What would you build for 5000?

[RebelMan]

If you had 5000 (domestic currency) to spend on a new B&W speaker system what would you assemble? Assume you spend half your time listening to music and the other half watching movies. Assume you already have all the necessary ancillaries to support such a system and the space to install it. You may consider in-walls, on-walls, off-walls or any combination of the three for your configuration. You may also consider any combination of channels and any type of speaker(s) from any current lineup that B&W offers; mix and match if you want to. Assume your first priority is to get the best bang for your buck and that all other priorities are secondary such as domestic constraints and aesthetics. If you come up with more than one system from which to choose use your secondary priorities to limit your choice to just one configuration. Thanks.

[Miketr75]

new or used B&W speakers and audio system ?

[RebelMan]

duplicate post

[RebelMan]

I indicated new (because it would be easier to source) but if it could be readily fashioned from the second hand market (aka used) then that is fine too. Note the 5000 is for speakers only.

[Briz vegas]

Firstly you should spend more time listening to music. There just aren't that many good movies out there to spend 1/2 your time watching them. Music you can enjoy again and again, not movies. Then there is the issue of sound in movies, it isn't as important as music in stereo. This probably reflects my disappointment in movies in the past couple of years and the realisation that most of the movies I enjoy are not of the blockbuster variety.

I would say 805di or N802, the later if you must watch all those movies or have a bigger room. In fact I would need to do a direct comparison of the two to decide which has the best compromises.

[RebelMan]

I would say 805di or N802,...

This is why I posed the question, to see what others would do given the set of circumstances I outlined. Thanks for the feedback Briz.

This is no trivial pursuit. I have seen the gamut run both up and down the track which led me here to ponder the question. I value the responses.

I don't want to taint peoples thoughts by providing suggestions to follow or for use as a guide so it may seem a bit vague where this is all going. For the time being I am asking for a little indulgence.

[aarsoe]

U want two channel or multi channel for that 5k?

Since 5k goes a lot further in the US my two channel bid is a "guestimate" as I am not that strong on price levels..
But if space allows for it I would try to get the N801... Used of course.
Alternative route would be a nice sub like the 825 and a couple of 805's - again used.
Or get the latest PM1 and a good sub to match.. New..

[btf1980]

If you had 5000 (domestic currency) to spend on a new B&W speaker system what would you assemble? Assume you spend half your time listening to music and the other half watching movies. Assume you already have all the necessary ancillaries to support such a system and the space to install it. You may consider in-walls, on-walls, off-walls or any combination of the three for your configuration. You may also consider any combination of channels and any type of speaker(s) from any current lineup that B&W offers; mix and match if you want to. Assume your first priority is to get the best bang for your buck and that all other priorities are secondary such as domestic constraints and aesthetics. If you come up with more than one system from which to choose use your secondary priorities to limit your choice to just one configuration. Thanks.

I thought about the 805Di, but that is no bang for the buck because without stands, they are already $5k. The stands bring the price well over the proposed budget.

At $3k, I would say the CM9 would fit that budget quite nicely. With the left over 2 grand, you could put that towards sources and cabling.

[beden1]

Interesting situation, but for a $5,000 budget, my initial response is that it can't be done with B&W speakers. I say this with your listening experience in mind, and culminating with a system that includes 800D L/R main speakers.

I am also not real knowledgable of the pricing of B&W's lower end speakers, but, building one system for both HT and stereo would normally consist of a pair of front main speakers, a center channel speaker, a pair of surround speakers, and most likely a sub woofer or two. Without including the price of the sub woofer, that leaves you with a budget of $1,000 per speaker including sales tax.

Possibly B&W is launching a front stage center surround type speaker that I have not heard about? That, and a sub woofer could possibly fit the requirements, especially if the new multidimensional audio technology being developed by SRS CircleCinema 3D becomes a reality that I read about in an article entitled SRS & The Future of Surround in the August 2011 edition of Home Theater.

Budgeting for a system for both HT and stereo has been the problem since the beginning of surround sound. Instead of getting the best pair of speakers that one can afford for stereo, you now have to compromise further and spread your budget over 5 or more speakers. Plus, the five speakers are supposed to blend well together in their sound signature.

You included the stipulation of considering only B&W speakers, but I'm not sure this is where you would find the "best bang-for-the-buck" with a $5,000 budget.

[RebelMan]

U want two channel or multi channel for that 5k?

I would want the best bang for the buck configuration that YOU can think of that would meet the criteria of 50% music and 50% movies. If that means a 2.0 or 2.1 or 4.0 or 5.1 or 7.1 (or you name it) system to YOU then sobeit.

Since 5k goes a lot further in the US my two channel bid is a "guestimate" as I am not that strong on price levels..
But if space allows for it I would try to get the N801... Used of course.
Alternative route would be a nice sub like the 825 and a couple of 805's - again used.
Or get the latest PM1 and a good sub to match.. New..

Thanks but I need you to pick just one. Which one would you recommend? The $5K is not a concrete number. You don't have to spend the whole lot if you can build the system for less. It just can't be more than that. However, I will allow for discounts if they are applicable in your area to maximize your spending dollars. Again the $5K would be in your domestic currency (to simplify math matters).

[RebelMan]

I thought about the 805Di, but that is no bang for the buck because without stands, they are already $5k. The stands bring the price well over the proposed budget.

At $3k, I would say the CM9 would fit that budget quite nicely. With the left over 2 grand, you could put that towards sources and cabling.

The 805D2 could work if you factor in a typical 10-15% discount so it is still a worthwhile suggestion. The CM9 would fit the financial bill better though. So which do you stand by?

Don't forget one of the assumptions is you already have the equipment to drive the speakers with.

[RebelMan]

Interesting situation, but for a $5,000 budget, my initial response is that it can't be done with B&W speakers. I say this with your listening experience in mind, and culminating with a system that includes 800D L/R main speakers.

Ahhh, so there you have it! But I say why not? I am not interested in a balanced system that we typically succumb to. I am interested in b&^%s to the wall kick arse system for the money. Remember the assumptions. If in this hypothetical world your engine is a $1K AVR then the 800D may not suffice as well as say a $10K pre-amp/pow-amp combo and say a pair of CM5.

Think of it like you want to stuff an LSA engine into a 5th generation Civic.

I am also not real knowledgable of the pricing of B&W's lower end speakers, but, building one system for both HT and stereo would normally consist of a pair of front main speakers, a center channel speaker, a pair of surround speakers, and most likely a sub woofer or two. Without including the price of the sub woofer, that leaves you with a budget of $1,000 per speaker including sales tax.

Not sure which speaks you have in mind.

Possibly B&W is launching a front stage center surround type speaker that I have not heard about? That, and a sub woofer could possibly fit the requirements, especially if the new multidimensional audio technology being developed by SRS CircleCinema 3D becomes a reality that I read about in an article entitled SRS & The Future of Surround in the August 2011 edition of Home Theater.

They are coming out (soon) with a refresh to well know product but its more evolutionary.

Budgeting for a system for both HT and stereo has been the problem since the beginning of surround sound. Instead of getting the best pair of speakers that one can afford for stereo, you now have to compromise further and spread your budget over 5 or more speakers. Plus, the five speakers are supposed to blend well together in their sound signature.

Agreed, but compromises on every level will be present for 99% of the situations. Maybe some out of the box thinking is required to meet these goals I have outlined?

You included the stipulation of considering only B&W speakers, but I'm not sure this is where you would find the "best bang-for-the-buck" with a $5,000 budget.

Not so sure, my thinking here is rather radical. We've seen people start with an entry level system and over the years ratchet all the way up to the top of the line only to come back down to earth. Regardless of why this occurs the point is it does. What's interesting is the level of satisfaction in the end is no different. Furthermore, we have witnessed people claim rather outlandish observations that intuitively seem out of whack. But are they really? And why is it that some people may rave about a set of B&W speakers while others are left equally wanting? I understand what the obvious reasons could be but maybe there's more to it than that. Maybe it's that a "balanced" system isn't the way to go after all.

[bigburner]

Could someone please remind me how much a pair of second hand 803Ds costs in the US? If you could buy a pair for $5k and you already owned a grunty amp to drive them you would be making a great start for your available budget. In time it wouldn't cost that much more to buy an excellent sub and then you'd really be away!

Nigel.

[beden1]

Not so sure, my thinking here is rather radical. We've seen people start with an entry level system and over the years ratchet all the way up to the top of the line only to come back down to earth. Regardless of why this occurs the point is it does. What's interesting is the level of satisfaction in the end is no different. Furthermore, we have witnessed people claim rather outlandish observations that intuitively seem out of whack. But are they really? And why is it that some people may rave about a set of B&W speakers while others are left equally wanting? I understand what the obvious reasons could be but maybe there's more to it than that. Maybe it's that a "balanced" system isn't the way to go after all.

What you say is true, and I think the main problem lies in trying to put together a system that is satisfying for both HT and stereo.

I just put together a new HT system which I listed in my profile. I am most pleased with this system right out-of-the-box because it is very balanced and it actually fuctions together very well. But for music listening, I prefer my stereo system that I set up in the basement because of my 30+ year old ADS 910 speakers, or, I prefer my FL system because of the Classe equipment and anchored by the 803Ds (also the listening room).

Listening to my ADS 910s again just for music for the past year, I am coming to the realization that speaker manufacturers have since tried too hard to serve two masters of satisfying both the HT and music listening segments. In their efforts to do so, they have lost their way in focusing on music reproduction. The speakers have become too detailed and edgy which makes their output a labor to listen to for the average listener. Therein the reason why many enthusiasts are less than satisfied with their systems once they are set up.

You had mentioned a number of years ago that you used to own or loved JBL speakers from yesteryear. Maybe a more interesting and fruitful venture would be to try and re-discover how good some of those speakers really were, and build your speaker system around a pair of those legacies?

[RebelMan]

Could someone please remind me how much a pair of second hand 803Ds costs in the US?

Yeah, ~$5K for a second hand pair of 803D is not unreasonable and it would meet the requirements.

[RebelMan]

You had mentioned a number of years ago that you used to own or loved JBL speakers from yesteryear. Maybe a more interesting and fruitful venture would be to try and re-discover how good some of those speakers really were, and build your speaker system around a pair of those legacies?

Indeed, but they weren't quite the studio masters I would want today.

I have been a 50/50 guy for more than 25 years but I have been giving Briz's comment a lot of thought of late. Especially now that one of my main sources for music has changed formats and with the recent Netflix price/plan change for movies.

Problem is I love the surround sound effects that a 5.1 system gives as much as I do the three dimensional sound stage that a 2.0 system can produce. They are both special in their own way, which is why I have always had a multi-channel speaker system that served both purposes.

The OP was intended to pick peoples brains to see what they would come up with without leading them on. I offered a blank canvas with few restrictions hoping for some creative but practical high-performing solutions. Unfortunately, there hasn't been as much feedback that I was hoping to see and maybe it is because the requirements are too elusive. I suspect if I were to say build a speaker system around such and such a room and such and such ancillaries responses would be more forthcoming. I didn't do that because I didn't want to restrict or limit one's ideas.

I am puzzled by the fact that no one has mentioned any kind of in-wall or on-wall solution, or the use of multiple sub-woofers. Why not?

[beden1]

I am puzzled by the fact that no one has mentioned any kind of in-wall or on-wall solution, or the use of multiple sub-woofers. Why not?

I think because the price of multiple sub woofers would eat up much of the $5,000 budget you established.

The concept of considering legacy speakers came to light as I was considering your budget restraints. I have just completed a new HT system, and while doing so, I also came to the realization that the twain does not meet my preference for both music listening and HT.

HT mixes are typically more lively and unnatural than live musical instruments and natural voices. But, the mixes on many films and TV shows seem to also cloud voices in the foray (poorly mixed), so a very accurate speaker is needed to project the voice, particularly in large rooms. B&W speakers in general, and my 804Dis and HTM4Di do a great job with HT and projecting voices. But, I found the same speakers to be fatiguing and too accurate at the highest frequencies when listening to music for any length of time.

So, I decided to swap my ADS-910s that were anchoring my HT system with the 804Dis, and my HT system (before going ahead and upgrading the entire system around the 804Dis) sounded substantially better in clarity and in projecting voices. It now sounds spectacular with the new system.

I brought my ADS-910s (very large studio monitors with twin 8" woofers) down to my basement stereo set-up and found that I was really enjoying the music. I don't have a sub woofer in this system, and the 910s did not need any help because their bass output has always been spectacular. But, I also noticed that the 910s seem to roll off a bit at the highest frequencies, and as a result, my sensitive ears found this extremely pleasing and were craving more listening time, as opposed to turning off the system to give them a rest. Very enjoyable indeed! Not bad after having them since around 1977-78. (I'm also thinking that there is no replacement for displacement, like your 800Ds as well).

I'm now down listening to my FL system with the 803Ds as anchors. The listening room is lively as compared to my other rooms with its' 24' ceilings, so the sound is going to be different in itself by comparison. But, after listening to them during this past week for HT and music, and with the assistance of a pair of 15" sub woofers, they may be the best of the lot for both. To be fair however, the system includes Classe amps and the SSP-800. It will probably never happen, but I would love to bring my ADS-910s here for a side-by-side comparison.

My preference out of the three pairs of speakers for just music listening would be the ADS-910s (without subs), followed by the 803Ds (with subs in large room - ? if needed in smaller room), and the 804Dis with subs.

For HT, my preference is the 804Dis, followed by the 803Ds, and then the ADS-910s.

[btf1980]

The 805D2 could work if you factor in a typical 10-15% discount so it is still a worthwhile suggestion. The CM9 would fit the financial bill better though. So which do you stand by?

Don't forget one of the assumptions is you already have the equipment to drive the speakers with.

It depends on what equipment the person has already. If it's of the Rotel or Marantz variety, then the CM9 would fit in quite nicely. If the person has Classe electronics, or something of that caliber, the 805D would be a better match.

[ShadowZA]

For me, the most critical aspect are the diamond tweeters. For $5000 I would look to 2 channel only and try to get the very best "2-speaker with diamond tweeter" setup that I could find. Due to not having heard the D2 range I do not know whether the hypothetical setup might be (apologies for not being able to choose one setup outright):

1. A pair of second hand 803D's (which sound I'm fairly familiar with), or
2. A pair of new 805D2's, or
3. A pair of new 804D2's (possibly killing the budget but then living off SalticraX for a month or two - greed? Yes ... but hopefully of a healthy kind).

Of course I'd choose not to make this important decision alone. The sultry, effervescent vocals of a certain Ms Stacey Kent would be critical to the process as would be certain movie discs such that both musical and movie aspects could be assessed.

I know that this sounds absurd but I so like the diamond tweeters that I could possibly quite favourably adjust to having just ONE speaker. Bono in Mono! So long as that speaker has a diamond tweeter. This could be point 4 in the above hypothetical setup. One second hand 802D2 (or 800D) saved from a housefire somewhere? One speaker in the room with screen above? I need to try this!

[aweil]

I have a used set of 703 fronts, a CMC2 center, and a set of M1 rears, along with a HSU VTF-MK3 sub that I bought used.

The only new speaker was the CMC2.... I'm quite pleased with the sound, but I don't dare A/B it with an 800 series system because I suspect I will be quite disappointed. :T

[beden1]

I have a used set of 703 fronts, a CMC2 center, and a set of M1 rears, along with a HSU VTF-MK3 sub that I bought used.

The only new speaker was the CMC2.... I'm quite pleased with the sound, but I don't dare A/B it with an 800 series system because I suspect I will be quite disappointed. :T

The 703s with an HTM1 center is actually quite good.

[NMG]

703's for the mains, HTM7 for the center and DS6 S3's for surrounds. I suspect this could be had on the used market for 5K without much issue. I have this setup and for me it's pretty darn nice. That said, I also have a Paradigm Reference Sub 12 in the mix but that probably would put it over the 5K :T :B

[Aiden]

CM5, CMC, M1 and a pair of REL B1

[RebelMan]

I think because the price of multiple sub woofers would eat up much of the $5,000 budget you established.

Possibly. Some creative distribution of funds might be possible I would think.

B&W speakers in general, and my 804Dis and HTM4Di do a great job with HT and projecting voices. But, I found the same speakers to be fatiguing and too accurate at the highest frequencies when listening to music for any length of time.

What were you using to drive these speakers (Pioneer)? Did you make any comparisons using different gear (Classe') in this setting and configuration?

My preference out of the three pairs of speakers for just music listening would be the ADS-910s (without subs), followed by the 803Ds (with subs in large room - ? if needed in smaller room), and the 804Dis with subs.

For HT, my preference is the 804Dis, followed by the 803Ds, and then the ADS-910s.

It would seem from these two statements that the 803D would work out best all the way around.

[RebelMan]

It depends on what equipment the person has already. If it's of the Rotel or Marantz variety, then the CM9 would fit in quite nicely. If the person has Classe electronics, or something of that caliber, the 805D would be a better match.

I understand your point. Its about having a balanced system. Generally the better the speakers the more revealing they will be of their partnering equipment. That's why better speakers generally demand better equipment go with them.

But in this scenario, I am assuming to already have the better equipment. But what I think is better may not necessarily be better to you. That's why I left the assumption of equipment up to the reader. Keeping in mind the 50/50 rule, does that change your response?

[RebelMan]

For me, the most critical aspect are the diamond tweeters. For $5000 I would look to 2 channel only and try to get the very best "2-speaker with diamond tweeter" setup that I could find.

Loving the humor Shadow, thanks. :lol:

Your response does intrigue me though. I've known you to be a similar 50/50 listener for some time. Maybe not always movies but definitely multi-channel audio of some kind or another. So you would forgo a multi-channel setup in favor of a two-channel one as long as it consisted of man's new best friend? No subs either?

[RebelMan]

I have a used set of 703 fronts, a CMC2 center, and a set of M1 rears, along with a HSU VTF-MK3 sub that I bought used.

The only new speaker was the CMC2.... I'm quite pleased with the sound, but I don't dare A/B it with an 800 series system because I suspect I will be quite disappointed. :T

Maybe you could prolong the life of your speakers and get more out of them by making some changes further up the chain? I bet if you brought the 800 series home while keeping your equipment constant the improvements wouldn't be so great as you might think. Generally when you hear the 800 series demos they are partnered with some pretty good stuff. So the improvements are going to shine through better. Imagine what your speakers could be with the same pretty good stuff the demos used? :twisted:

[beden1]

Possibly. Some creative distribution of funds might be possible I would think.

What were you using to drive these speakers (Pioneer)? Did you make any comparisons using different gear (Classe') in this setting and configuration?

It would seem from these two statements that the 803D would work out best all the way around.

I was driving the 804Di with my Classe CP-500, Aragon 8003 amp, a Sony DVD9000ES for CD, as well as an iPod Classic, and a Rega P3 turntable. The setup is in my basement which has neutral sounding acoustics with a suspended ceiling and wall-to-wall carpeting.

I retired my Pioneer Elite receivers. One was fried by a lightning strike and the other was recently replaced by Marantz separates.

Yes, the 803Ds are the best speakers of the lot for a combination HT and stereo system.

I have not heard the new diamond series in my Florida setup, but I suspect their more lively and articulate nature would prove too much for my already lively/live performance sounding room acoustics which I love with my 803Ds.

I have to say however, that I have not encountered problems thoroughly enjoying my ADS-910s in any room where I've had them so far (6 different rooms in 3 different houses over the years)... or, driven by 7 different systems in 35+ years. I can't say that about B&W speakers that are both very room and system sensitive.

[ShadowZA]

Loving the humor Shadow, thanks. :lol:

Your response does intrigue me though. I've known you to be a similar 50/50 listener for some time. Maybe not always movies but definitely multi-channel audio of some kind or another. So you would forgo a multi-channel setup in favor of a two-channel one as long as it consisted of man's new best friend? No subs either?

For a while now I have been analyzing my system and trying to determine its most critical aspect of importance to me. To put it another way, I asked myself: "If I had to eliminate the speakers in my system (one by one), what would I prefer to end up with and why." My answer? The centre speaker. The financial volatility around coupled with my accounting background probably prompted these thoughts. It was quite a shock to me when I realized that my love of the diamond tweeter is so strong that I could quite feasibly forgo multi-channel sound, a sub and even the soundstage of a 2-channel system. I would fight tooth and nail NOT to get to this point ... but if I HAD to, well ... it could be the plan.

Picture this ... one emaciated & wrinkled dude out there in the desert ... drought-stricken, thirsty (think the Paris, Texas guy but in "crawl" mode). A junction appears. To the left ... an oasis with cool water, food, spa, etc. To the right ... diamond tweeter sound to soothe. Of course, right isn't right for everyone.

On a serious note (not saying that the above is not serious but I just need to empasize something) I need to mention that given financial constraints I would definitely choose the best diamond tweeter 2-channel system I could find above a multichannel system with sub. Hope that this helps.

[Blindamood]

If you had 5000 (domestic currency) to spend on a new B&W speaker system what would you assemble? Assume you spend half your time listening to music and the other half watching movies. Assume you already have all the necessary ancillaries to support such a system and the space to install it. You may consider in-walls, on-walls, off-walls or any combination of the three for your configuration. You may also consider any combination of channels and any type of speaker(s) from any current lineup that B&W offers; mix and match if you want to. Assume your first priority is to get the best bang for your buck and that all other priorities are secondary such as domestic constraints and aesthetics. If you come up with more than one system from which to choose use your secondary priorities to limit your choice to just one configuration. Thanks.

I've worked my way up throught the B&W line, starting with the 6-series (S2), then on to the CDM NT series, and now I have 805S, HTM4S, and SCMS (with a Velodyne MiniVee sub). With the strong B&W used market, this was not as difficult to achieve (although I'm not sure how the latest big-box distribution channels have affected resale, if at all).

Quite honestly, the biggest bang-for-my-buck of all of these was the CDM 9NT floorstanders. I absolutely loved those speakers in a pure stereo setup. So if I had to start all over again with current models in that price range, I would go with the CM9s as a good starting point. From there, you could either get the matching center (CM Centre 2), OR get a pair of CM5s and skip the center. Then add a small sub, such as the MiniVee that would add some bottom end without breaking the budget. Down the road, I'd fill in the missing piece(s) and maybe move up to a bigger sub.