800 Diamond series

[mpauline]

I am looking to purchase some used speakers. I am a little confused about when the different 800 diamond series were released. I am looking at some 7 month old 804D and some 803D that are three years old. The 803D's are $500 more than the 804D's. Was there an upgrade to the Diamond series or were the 804D's upgraded from 804S later in the model line. I rewrote this post but it still seems confusing. Sorry.

[stuofsci02]

The new Di series was released in Jan 2010. Before that the 800 series had some diamond speakers... Here is the change.

805s -> 805Di
804s -> 804Di
803s -> discontinued
803D -> 803Di
802D -> 802Di
801D -> discontinued
800D -> 800Di

The older 803D is not the sames as the newer 803Di. There were some changes to the drivers and crossovers.. They look the same for the mostpart however.

Cheers,

Stuart

[mpauline]

The new Di series was released in Jan 2010. Before that the 800 series had some diamond speakers... Here is the change.

805s -> 805Di
804s -> 804Di
803s -> discontinued
803D -> 803Di
802D -> 802Di
801D -> discontinued
800D -> 800Di

The older 803D is not the sames as the newer 803Di. There were some changes to the drivers and crossovers.. They look the same for the mostpart however.

Cheers,

Stuart

Would the 804Di sound superior to the 803D? Better in the highs but not as good with bass as the 803D?

[beden1]

Would the 804Di sound superior to the 803D? Better in the highs but not as good with bass as the 803D?

I have the 804Di(s) in one system and the 803D(s) in another. I love the 804Di for HT with a pair of sub woofers and prefer to listen to music through the 803D(s).

The 803D does better with a good amp with ample power (300 watts per channel IMO). The 804Di can do with less power, but IMO, an amp with at least 200 watts per channel is best.

The 804Di sounds more alive and the 803D sounds smoother in the mids and highs.

[stuofsci02]

Beden I think will have the most experience of anyone on the board with these two...

I did get a chance to audition them back to back about a year ago.. Here is what I had to say then:

"I listened to both the 804Di and 803D on the same gear within 5 min of each other and it was very interesting. This is also the same place that I auditioned my 804s (same gear too).

I found the new 804Di to be more revealing in the midrange and the tweeter is smoother as to be expected. The bass response was definately improved (I was amazed actually). The one thing I found was that they voiced the speaker so that the sound stage is deeper, but I found not quite as wide. On my 804s the midrange (vocals) really comes out into the room, where as the 804Di was not so much, but I had a better feeling of depth.. I think because it is a little more laid back the soundstage does not seem as wide. I am not really sure which one I prefer.. I am so used to the 804s that I could only say it was different.. The 804Di is clearly better then 804s, but I am not sure if I prefer the new imaging.

The funny thing is I listened to the 803D right after, and it had the same voicing as my 804s where the vocals seemed more toward the listener. Also in my limited listening to the CM7 I got yesterday I found them more forward too (like my 804s).. I wonder if B&W is changing what I have found to be a "trade mark" sound.

The 803D were definately not as revealing (on the highs) as the 804Di, but I noticed they had a superior sweet spot.. With the 804Di if I moved forward or back even just a foot, the sound changed quite dramatically. Not so with the 803D. I have to conclude that the 803D might be a little easier to place.

So here is the thing.. I am not sure which I liked better the 803D or the 804Di.. This is quite amazing since the 803D is definately better then the 804s..

Remember that I am in Canada, and pricing is typcially 15% higher here then in the US.. But here is how the pricing broke down..

They would do the 803D for $7000 CAD (MSRP was $10k and you could get it last year for about $9k before the new series).

The new 804Di is about $7700 CAD "

Since I wrote that I have treated my room (my dealers room is fully treated) and I have noticed that the imaging of my 804s has gained some depth..

Cheers,

Stuart

[mpauline]

Wow Stuart where are you getting the good discount on the B&W's. Can you pm me.

The 803D's are three years old and $5900. The 804Di's are seven months old and $5500. They will be used almost exclusively for home theater. Both are a substantial drive away from my home to audition so would like some more feedback regarding which is the better buy. I realize that ultimately only my ears can make the final decision.

Thanks,
Mark

[mpauline]

I have the 804Di(s) in one system and the 803D(s) in another. I love the 804Di for HT with a pair of sub woofers and prefer to listen to music through the 803D(s).

The 803D does better with a good amp with ample power (300 watts per channel IMO). The 804Di can do with less power, but IMO, an amp with at least 200 watts per channel is best.

The 804Di sounds more alive and the 803D sounds smoother in the mids and highs.

I will be driving them with a Rotel 1080 amp which is 200 watts per channel (20 Hz to 20 kHz @ 0.03% THD into 8 ohms). Would this suffice for the 803D?

Mark

[beden1]

I will be driving them with a Rotel 1080 amp which is 200 watts per channel (20 Hz to 20 kHz @ 0.03% THD into 8 ohms). Would this suffice for the 803D?

Mark

I have not heard either of these speakers driven with a Rotel 1080. I just read a previous review from Kal Rubinson and it would appear that the amp has enough power, even though either of these speakers would perform better with a better amp than your Rotel.

The problem with B&W speakers is having to correctly match the front end equipment (pre-amp, amp and source player). If not, then you either get a sound that is too bright and forward, or one that is lacking in clarity and detail. It would appear that the latter is what you will get with the Rotel 1080.

With B&W, the cost of the speakers is just a starting point towards having to build a very balanced system and a room with decent acoustics.

[stuofsci02]

Wow Stuart where are you getting the good discount on the B&W's. Can you pm me.

The 803D's are three years old and $5900. The 804Di's are seven months old and $5500. They will be used almost exclusively for home theater. Both are a substantial drive away from my home to audition so would like some more feedback regarding which is the better buy. I realize that ultimately only my ears can make the final decision.

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,

If you can get the 803D for $5900 and the 804Di for $5500, then you are doing better then me.. Although my price was for new (and was a year ago). My brick and mortar is Regency Audio in Markham..

Cheers

Stuart

[mpauline]

Mark,

If you can get the 803D for $5900 and the 804Di for $5500, then you are doing better then me.. Although my price was for new (and was a year ago). My brick and mortar is Regency Audio in Markham..

Cheers

Stuart

Okay Stu now you are in the hot seat. Which one would you pick for home theater and why? Keeping in mind that I cannot afford to upgrade my amp at this time. Probably will in the future.

[beden1]

Okay Stu now you are in the hot seat. Which one would you pick for home theater and why? Keeping in mind that I cannot afford to upgrade my amp at this time. Probably will in the future.

The clarity for voices is excellent through the 804Di and HTM4D speakers. That's why I really like them in my HT system. You will need to add the extra umph in HT bass with sub woofers.

[mpauline]

The clarity for voices is excellent through the 804Di and HTM4D speakers. That's why I really like them in my HT system. You will need to add the extra umph in HT bass with sub woofers.

Thank you. What center channel do you use with the 804Di?

[beden1]

Thank you. What center channel do you use with the 804Di?

HTM4D which is the matching center channel speaker for the 804Di.

It's a shame that B&W no longer makes the XT2 speakers as they are excellent surround speakers with the 804Di and HTM4D.

[mpauline]

Thanks to Beden and Stuart. Might have waited to long to buy the used 804Di. Will see if the other guy bails and if he does will pick them up.

[stuofsci02]

Okay Stu now you are in the hot seat. Which one would you pick for home theater and why? Keeping in mind that I cannot afford to upgrade my amp at this time. Probably will in the future.

To be honest.. For home theater I would not use either. IMO HT speakers do not need to be 800 series sound quality.. With the exception of the center (which must use a good design) for HT you have a ton of cheaper options..

I would consider the CMC2 and CM9 and save a ton of money. I don't think you would give up a lot compared to 804Di with HTM4Di for HT.

Even 683s make great HT speakers.. But the matching centers aren't anything to write home about.. But if you can use another 683 as a center you would have a great setup..

[mpauline]

To be honest.. For home theater I would not use either. IMO HT speakers do not need to be 800 series sound quality.. With the exception of the center (which must use a good design) for HT you have a ton of cheaper options..

I would consider the CMC2 and CM9 and save a ton of money. I don't think you would give up a lot compared to 804Di with HTM4Di for HT.

Even 683s make great HT speakers.. But the matching centers aren't anything to write home about.. But if you can use another 683 as a center you would have a great setup..

Wow I did not expect you to say that. Don't you think with the lossless codecs such as DTS-HD that the soundtracks now demand a higher performance speaker? I don't have the opportunity to demo the CM9 locally so will find somewhere to audition them.

[beden1]

To be honest.. For home theater I would not use either. IMO HT speakers do not need to be 800 series sound quality.. With the exception of the center (which must use a good design) for HT you have a ton of cheaper options..

I would consider the CMC2 and CM9 and save a ton of money. I don't think you would give up a lot compared to 804Di with HTM4Di for HT.
Even 683s make great HT speakers.. But the matching centers aren't anything to write home about.. But if you can use another 683 as a center you would have a great setup..

I don't agree with this at all, especially if you plan to upgrade your electronics down the road. Always (ALWAYS) buy the best speakers you can afford first, and then work towards building out the rest of your system.

The dynamics and clarity of the 804Di and HTM4D is spectacular for HT.

[wettou]

Always (ALWAYS) buy the best speakers you can afford first, and then work towards building out the rest of your system.

Yes, I could not agree more, budget priority should be:
- 50% on speakers and the rest broken down to
- Amps 25%
- Pre/pro 15%
- Source 7%
-Cables 3%

[SPACEMANRICK]

I don't agree with this at all, especially if you plan to upgrade your electronics down the road. Always (ALWAYS) buy the best speakers you can afford first, and then work towards building out the rest of your system.

The dynamics and clarity of the 804Di and HTM4D is spectacular for HT.

I don't know, I just "inherited" a 42" plasma for my home gym in the basement. I picked up these Athena speakers http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...0_4290crx.aspx for the TV on Craigslist yesterday for..............$30 :lol: Not as good as the B&W 802DI upstairs, but for $30 for my gym in the basement they sound pretty good.

[stuofsci02]

I don't agree with this at all, especially if you plan to upgrade your electronics down the road. Always (ALWAYS) buy the best speakers you can afford first, and then work towards building out the rest of your system.

The dynamics and clarity of the 804Di and HTM4D is spectacular for HT.

While I don't doubt the 804Di and HTM4D are spectacular for HT I am not sure of the overall value. If money is not an issue, sure..... Why not go for the better speakers??

But from my conversations with the OP previously, my understanding is that we are working within a budget. Of course some prefer to build a system over 5-10 years adding a piece here and there, but with HT you kinda need the basics... A processor/amp, a BR player, speakers, sub, TV.. Skip any of those (even the sub) and it doesn't work so well..

So IMO, as a person who started with the previous gen 600 series speakers and uses the system for both HT and music, here is what I have found...

I will skip over all the old 600 series speaker I have owned and discuss the 683, CM7 and 804s as they are current speakers (CM7 replaced with CM8 of course)...

With each of the above speakers, the big difference I have found between is openess/airyness, less cabinet colouration, tighter bass, and better highs. The qualities are extemely desirable for music as it makes instruments sound more natural, provides a better stereo image and makes the bass better.. The 683 to CM7 jump was the biggest improvement in overall sound quality.. Bass went down, but cabinet colourataion and airyness was improved big time.. The step from the CM7 to 804s was obvious as well, however the improvements were not near as large..

While these improvements I found on music would also improve HT experience, I have found that it is not near to the level that is does music. Movies are so much about Dynamics and ability to immerse you in sound that most are not paying much attention to if the tire screech sounds has slightly less colour because the speaker cabinets are better.. Or if there is slightly more airyness to the gunshots.. Or that they can place the smallest details more precisely on the soundstage.. These are all things, however, that I focus on when I am listening to music.

The one spot I feel is important (and may justify an 800 speaker), however, is the center speaker.. Here quality really is important. Clear dialog is a must.. That is why I mentioned the CMC2 which is the minimum center I would go with.. This is because it has the tweeter/midrange in a vertical arrangement.. Anything that has Mid-Tweet-Mid or variation of horizontally aligned drivers is going to have poor off axis performance.. The HTM62, HTM61 and CMC all suffer from this (I have owned the HTM61 and CMC)..

Once I got up to the HTM4s and now the HTM3s there was a massive improvement is dialog and matching to the L/R. The CMC2 is also an impressive speaker in this regard (although I have never owned one, only listened).

So while I love 800 series speaker (and they sure do look really nice), I think the improvement that they bring to HT won't justify the cost for most. Now if you place more importance on music, then throw out everything I just said.

Cheers

Stuart

P.S. If you are ever up for a drive and wanted to come to my place for a listen, just let me know.. I could set up the system the same with my 804s and CM7 and let you see if you would spend $3000 MSRP more for what the 804s bring to the table.. It might be worth it, as you are talking about a lot of money...

[mpauline]

Well the 804Di's are out because someone else bought them before I could audition them this weekend. Going to listen to the 803D's tomorrow. $5900 for three year old speakers. Then I would need to find a matching center.

[stuofsci02]

Yep.. The matching center is the HTM2D.. It will be around $3000 if/when it pops up used... I have never seen any used on Canuck Audiomart in the last 2 years..

Cheers..

Stuart

[beden1]

I don't know, I just "inherited" a 42" plasma for my home gym in the basement. I picked up these Athena speakers http://www.audioreview.com/cat/speak...0_4290crx.aspx for the TV on Craigslist yesterday for..............$30 :lol: Not as good as the B&W 802DI upstairs, but for $30 for my gym in the basement they sound pretty good.

I'm not sure how buying used speakers for $30 relates to the ongoing conversation here? But, to prove my point, I bought A/D/S 910 II studio monitor speakers in 1976-77 for about $2,500 for the pair (very expensive back in the day), and they are still my overall favorite speakers that I use in my stereo system in PA. Great speakers will always be great speakers, and IMO, are well worth the initial investment for years of enjoyment.

[mpauline]

Update. Went to listen and look at some pre-owned 803D's. Wow I love them. Three years old. A couple of scratches on them. However they are in a smokers home so I am wondering two things. First will the cigarette smoke damage the drivers. Second will they smell like smoke forever when I bring them home.

Went from that audition to a dealer suggested by Stuart and listened to CM9, 804D and 803D's. Wow is all I can say for the 803D's when listening to two channel. Bigger soundstage and nice low end. With home theater which they will get 90% of the use for I could not hear such a dramatic difference. Also listened to HTM4D which I thought had good vocal intelligibility. Price for 803D and HTM4D $11700 plus tax equals $13000 plus. Price for smokey 803D $5600. Might take up smoking depending on everyones opinion.

[stuofsci02]

Did you hang out with John?

Don't forget that Regency has the 803Di, not the 803D. I think the smokers speakers were the previous gen 803D.

Cheers.

Stuart

[mpauline]

Did you hang out with John?

Yes Stuart thanks VERY much for that suggestion. Here in Waterloo the local Brick and Mortar looks at you like you have two heads if you ask about the 800 B&W Series. They are a B&W dealer but only have 804S on display.

Your suggestion to see John was a great idea. I could actually audition all the speakers on the same amps with the same source material. These speakers are primarily for home theater but I made the mistake of listening to the 803Di's two channel first and then everything else i.e. CM9 and 804Di sounded great but not like the 803Di's. He played a japanese drum CD which almost blew me out of my seat.

Seems like the 804Di's were harder to drive than the 803Di's. He had to turn up the volume when playing them.

Now I am lusting after the 803Di's but really not so sure I need them for 90% home theater.

Yes I am aware that they were 803Di's instead of the smoker's 803D's. Do you think they are that different sounding for the price difference? That being said the smoke exposure has me somewhat concerned but maybe that is just being to paranoid.

[stuofsci02]

Mark,

Although I have been to Regency as recent as yesterday, I have not heard the new 803Di, so I cannot comment on it vs. the older 803D. Just be glad you didn't try the 802Di.. Now I know what I need next..

I assume he played everything using Chord Electronics... Please keep this in mind.. I am betting the front end was worth at least as much as the speakers.

Maybe you saw my Chord amp when you were there over powering the 683s... I am having some issues with it randomly turning off, and John is trying to duplicate the problem..

So what are you going to do????

[mpauline]

Mark,


I assume he played everything using Chord Electronics... Please keep this in mind.. I am betting the front end was worth at least as much as the speakers.

Yes he did play the two channel music through the Chord Electronics. Absolutely brilliant! The movie clips though he played through the Rotel amp and processor which will more closely mirror my Rotel equipment.

I think I will go "all in" and buy the 803Di's unless I come to my senses and save my money. Could always go for the 802Di's for $14000. No better not as I could not afford a centre channel

[stuofsci02]

If you go for the 803Di, I think you will have to start listening to music in two-channel. It would be a big waste not to.

If your focus is HT then you might reconsider the HTM4Di paired with the 803Di.. For HT your center should really be your best speaker, and the HTM4Di is not at the same level.. IMO it is even a little small for the 804Di.. In the old series there was the HTM3s which was a perfect match, but not anymore..

You might consider the 804Di with the HTM2Di over the 803Di with the HTM4Di..

But I am still not sure your motivation.. As you indicated the difference was not huge between all the speakers you listened to for HT, I am wondering about where the added value is in the ~$13k 803Di setup...

Also, you have not mentioned your room size which should be as much a consideration as anything..

Cheers..

Stuart

[beden1]

I actually love the HTM4D and feel it is a great match with the 804Di(s). It definitely holds it's own, and I have never felt that it was a mismatch whatsoever.

I would get the HTM2Di to go with the 803Di(s), as my HTM2D is also a great match with my 803Ds.

IMO, the 802Di(s) and 800Di(s) are the ones that now don't have a good matching center channel speaker.

Match the hatch!

[stuofsci02]

I actually love the HTM4D and feel it is a great match with the 804Di(s). It definitely holds it's own, and I have never felt that it was a mismatch whatsoever.

I would get the HTM2Di to go with the 803Di(s), as my HTM2D is also a great match with my 803Ds.

IMO, the 802Di(s) and 800Di(s) are the ones that now don't have a good matching center channel speaker.

Match the hatch!

Yeah.. I don't think the HTM4Di + 804Di is a bad match at all (especially if HT is secondard).. But if HT is the priority, it could certainly be better...

I used to have the HTM4s with my 804s and there wasn't really much wrong with it, until I got my HTM3s.. There was definate gains with the HTM3s. I think the same is true with the Di series as well... I know B&W indicates now that the HTM4Di is a match to the 804Di, but I think it is more from a lack of other options..

[beden1]

There are a number of considerations that you need to think about when deciding between say the 803Di and the 803D. The 803Di is more lively and revealing than is the 803D. The 803Di will render the modern digital recordings bare naked that are already largely recorded lively and bright. This will be accentuated by less than excellent electronics, and where you will find that many recordings will be hard to enjoy because their recordings suck.

You listened to these speakers at the dealer that probably had very good acoustics in their listening room. If your room does not have the same ideal acoustics, and is also lively and bright, then you may get the speakers home and think you made a big mistake.

If your listening room is full of upholstered furniture, drapes and rugs, then you may need a speaker that is more lively in order to get a sound that is alive. The 803Di may be the best bet in this scenario.

The room where I have my classe electronics and 803D speakers is very large (36' by 18' with 24' ceilings). It has lively acoustics, and there is not much more that I can do about it, other than I have already done due to my wife and the layout. In my case, the 803Ds work extremely well in this room for both HT and music listening. IMO, the 803Di(s) would be too lively and would make my ears bleed.

You need to decide what is best for you today and in the long run.

[SPACEMANRICK]

I'm not sure how buying used speakers for $30 relates to the ongoing conversation here? But, to prove my point, I bought A/D/S 910 II studio monitor speakers in 1976-77 for about $2,500 for the pair (very expensive back in the day), and they are still my overall favorite speakers that I use in my stereo system in PA. Great speakers will always be great speakers, and IMO, are well worth the initial investment for years of enjoyment.

It was more tongue in cheek than anything else but I was also indicating that in my humble opinion the quality of speakers is not quite as important in a home theater multiple speaker setting as opposed to just 2 channel......

[Mark_NZ]

Difficult decisions Mark - here is my view based on experience from upgrading separate music and home theatre (HT) systems over a number of years.

Frankly the 800 Diamond series is over kill for a dedicated HT. I have downgraded my HT loudspeakers to B&W CM1 speakers – and with a cheap decent subwoofer, they are just enjoyable and immersive as my previous floor-stander speakers that were valued (and sounded) at 4x the price. They are driven by a modest Marantz SR6005 AV Receiver.
I agree with Stuart's sentiments for the center loudspeaker - buy the best with vertical array of drivers or don't bother. (I currently don't bother with a center because I have relatively small HT room - but I will likely consider a dedicated CM1 as a center in future.)

However for the dedicated music listener the 800 series is worth the cutting down on every other material pleasure to save up the additional cash. I prefer the 803D/Di to 804S/Di due to better balanced bass weight. But I do like the 804S/Di discreet dimensions which are visually less intrusive. I concur with Beden's opinion of 803D vs 803Di - the 803Di is a bit brighter and more transparent - and will be less tolerant of lesser quality gear or recordings. It will require more careful matching from front-end gear (e.g. gear that is a bit more warmly voiced than strictly neutral) to ensure balanced sound in un-damped room. On other hand the 803Di has marginally improved timing from slightly more agile and tighter bass.
The 803D (and more recently the 803Di) remains one of my favorite music loudspeakers.

If you planning a combined HT and music system, then a 805Di or 804Di with HTM4Di and modest, but decent subwoofer, may be all you ever need.

[mpauline]

Yes I think that the 804Di or CM9 and matching centers make the most sense for my application. Really though I was absolutely blown away by the 803Di. Made me want to start listening to more two channel.

Last night my ASW 2000 (B&W Subwoofer) started to horribly distort. Looked at the front driver cone and it is torn. Arghhh! Maybe it is divine intervention telling me to buy the 803Di's and abandon my sub .

[madmac]

Torn sub driver??......Sad!!. How in hell's bells did that happen?.

My 2 cents is that a good speaker is a good speaker and will sound good whether it's for HT or for music. Save money and buy the best speakers you can afford and use them for both music and HT.

[jeepers]

+1...

[mpauline]

Torn sub driver??......Sad!!. How in hell's bells did that happen?.

My 2 cents is that a good speaker is a good speaker and will sound good whether it's for HT or for music. Save money and buy the best speakers you can afford and use them for both music and HT.

I agree totally. I am now going to listen to the 802Di's to see if the jump from an 803Di is worth it. If I did that I would have to go without a center and do the phantom thing.

As for the sub I don't know what happened. I will lug the behemoth into the service center. Probably not worth fixing but will see what they say. Damn "Rise of the Planet of the Apes" finished off my sub. It has been really getting a workout since I switched to using my Oppo 95 to feed it HD lossless codecs.

[stuofsci02]

Torn sub driver??......Sad!!. How in hell's bells did that happen?.

My 2 cents is that a good speaker is a good speaker and will sound good whether it's for HT or for music. Save money and buy the best speakers you can afford and use them for both music and HT.

I am not sure what that means "save money and buy the best speakers you can afford". If you are saving money then everyone should have the best speaker out there.. Or is there some time limit on the length of time one should save? Should I save for 10 years to get 800Di?

The OP has stated that he wants to use this for HT.. I think a lot of us "stereo music" guys get caught up in knowing what a better speaker will do for music, and applying the same value criteria to HT..

If the OP wants 800 series, then that is one thing, but it is certainly not a requirement for exellent HT.. If the budget is $12k for everthing, then $12k mains would not be the best selection IMO, unless this was just the tip of the iceberg and the OP understands that the rest of the system is now going to cost big money.. The law of diminishing returns is even steeper for HT because even a mediocre stereo speaker can sound quite good..

[mpauline]

Yes my budget seems to keep creeping up on this quest to improve my home theater. I really only at this point want to spend a maximum of $15000. For my ears the 803Di's were significantly better than the 804Di's and the CM9. Not sure that the HTM4Di is the center I want after owning the HTM1 however the HTM2Di is out of my budget. Could go with 802Di's but that would mean no center and a big investment later to find a center and new amps. Last option is return to Regency Audio and listen to all of them again with strictly movie tracks and go from there.

[stuofsci02]

Mark,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Go and listen to them all the way you intend to use them and then decide based on your ears..

Cheers!

[madmac]

Yes my budget seems to keep creeping up on this quest to improve my home theater. I really only at this point want to spend a maximum of $15000. For my ears the 803Di's were significantly better than the 804Di's and the CM9. Not sure that the HTM4Di is the center I want after owning the HTM1 however the HTM2Di is out of my budget. Could go with 802Di's but that would mean no center and a big investment later to find a center and new amps. Last option is return to Regency Audio and listen to all of them again with strictly movie tracks and go from there.

Don't even THINK about running a HT without a center channel speaker!!. 8O It won't work well at all. Used to be ok in the old pro-logic days but not anymore with dedicated DD, DTS etc.

[mpauline]

Don't even THINK about running a HT without a center channel speaker!!. 8O It won't work well at all. Used to be ok in the old pro-logic days but not anymore with dedicated DD, DTS etc.

Yes you are right. Need to forget about that option as it brings a great deal of upgrade cost after the fact. The 803Di are still within my budget.

[mpauline]

Torn sub driver??......Sad!!. How in hell's bells did that happen?.

My 2 cents is that a good speaker is a good speaker and will sound good whether it's for HT or for music. Save money and buy the best speakers you can afford and use them for both music and HT.

Madmac I think that it was just age. This sub is 10 years old. Decided to fix myself. Just ordered the driver from B&W North America for $150. With taxes, shipping, and exchange should come in at about $225. Better than buying a new sub at this point.

[londoner]

Don't even THINK about running a HT without a center channel speaker!!. 8O It won't work well at all. Used to be ok in the old pro-logic days but not anymore with dedicated DD, DTS etc.

I think that depends on the scale of your room and where you'll be sitting. I have 804Ds either side of my display and I couldn't be more pleased for both music and movies. I personally prefer the phantom center compared to vocals coming from below the screen and it's less clutter in a smallish room.