help choosing B&W speakers.

[longgone]

Hi. I just found this forum and I like it. I could use a little help choosing some B & W speakers for 2 channel music.

I have McIntosh 1.2 kw mono blocks. The wall that the speakers and amps will be on is 18'. One side wall is 24' and the other side wall is 11'. The wall opposite the speakers is 22'.

This is a condo and I listen to Blues, jazz, classical, rock, FM, CD, vinyl.

At a dealer's showroom, over two days listening to B&W speakers (new), I came to enjoy the 802 Diamond's the most. I am not fully educated to the B&W lineup. Did I overlook a speaker as I quickly became mesmerized by the looks and sound of the 802 Diamond's? I did not see any 800.

And how should the speakers be placed on that 18' wall?

[Pedro]

Hi

May we know your previous speakers? We could help you what speakers you should pick based from what you owned before, and if possible telling why you decided to upgrade.

You have an excellent gear probably one of the best ever :T

[Rod#S]

Wow, the 1.2 kw mono blocks, those are some serious amps. As a 802 Diamond owner myself, I absolutely love them and do not regret my purchase and they have exceeded my expectations. I rank them in the top 3 home theater purchases I have ever made. Seeing as you will be using the speakers in a 2 channel environment and have a large roon with huge reserves of power on tap with those 1.2 kw's, if it were me I would go for the 800 Diamonds without hesitation.

Read through the threads here on the forums, those who have had or listened to the 802 and 800 Diamonds say there is a noticeable difference in sound between the 2 from the bass on up through the mids and a lot of people are getting the 800s over the 802s.

As for speaker placement, how far are you currently setting from your speakers, how far are the speakers from the back and side walls and how far apart are your speakers?

Rod

[longgone]

hi Pedro... I have some Lynn Keilidh's. They are nice speakers. They will be fine for a 2nd system in another room.

The tuner is a McIntosh MR78. The cd is a McIntosh MCD500. The preamp is a McIntosh C27.

I have been listening to the Lynn's for 15 years and they are nice but I thought it would also be nice to have some new speakers. The 802 Diamonds caught my eye and they sound really good, too.

Maybe the 802's aren't the right choice for my room but I think something B&W Diamond would be an upgrade to the Lynn's. I'm almost finished redoing the room. I have new dedicated 20 amp circuits and paint, etc.

[longgone]

Hi Rod... hmmm... 800 Diamond - eh? Yes, that would be nice. I like the mono blocks for sure. I went to the mono blocks from a McIntosh 2205. I still have the 2205 and it's a beauty, too.

My current speakers are on the 18' wall. The front of the speakers are 2' out from the wall and centered 8' apart on the 18' wall. The speakers are about 4' from the side walls.

Usual sitting is 8' - 14' in front of the speakers.

[Rod#S]

Your sitting distance seems more than adequate as does the distance between the speakers. There may be a bit to gain by moving a bit further from the side walls but 4' is quite good. One thing I would look into is moving your speakers further out from the back wall to give more air behind. With up to 14' to the sitting position it sounds like you would have a good deal of space to play with providing there isn't something out in the middle of the room limiting pulling the speakers forward. If there are limiting factors in the room that may very well play a role in determining if there will be a nice gain in performance by going with the 800 over the 802. But given the equipment you will be using with the speakers coupled with the fact it is a 2 channel system it would be the 800 I would look to first and then the 802 if the 800 doesn't seem doeable. Heck, the 802 isn't a bad runner up to the 800

Hopefully others can chime in and give their impressions on how much space the 800s need to really shine.

Rod

[Pedro]

Yes as said above you would need to further them as 2' is very short, they need at least 1-1,5 meter IMO.

For the speakers, I thought here and found your area good for only stereo auditions with the 800Di (I think around 35sqm right?). Seems your room is a bit irregular but wont affect the sound if you make the correct placement for them. Based in your previous speaker an upgrade to 800Di would be very definitive, as you would enjoy 100% of your amps. As well the 802Di would be a huge step from your old Linn which I´ve checked in the www and I wonder why did they need such amount of power of these heavy amps as according to the specs they could be ran by smaller gears in my concept...

[longgone]

hi guys... I had the Lynn speakers before the mono blocks and only now am I looking to replace the speakers. Patiently trying to improve the experience.

The speakers can be moved a bit from the back wall.

I'm getting an impression that to optimize performance, the 800 requires more space than the 802 Diamond? Would that be similar for the 802 Diamond compared to an 803 Diamond?

[Pedro]

Yep, the footprint of 802Di is larger than 803Di. But as said for your room you would not have problem even with 800Di IMO.

Just to know, what electronics were you driving your old Lynns?

[longgone]

Pedro... I have had the Lynn speakers for 16 years along with a McIntosh 2205 amp, a McIntosh MR78 tuner and a McIntosh C27 pre amp. The amp is 200 watts per channel. I still have it and it is very nice. The tuner is very, very nice and the pre amp is same.

I added the MCD500 cd player and the 1.2 kw mono blocks a couple of years ago. All the time I have used the Lynn speakers.

The Lynn speakers are good. They are in great shape and sound fine. I'm now thinking about a speaker upgrade.

[Pedro]

very cool that´s the way to go. Your gain even going to 802Di will be outstanding but if you can stick with the 800Di you wont be disappointed as your actual gear can load perfectly the 800Di. Also being very demanding speakers, they could leave opened an oportunity to you upgrade your MC stuff in the future, but for what you have now you wouldnt miss anything at least a second to none sound!!

[Grasynoll]

McIntosh 1.2's The lord and giver of life

[longgone]

... they're heavy, mon! 150 lbs each. It's cool, too, when at night if you want to turn the blue meter lights off, you can. Then only the lettering is lit up. Nice to be able to change the lighting. Now, if I can just get a nice pair of speakers to go with them...

[longgone]

is there such a thing as a room size recommendation for the 800, 802 Diamonds?

[Rod#S]

I don't think you'll find any concensus in room size. If you look through the pictures thread you will see an astonishing variation of room sizes where 802 and 800 Diamonds reside. You will also see many rooms housing 803 or 804 Diamonds in which those rooms are larger than the rooms housing the 802 and 800s. I find the room size is sort of like the how many watts do I need question as that too varies considerably.

Rod

[htsteve]

I don't think you'll find any concensus in room size. If you look through the pictures thread you will see an astonishing variation of room sizes where 802 and 800 Diamonds reside. You will also see many rooms housing 803 or 804 Diamonds in which those rooms are larger than the rooms housing the 802 and 800s. I find the room size is sort of like the how many watts do I need question as that too varies considerably.

Rod

Very well said.

I have an 11 X 16 room. Not very big. But I have 802D's in them. Sounds awesome, especially after acoustic treaments.

[Pedro]

Well said friend Rod. I think it´s also a matter of taste, and the amplification as you pointed.

I have been using the 801D for some time in a 40sqm area driving them with 200wrms amps. I can say, never felt any problem with the room which actually is irregular. Increasing the amps, yes I would need more room treatment and especially a GREAT accoustic room which i am about to build (37sqm) with right sizes as sometimes the measures of width, height and length can be more important. Also, the music taste has a lot do here. If you like heavy music, rock or something like that, increasing your room size so much you will have to use more sub(s) coz these types of songs demands bass.

[longgone]

I listened to Duke Robillard and Ronnie Earl, "the Duke meets the Earl" CD, over and over, over two consecutive days, on McIntosh and B&W Diamond speakers (I can't remember all the models but they were all floor standing speakers - one pair was the 803 Diamond, I'm pretty certain) but when I got on the 802 Diamond I kinda got stuck there. They didn't have an 800 Diamond for demo. I guess I better check that out.

This is a cool forum.

[longgone]

... with regards to room size, I thought it better to ask if there are any room size recommendations and I'm glad I asked. I was thinking that the 802 Diamond would sound real good at my place... now an 800 Diamond has entered the picture. I hadn't thought about an 800 Diamond but now I am. B&W should include some vitamin D with the speakers to supplement the the folks who stop getting out once they get their B&W's set up! heh heh. It must be a challenge to leave your sound systems sometimes? I was also thinking that any room that the B&W's were playing in would have to have some pretty extreme characteristics for the speakers to sound not great.

[Rod#S]

I listened to Duke Robillard and Ronnie Earl, "the Duke meets the Earl" CD, over and over, over two consecutive days, on McIntosh and B&W Diamond speakers (I can't remember all the models but they were all floor standing speakers - one pair was the 803 Diamond, I'm pretty certain) but when I got on the 802 Diamond I kinda got stuck there. They didn't have an 800 Diamond for demo. I guess I better check that out.

This is a cool forum.

Indeed, if you in any way have an opportunity of getting a demo of the 800 definitely do it. You seem to have been very impressed with the 802 so with the 800 you basically get the same looking speaker (unlike the 803 and 804 because those are different designs), it is a larger cabinet but the design and shape are the same with the benefit of it sounding better. The only real noticeable difference in appearance is the plynth, it's quite a bit larger on the 800 compared to the 802, it's also a different shape. I kind of like the shape of the plynth of the 802 because it's less obtrusive and makes the speaker a bit easier to place in extremely tight places.

For me persoanlly if money wasn't an object I would have gotten the 800s for the mains instead of the 802s, why not right But as I am systematically replacing my older speakers with the B&W's and it's a home theater environment, I have 7 speakers to get (now 4), not just 2 so throwing the 800s into the mix (with the additional 10K more or less over the 802s) just would take me a ridiculously long time to get all of the speakers and jeopardize my ability to have the flexibility along the way to get a new SSP and additional sub(s) which I want to do.

In my dream B&W world I would have:

800 Diamond - front left/right
800 Diamond - center
802 Diamond - side surround left/right
802 Diamond - rear surround left/right
800 Diamond or 802 Diamond - wide left/right

All speakers would be bi-amped with Bryston 28B-SST Squared for the 800s and Bryston 7B-SST Squared for the 802s.

For subs I would have 4 Paradigm Signature Sub2's.

[longgone]

Rod#S... your B&W dream world would look and sound mighty fine. The 800's and the 802's with the grills on and in piano black remind me of religious figures standing still, listening to the sounds. With the mid grill off they remind me of an alien gazing at our world.

The plynth on the 800 Diamond is a shift away from the 802 Diamond, isn't it?! I can see where placement could be an issue. Is it supposed to make a sonic difference? Maybe it forces one to close their eyes and thereby heighten their audio sense and thus experience the 800's that much more? heh heh... I would love to have either speaker!

A lot of B&W folks like the Bryston gear with their B&W's - eh? Good combo!

[Rod#S]

Not sure of the design decision for the 2 styles of plynth's. Perhaps it is just a way to differentiate the flagship model from the others, in this case just the 802 but in the previous series, the 'D', both the 801D and 802D had the same style of plynth that matched the speaker's body shape. I highly doubt the style/design of the plynth has any impact on the sound, now what is housed in the plynth does make a noticeable difference, the crossovers. The components making up the crossover in the 800 are better than those in the 802.

I think the B&W and Bryston make a spectacular combo and others here on the forum also use Bryston but I think the most popular pairing are with McIntosh and Classe. What I want from a speaker and amp is to get as close to the original source recording as possible and I find the extreme neutrality of the Bryston's coupled with the clarity of the Diamond series gives me what I want. I know this would not be to everyone's taste and may be considered too analytical in nature or sterile for many. I read a lot of people like a "warm" sound and that concept sends shivers up my spine because to me that says people want an alterered sound, a sound a particular maunfacturer is infusing into the source so you aren't so much hearing an exact (or as close as possible) replica of the source but an interpretation of the source. Maybe my choice comes from me being a musician, when I play guitar I want to be creating the music/sound so I use whatever amp, guitar, effects processor, etc. I want to produce what I hear in my head but when I listen to music etc. I want to hear what the creator wanted me to hear.

[Kal Rubinson]

Rod#S... your B&W dream world would look and sound mighty fine. The 800's and the 802's with the grills on and in piano black remind me of religious figures standing still, listening to the sounds. With the mid grill off they remind me of an alien gazing at our world.

The plynth on the 800 Diamond is a shift away from the 802 Diamond, isn't it?! I can see where placement could be an issue. Is it supposed to make a sonic difference? Maybe it forces one to close their eyes and thereby heighten their audio sense and thus experience the 800's that much more? heh heh... I would love to have either speaker!

A lot of B&W folks like the Bryston gear with their B&W's - eh? Good combo!

AFAIK, the square base appeared in the 800 Signatures. Frankly, although it is large and has sharp edges, with the use of the brushed aluminum finish on the base and the supporting cylinders, this base allows the 800Diamond cabinet seem to float in space rather than appear anchored to a large, dark base.

[Rod#S]

It does seem to do that now that you point it out. In my ideal world I would have the shape of the 802 plynth with the aluminum finish of the 800 for both the 800 and 802.

[longgone]

hey Rod#S... I pretty much agree with you about the look design of the 800, 802 Diamond plynths. But then again, either one could be more appealing than the other, depending on the room. Sorta gives you pause to think about what the next generation will look like.

The magnet system for the grills is pretty clever and cool. Does the 800 have the magnetic grills?

My intro to McIntosh began in the early 70's. A buddy had McIntosh and I had Marantz. His gear was indelible. I can still picture it the first time I saw it. In 1995 I bought my first McIntosh gear; McIntosh C27 preamp and a McIntosh 2205 amp (200 watts per) with the Lynn speakers, for $3000.00. They were all excellent and I bought a beautiful McIntosh MR78 tuner the following year. They have been professionally maintained and I enjoy them all these years until a couple of years ago when I poked my nose into the current gear in the audio world. YOW!!!

I was curious and thinking about a preamp but I bought a 600 watt per channel McIntosh amp instead. It was nice but simultaneously those 1.2's were eating my heart out. Damn the torpedos! I went to the 1.2's.

I'm real happy with the amps and I don't really need a preamp yet.

I wasn't too educated about Classe, Bryston and other brands, and my McIntosh all matched and it sounds very nice to me. A couple of miles from me is a relaxed local high end audio shop where audio heads are always popping in to yak and listen to the cool, interesting, exotic and not so exotic gear. There is a lot of gear around and it is sure nice to listen to different setups and chat with all kinds of people.

The fella who owns the shop was over to England last week and he was a guest of Naim. Yesterday we were hearing about the trip and lots of Naim gear stories. Great time.

I like live music, too.

[Rod#S]

Yep, all of the new Diamond series speakers have the magnets. I also agree, that was a clever design.

The McIntosh and Classe products, at least the Delta series Classe products all look so cool. Bryston made a change a few years ago when they introduced the 'C' series face plates which took them away from their pro audio look to more of a modern home theater look which I liked very much but still even the 'C' series has nothing on those McIntosh and Classe designs though. I also like the blue LED and backlighting of both the Classe and McIntosh a lot.

With those 1.2s you have pretty much guaranteed you will never need another pair of amps for your main speakers, ever. That's like me getting 2 28B-SST Squared amps which put out around 1300 watts. I would see no reason to upgrade beyond that. You can certainly pay more for products like the Classe Omega, Halcro dm78 or dm88, Boulder amps, Mark Levinson No53 and add more power like the McIntosh 2Ks but with products like the 1.2s and 28B-SST squared on the market they would leave few wanting more I suspect.

[aarsoe]

The reason for the plint of the 800 is based on the crossover being bigger compared to the 802. You could fit the 800 crossover in the foot of the 802 but it would be a tight fit.
However I have always wondered why B&W did not use Mundorff foil inductors in the 800. You actually have the space to do it and foil inductors sound so much better in my opinion.

[longgone]

Hi Rod#S, I know that lots of people frequently switch gear... for lots of reasons. There surely is a lot of gorgeous outstanding amps and gear out there. The internet is great for getting to see some of it. I don't know if there is an end to the quest for audio gear? Isn't it great?! But I think I'll have these amps for a long, long time.

It would be nice to find the same experience with the speakers.

It sure is fun to look at other audio gear, 'though. You mentioned the McIntosh 2k amp... the lighted planet on the face plates is pretty slick.

... and aarsoe, thank you for the info re: plynths. I suppose the B&W people have their reasons for using certain components. Would you be inclined to swap the inductors on a new pair of 800 Diamonds?

[jericho]

I have also 1.2Kw from McIntosh. I'm using 800D as front speaker, 802D as surround with McIntosh 501 amps, is the right fit, don't use the 1.2kw with 802D because the output (high levels) of the 1.2kw will damage the woofers.

Regards

Rudi

[longgone]

whoa jericho, that is big info. Thanks. Nice gear you have.

[Rod#S]

Hi Rod#S, I know that lots of people frequently switch gear... for lots of reasons. There surely is a lot of gorgeous outstanding amps and gear out there. The internet is great for getting to see some of it. I don't know if there is an end to the quest for audio gear? Isn't it great?! But I think I'll have these amps for a long, long time.
...

Yeah, that's a good point. I was looking at things in too narrow of a view only thinking about power and not taking into account things like cosmetics and tonality which are 2 things people certainly change out gear for.

[Rod#S]

I have also 1.2Kw from McIntosh. I'm using 800D as front speaker, 802D as surround with McIntosh 501 amps, is the right fit, don't use the 1.2kw with 802D because the output (high levels) of the 1.2kw will damage the woofers.

Regards

Rudi

I don't suppose you have some pictures to share with us of your HT setup? I wouldn't mind getting a look at the room and see how you have your 802D's positioned. Are you still running 803Ds for rears and what was it something like 5 subs (2 x DB1, 2 x ASW855 and a ASW825)? I am curious how you have your 803Ds positioned as well, I'm just wondering how far away they and the 802Ds are from your sitting position.

Thanks,

Rod

[wadeh911]

Can't thank you guys enough for the good reading on these B&W threads. In process of buying pair of used 803 Diamonds on Audiogon but only interested if they are current Diamond model. Wondering if the serial numbers will tell me? The seller says pair has Diamond drivers but whose to know until they are delivered and set up?

[emig5m]

Can't thank you guys enough for the good reading on these B&W threads. In process of buying pair of used 803 Diamonds on Audiogon but only interested if they are current Diamond model. Wondering if the serial numbers will tell me? The seller says pair has Diamond drivers but whose to know until they are delivered and set up?

Diamonds have chrome/silver rings around the drivers and bass port and the older D's don't. Give us the link and we'll tell ya...

[Pedro]

Yeah, and magnetic grills, which is much more better

[stuofsci02]

Yep.. And they say Bower and Wilkins instead of B&W. They also have different binding posts, but they are hard to describe vs the old ones..

[Kal Rubinson]

Yep.. And they say Bower and Wilkins instead of B&W. They also have different binding posts, but they are hard to describe vs the old ones..

White van alert! Real ones say Bowers and Wilkins. :W