.

* With all the sophisticated D/A conversion that the G68 provides I presume that you are using a digital input to the G68 from your source? What happens to the sound quality when you use an analogue input to the G68 from your source?

* I see from the G68's specs that "you can also store separate user parameters for each source (such as DVD) depending on whether the incoming signal is stereo or surround". Have these parameters been set correctly for your music source?

* Is the DSP Mode on the G68 set correctly? For example, have you been experimenting with the Meridian Room Correction function and need to re-set?

* Is the Input Mode switch on the back of the MC402 set correctly (Balanced / Unbalanced)?

* Are the 802Ds connected to the 8 ohm outputs on the MC402?

I warned you that I had no idea, but it was fun learning about your equipment, which makes mine look quite primitive.

Nigel.

Nigel,

Thanks a lot for your effort on my behalf.

It turns out I was able to solve the problem in what seems to me an unusal way. I discovered a good Meridian user forum. A lot of people with the 68 and the bigger brother 861 use Meridian's digial active speakers but those that use passive analogs (especially as clear and detailed as the 802Ds) have discovered an odd thing.

It seems that if you calibrate your speakers in the standard way to 75db, like I did at first, and it turns out your trims are in the plus region, it adds this harshness. The suggestion that I followed was to set the trim of my lowest volume speaker in the calibration test in the range of -3 to -5. Then check the db reading for that and calibrate all the other speakers to that db. It is doing the calibration backwards from what we normally do but, as long as all the speakers are calibrated to the same db it serves the same purpose.

No one seems to know for sure why this has an effect but the speculation is that the Meridian's internal protection algorithms start kicking in at some point with higher trims and this compresses the signal in some way that leads to the harshness and also affects the sound imaging. I don't really know if this makes sense but all I can tell you is that having the trims in the -3 to -5 range really does make a difference.

BTW, the Meridian is a fine piece of equipment. The clarity, detail and imaging that I get now is far beyond what I was getting with my Arcam AVP700. The room correction can be helpful too but in my case I already have 22 acoustic panels in my listening room and the RC just helps at the margin. I am a believer in acoustic treatment and I don't think that RC can substitute for that but I think the two together help you to tune in your room in an effective way.

As I think you noticed from reading through the manual, however, it is not a plug and play device by any stretch of the imagination. It has a ton of features but you have to be willing to invest a good bit of time to study the manual and the installation guide so that you can dig out the goodies. Even then a lot of stuff is just not explained and you have to rely on user groups or your local dealer (in my case, after a week of study and first hand experience, I now know more about the M than my local dealer, which says more about the dealer than my ability to absorb information ).

Regarding the MC402, I am connecting it via the 4 ohm taps. When I had my Arcam, I experimented with the 8 ohm taps but I found a dramatic improvement using the 4 ohm. With the Meridian, I left it on the 4 ohm for now but I might play around with the 8 ohm at some point to see if I still prefer the 4 ohm in the new set up.

[jack d]

I had a brief encounter (about an hour) with a Meridian CD player and pre-amplifier and processor on a pair of 802D (among others) and I don't think what you are hearing is too far fetched but harsh may be a bit extreme. I found the combination a bit clinical and slightly fatiguing but not overly aggressive.

To me Krell and Meridian are kissing cousins when it comes to the sounds they produce. Krell a bit more metalic and the Meridain a bit more sterile. To my ears they would mate better with a pair of speakers that have a more forgiving top end and are slightly more laid back. I think the somewhat bright and forward sounding B&W's do best with darker sounding electronics from the likes of McIntosh, Classe' or a tube based front end. FWIW, I experience zero fatigue with my Classe' based system.

Over on the Meridian forum, there is speculation that because the Meridian produces such a level of clarity and detail, pairing it with speakers that are known for the same thing risks getting into that harsh zone. As someone put it, it's like spice on food. It's not bad but even too much of a good thing can be a problem.

It seems that a lot of people who get an M processor either start off with the M digital active speakers or switch to them after some time. Personally, I can't imagine giving up my 802Ds. I really love them.

In any case, after having made the adjustments that I noted in my response to Nigel, I'm very happy with the SQ. I still have to live with it for a while to get a firmer impression.

Once I upgraded to the Mac amp I was considering mating it with a Mac processor but my local dealer (who sells both lines) suggested that I try the Meridian. The thing about the Meridian is that it has a ton of features that the Mac does not. And while I'm not necessarily a big bells and whistles type guy, I think that some of these features are going to be quite useful.

One thing I quite like in the short time I've had the M is all the digital signal processing modes that you can apply. In particular, I find that I prefer the "trifield" mode to plain old vanilla two channel for listening to stereo recordings. It processes the signal in a way that utilizes the center channel and to a lesser extent the rears. And it has options for adjusting the sound field (expanding it and making it deeper) which I have found are quite effective. I guess the M can do all this stuff because it has five separate processors so it has a ton of computing power.

The room correction feature can be useful too but only at the margin. I still think that it cannot substitute for acoustic treatments but it can compliment them.

I only heard the 802s and 801s with Classe equipment in two different dealer's showrooms. The 801s sounded gorgeqous but I only was able to listen for a short period. The 802s didn't impress me with the Classe set up but I am positive it is because the room set up was horrendous. It had nothing to do with the equipment.

[SRT-10 Viper]

Can you clarify?

Jack D, I have 800Ds with a Meridian G68... Can you tell me what you mean by trims? Or can you point to me where it is discussed more on Meridian HitchH*****?

I'd like to try this... Thanks! Also, a trick I learned from a guy who does the calibration for for a living and charges $1500 is to use a tube preamp (about $100 to buy the Mic and Preamp) Here is his recomendation:

If any are interested in performing RC yourselves with more reliable equipment than the RS SPL meter, you can buy the following:

Behringer MIC 100 Ultra Tube Amp
Behringer ECM8000 Mic (includes the mic clip for the tripod)
XLR-M/XLR-F cable (balanced to balanced)
XLR-F to RCA cable (balanced to unbalanced)
Mic Stand (or cheap tripod)

Enable the first two buttons and set the dials to 3 clicks from the right. I always get ~50dB SN ratio on all channels and ~40dB on the SW.
Thanks

[jack d]

Jack D, I have 800Ds with a Meridian G68... Can you tell me what you mean by trims? Or can you point to me where it is discussed more on Meridian HitchH*****?

I'd like to try this... Thanks! Also, a trick I learned from a guy who does the calibration for for a living and charges $1500 is to use a tube preamp (about $100 to buy the Mic and Preamp) Here is his recomendation:

If any are interested in performing RC yourselves with more reliable equipment than the RS SPL meter, you can buy the following:

Behringer MIC 100 Ultra Tube Amp
Behringer ECM8000 Mic (includes the mic clip for the tripod)
XLR-M/XLR-F cable (balanced to balanced)
XLR-F to RCA cable (balanced to unbalanced)
Mic Stand (or cheap tripod)

Enable the first two buttons and set the dials to 3 clicks from the right. I always get ~50dB SN ratio on all channels and ~40dB on the SW.
Thanks

I guess it is just a terminology confusion. What I mean by trims is just the volume adjustments you do when you are calibrating the speakers. As you know, the standard approach is to put your SPL meter at the listening position, run the test tone for each speaker, and then adjust the "trims" in your processor for each speaker up or down until you get to 75db on the SPL for each speaker.

The trick I learned is to set the trim on your lowest volume speaker at around -3. Check the SPL db and then adjust the trims for all the other speakers to produce the db that you got from the speaker you set at -3.

I got another interesting piece of info today while I was at my local dealer. One of the guys there has a Meridian 568 and BW 802Ns. He said that the Meridian rep told him that what you want to do with the trims is to "normalize" the trims around zero rather than make sure that they are all in the negative range. So you would do your calibration to 75db and look at the range of trim adjustments for each speaker. Then you keep the same distance between the trims on each speaker but you shift them either up or down so that they are centered around zero.

Say you just have two speakers and you calibrate them to 75db. The L trim is set at +2 and the R trim is set at +6. So what you want to do is re-set them so they are centered around zero. You would do this by changing the L trim to -2 and the R trim to +2. The guy couldn't explain technically why this improves the sound.

I haven't tried recalibrating this way as I'm getting ready to change my system with the addition of 3 Mcintosh MC501s and also I'm gonig to change the physical set up of the listening area a bit. So I will wait to do any more fiddling since I will have to re-calibrate everything with the new set up.


Anyway, here is the thread over at HH Meridian where some of the guys over there alterted me to the "negative trims" approach.

http://www.meridianunplugged.com/ubb...c;f=8;t=000086

There is no mention there of the "zero balancing" approach but I'm going to put it out on that thread shortly to see what the M veterans there think.

Regarding the tip about the mic, there is quite a bit of discussion about mics and the MRC tests over at HH. It is kind of spread around so you have to do a search for room correction and wade through the posts. In my case, the most important tip I picked up over there about the mic was that you have to point it at the corner between the ceiling and the front wall.

Once I did that the power and SN ratio stayed above the Meridian cutoff levels as each speaker was tested and thus the tests on each speaker were completed without problems.