How important is "true" bi-wiring to the 802d?

[Antonkk]

By "true" I mean connecting 2 runs of separate cables instead of the usual bi-wired cable. Does it help?

[johnsmeets]

Not the answer you wanted One pair of decent speakerkabels is enough
Serach the net about the bi-wiring fairytail
Bi-amping is a different story...

[ShadowZA]

Here's an interesting read concerning an argument that there is a difference between a bi-wired speaker system and conventional wiring due to a difference in their cable power dissipation behaviours: http://www.audioholics.com/education...able-conundrum

Unfortunately cannot help with any info regarding different bi-wiring cable methodologies.

[style]

hi,

for me a really bi wiring is not a cable with a 4 termination but 2 set of single speakers cables: more expemsive but is the true and give a really improvement at the speaker-sound.

of course buy a 2 set of single way of cables from a good level is more expensive but give a really bi-wiring sense.
style

[stuofsci02]

As long as the speaker wire is of sufficient gauge, there is no benefit to bi-wiring...

[Kal Rubinson]

hi,

for me a really bi wiring is not a cable with a 4 termination but 2 set of single speakers cables: more expemsive but is the true and give a really improvement at the speaker-sound.

of course buy a 2 set of single way of cables from a good level is more expensive but give a really bi-wiring sense.
style

Really? Is there any technical logic behind this distinction?

[wettou]

For the 802D I use two Kimber Cable 8TC same length :T My amps have dual speaker posts and so do the speakers

[tanwn]

using biwire with equal length would allow the treble and bass signal to travel on their own path and therefore less signal interaction. It may or may not sound different to you, but for me the sound is more open. Manufacturer have separated the crossover for treble mid and bass units for similar reason and it woud be logical to use biwiring if the speaker permits.

[mjb]

Would someone like to explain the electrical difference between the two diagrams?



As I've said before, if you hear a difference Bi-Wiring, then you should have used larger cable in the first place.

Bi-Amping, we can talk a little longer about, but Bi-Wiring is nothing more than a cable marketing initiative.

[style]

Really? Is there any technical logic behind this distinction?

have a high end cabling!!!

Kal sorry but a bi-wire cable is with a 2 spades/bananas at the ampli side and at the other side (speakers) you have 4 end.
each cables is double : at the start in a single bananas and at the end you have the 4 cables for your speaker:
if do you have 2 single way cables (2 set) you have on the paper the same like a bi wire cable but the quality from a "double cabling" is sure better (noise, clean frequnecy,.) vs. a bi-wire cable.

if do you go in a hig end store a lot of setup have this 2 set cables for the bi-wire and not a single cable bi-wire/splitted from 2 to 4 ending.

do you think that the single way cable with a jumper cant be at the level from a cable bi wire?
(of course we speak from cables highEnd, not a $. 1000 cables!!)


this is little different from a system high end and a "simply" hifi chain.

go read in the net and you can have a big surprise! :E

regards style

[style]

For the 802D I use two Kimber Cable 8TC same length My amps have dual speaker posts and so do the speakers

@wettou: do you use a 2 single way pro speaker?

I use the same cable company but other model (Monocle XL) :T

[stuofsci02]

Would someone like to explain the electrical difference between the two diagrams?



As I've said before, if you hear a difference Bi-Wiring, then you should have used larger cable in the first place.

Bi-Amping, we can talk a little longer about, but Bi-Wiring is nothing more than a cable marketing initiative.

Electrically the schematics are fundamentally identical. If you went extremely in depth into the analysis, there would be some extremely minor differences. Nothing that would be audible IMO..

[stuofsci02]

using biwire with equal length would allow the treble and bass signal to travel on their own path and therefore less signal interaction. It may or may not sound different to you, but for me the sound is more open. Manufacturer have separated the crossover for treble mid and bass units for similar reason and it woud be logical to use biwiring if the speaker permits.

Remember that the bass signal is still present on the treble cables and the treble is still present on the bass cable when biwiring. It is just that the crossover impedes these signals and dissipates this power instead of the driver. Certainly the current would be lower, but this is no such thing as own path when the cables are shorted together at the amp.

In essence the biwiring still happens at the speaker even when single wired. The only difference with biwiring is that this common point is moved 6 ft back towards the amp (assuming 6 ft speaker leads).

Now on cheaper speakers that use a goldplated bar to jump the LF/HF terminals I am a big supporter of replacing this with speaker cable..

[Kal Rubinson]

have a high end cabling!!!

Kal sorry but a bi-wire cable is with a 2 spades/bananas at the ampli side and at the other side (speakers) you have 4 end.
each cables is double : at the start in a single bananas and at the end you have the 4 cables for your speaker:
if do you have 2 single way cables (2 set) you have on the paper the same like a bi wire cable but the quality from a "double cabling" is sure better (noise, clean frequnecy,.) vs. a bi-wire cable.

if do you go in a hig end store a lot of setup have this 2 set cables for the bi-wire and not a single cable bi-wire/splitted from 2 to 4 ending.

do you think that the single way cable with a jumper cant be at the level from a cable bi wire?
(of course we speak from cables highEnd, not a $. 1000 cables!!)


this is little different from a system high end and a "simply" hifi chain.

go read in the net and you can have a big surprise! :E

regards style

Nah.

[stuofsci02]

Nah.

Classic...

[olilugo]

Would someone like to explain the electrical difference between the two diagrams?



As I've said before, if you hear a difference Bi-Wiring, then you should have used larger cable in the first place.

Bi-Amping, we can talk a little longer about, but Bi-Wiring is nothing more than a cable marketing initiative.

I know some are using this picture to talk about bi-wiring. I happen to have a potential different picture which I really don't know if it changes the conversation.
My amp is a sunfire TGA-5200, it is a 5 channel 200w per channel amp.
I am including a page from the manual that explains how to set up this particular amp if you wanted to use bi-wiring.
under this setup you will use two physical runs per post for your speakers. for the purposes of the discussion how, does this amp provide a capability that other amps don't? or if I would to see the "real" schematic would be be just like mjb presented?

[stuofsci02]

I know some are using this picture to talk about bi-wiring. I happen to have a potential different picture which I really don't know if it changes the conversation.
My amp is a sunfire TGA-5200, it is a 5 channel 200w per channel amp.
I am including a page from the manual that explains how to set up this particular amp if you wanted to use bi-wiring.
under this setup you will use two physical runs per post for your speakers. for the purposes of the discussion how, does this amp provide a capability that other amps don't? or if I would to see the "real" schematic would be be just like mjb presented?

Hi Olilugo,

Your amp is just jumpered on the inside which makes biwiring easier then connecting two leads to one set of posts. It is still the same electrically.

Cheers!

[olilugo]

And I though I had something especial. :-).
If you see the picture in detail, there are two kinds of connections for left and right channels; the choices are current and voltage. the rest of the channels uses voltage according to the manual.
there is another note on the manual that says:
NOTE: The Current Source output is a Voltage Source modified to yield
an impedance of one ohm. This corresponds ap prox i mately to a vacuum
tube amplifi er's output im ped ance and constitutes the dominant factor in the soundstage delivery of classic vacuum tube power amplifiers."
As I read all these It made me belive that in fact bi-wiring was different on this particular amp.
I happend to use all sources and I didn't like the sound. I ended up connecting using one single ended wire at the amp and bi-wire at the speaker end and suing the voltage side of the source.

[stuofsci02]

Sorry olilugo,

I didn't see that description on photo you showed. What you have is Bob Carvers "Down Tracking" technology. On this amp you can use your amp with a very low output impedance (voltage source), or a higher output impedance which is more similar to a tube amp (current source). You can also use both.

Although you would do this in a bi-wire configuration, this is not really true bi-wiring. It is actually closer to bi-amp since you use a difference amp configuration for the HF then for the LF. Sounds interesting...

[wettou]

@wettou: do you use a 2 single way pro speaker?

I use the same cable company but other model (Monocle XL) :T

Monocle are way too expensive for my wallet,

I was able to get 8TC at dealer cost several years ago 60 feet for for $300 instead of $1260 nice margins hey

So I can run two 10 feet of 8TC per speaker since each monoblock amp has four binding post and so do the 802D

[style]

@Kal,
an example.
...too small "bookshelf speaker" like



a "little" Magico 2 with 2 single way cables....


style

[gerardhn]

nordost cables can be bi-wired from amp side for free!
their cables consist of 4 sets signal strands.
each set consisting of wires
Just for your information

[style]

gerardhn, is not the same thing.

all the brand have in the catalogue a bi wire model....


I dont are "contra" the cable bi wired but all this people that go with the option 2 set single way have a reason!
not only to waste money.....

[azazel]

Cables can be a waste of money. If the conductor size is big enough, I dont think you could tell any difference. Room acoustics, speakers and amps make a big difference. Worry about cables last and mainly for vanity reasons.

[Rod#S]

I have always been intrigued by expensive cables, mainly for the simple reason they look cool but deep down I was skeptical of the difference they could make. It wasn't until this past December where I was finally offered an opportunity to use a pair of relatively expensive cables, a 7 foot pair of Kimber Monacle XL and frankly I was shocked at what I heard, yes heard.
There was absolutely no mistake, the highs opened up to such a degree I may as well have been using different speakers, it was like I had been listening to my speakers with a blanket draped over them. I couldn't hear any real discernable difference in the lows but the mids were noticeable tighter. My speakers, Paradigm Reference Studio 100v2, I have had since the summer of 2002, my amp is a Bryston 4BSST which I have had since January 2004, my surround sound processor is a Lexicon MC-12B which I have had since January 2004, and my speaker cables are Ixos 6006 (I think) which I purchased with my Paradigms along with Kimber PBJ balanced cables for connection between the SSP and amp. Since I have lived with these components for years any change to my system which can yield a different sound I will immediately pick up on and I can say with absolutely certantity, if I was blind folded and someone was randomly swaping between my Ixos and the Kimbers I could tell the difference. Like I said, I was shocked at the difference a bit of copper can make.
Now I won't go as far as to say expensive cables make a system sound better, what I will say is different cables do in fact produce audible differences.
Based on the Kimber test I immediately wanted the Kimbers for my upcoming 802Di's and just purchased HTM2Di however in comparing the price of 3 12'-15' Monacle XL's it's only a bit more to get a pair of 805Di's, so with reason and not passion taking over this is what I am ultimately going to do as I want to replace all of my Paradigms with B&Ws. I will indeed get the Kimber's down the road but only after I get the speakers I want.
So to the topic of bi-wiring, I can't comment on that because I have never bi-wired speakers but my advice would be, if it is a cable upgrade you are looking at doing I would focus of getting a very good cable first and if a bi-wire option is available then perhaps consider it if it's not a substantial upgrade to the cost. I would wager you would get/hear more by going to a solid non-bi-wire cable then you would get from going with that excellent cable to it's bi-wire configuration.

[emig5m]

Cables can be a waste of money. If the conductor size is big enough, I dont think you could tell any difference. Room acoustics, speakers and amps make a big difference. Worry about cables last and mainly for vanity reasons.

^ My same thoughts...

[wettou]

Cables can be a waste of money. If the conductor size is big enough, I dont think you could tell any difference. Room acoustics, speakers and amps make a big difference. Worry about cables last and mainly for vanity reasons.

Thank you, yes good gage and short runs :T

[style]

Originally Posted by azazel
Cables can be a waste of money. If the conductor size is big enough, I dont think you could tell any difference. Room acoustics, speakers and amps make a big difference. Worry about cables last and mainly for vanity reasons.

yes one part I'm with you and at the other I say you that after have made a test with a complity new power cables on my sistem the improvement was/is a reallity!

I dont believe in "woodo cables", and like you write at first are other the "more important point"(Room acoustics, speakers and amps make a big difference) but cables business have too a part of true inside...

[JürgenW]

Please stop this.
It is now no more than an exchange of meanings, which we all know.

[HedgeHog]

While those cables on the Magico looks amazing (and probably sound amazing too), it looks the the girth is only padded since the actual cable heading towards the jacks are 10 gauge or 8 gauge. So really, using two high gauge cable would do (metallurgical properties and other technical geewizery notwithstanding).

I tend to like big fatty cables since it bugs the wife.

-H

[style]

Please stop this.
It is now no more than an exchange of meanings, which we all know.

oke JürgenW, go with your bi wire theme...or your point of view over this thread.

[style]

hi -H,
never see a brand with cable not high guage but with other philosophy and cables very thin, but (apparently) very high performance?

the Magico will be very amazing with a single way or a 3-wire :P !
but they have a price not entry level!!!

style

[dukester]

I don't get it; this thread started out fine discussing 'bi-wiring', then slowly became a 'cable' discussion (w/c is prohibited). Then when someone tried to stop it, the attempt was ignored? Cable discussions; although entertaining, are exercises in futility.

[style]

that's right.

but in a part with speak frm bi-wiring and the modus to do this. not of cables company brands .....

but never mind for me is ok.

[Kal Rubinson]

Cable discussions; although entertaining, are exercises in futility.

Same for bi-wiring. :roll:

[azazel]

What about optical cables? I always enjoy a laugh at the hifi shop when i ask them if its worth upgrading my optical cables. If I could be bothered, I would make my own cables from thick, pure silver wire and PTFE tube. I use VDH cables as that is what B&W used and Meridian. I have balanced long interconnects and short biwired speaker cables terminated with WBT connectors as thats what the speakers have. Sounds great!

[wettou]

Same for bi-wiring. :roll:

Yes but taht is where the profit margins are:W

Copper at 99.9999999% purity :lol: There exist no instrument, that can measure that ,

or the atoms of copper are perfectly aligned and crystalized ;x(

Long live cable companies, in the mean time sound engineers buy Belden , Mogami or Canare for us CAT cables are good and reasonably priced

Bi-Wire if you must and judge for yourself just keep the cable the same lenght :T

[Race Car Driver]

To those who spend thousands on expensive speaker wire, ever take a look at the speaker wire that is inside of those fancy cabinets which cost thousands?
Of course you haven't...

[Jinjuku]

For the 802D I use two Kimber Cable 8TC same length :T My amps have dual speaker posts and so do the speakers

I am curious what your 8tc does that Belden 5000 12AWG can not. I saw that 8tc was $240 for a 5 foot pair. While the Belden is ~$0.60 foot.

I know that both cables L/C/R measure very close to each other.

[Jinjuku]

using biwire with equal length would allow the treble and bass signal to travel on their own path and therefore less signal interaction. It may or may not sound different to you, but for me the sound is more open. Manufacturer have separated the crossover for treble mid and bass units for similar reason and it woud be logical to use biwiring if the speaker permits.

You do understand that in a bi-wire that the circuits are not electrically isolated?

Do you understand that with a crossover that if you have a 2K woofer to tweeter x-over point that frequency above that point will see the woofer circuit as open?

[wettou]

I am curious what your 8tc does that Belden 5000 12AWG can not. I saw that 8tc was $240 for a 5 foot pair. While the Belden is ~$0.60 foot.

I know that both cables L/C/R measure very close to each other.

I was able to get 60 feet of 8TC cables for $300 which is why I pulled out the wallet Since that brought the cable down to $5 per foot, yes expensive but not too bad. I just liked the look and at that price I was willing to pay a bit more.

I would have never paid $1380 for this

I also use Mogami W3104 4 Conductor 12 AWG High Definition Speaker Wire in my smaller system, yes they are more expensive than the Belden which I use for my HDMi cable. I needed 10 feet of cable for my stereo system so $42.4 is reasonable :T

I also use Balanced XLR interconnect from Canare and Mogami with Neutrik connectors

NC3FXX-EMC-B
3 pole female EMC-XLR cable connector, black
NC3MXX-EMC


Any way enough about what cable buy what makes you happy and that sound good to your ears CAT cables are very good as well

[Jinjuku]

I was able to get 60 feet of 8TC cables for $300 which is why I pulled out the wallet Since that brought the cable down to $5 per foot, yes expensive but not too bad. I just liked the look and at that price I was willing to pay a bit more.

I would have never paid $1380 for this

I also use Mogami W3104 4 Conductor 12 AWG High Definition Speaker Wire in my smaller system, yes they are more expensive than the Belden which I use for my HDMi cable. I needed 10 feet of cable for my stereo system so $42.4 is reasonable :T

I also use Balanced XLR interconnect from Canare and Mogami with Neutrik connectors

NC3FXX-EMC-B
3 pole female EMC-XLR cable connector, black
NC3MXX-EMC


Any way enough about what cable buy what makes you happy and that sound good to your ears CAT cables are very good as well

Thx.

I am using the same Neutrik's. LOVE those XLR's.

[Jessmar]

Something to consider when bi-wiring. One reason for bi-wiring is to eliminate the cheapie jumper sometimes supplied with the speakers. If the amp being used has two sets of binding posts, only one of the sets is internally wired. The other one is connected with a jumper. I make it a point to used the wired binding posts for the upper end and the jumped binding posts for the bass. By doing this we somewhat eliminate the jumper from the amp which is why we bi-wire to begin with. This came to me years ago when I had the top off one of my Krell amplifiers and noticed the flat metal jumpers which appeared to be aluminum.

[Kal Rubinson]

Something to consider when bi-wiring. One reason for bi-wiring is to eliminate the cheapie jumper sometimes supplied with the speakers. If the amp being used has two sets of binding posts, only one of the sets is internally wired. The other one is connected with a jumper.

You describe the jumpers as "cheapie" but offer no reason why they might make any difference in sound. Is there any physical or electrical property that would make them ineffective over a span of 1 to 6 inches? I cannot think of any.

[mrciave]

Funny how cable/wiring discussions generate so much aggression/sarcasm and firm positions!!!

I have a simple question/poll to everybody who posted in this thread.

Regardless of money considerations, worth/not worth, better/worse sound, presumed/assumed/real technical considerations, I'd like everybody to answer YES/NO to the following question: HAVE YOU EVER HEARD A DIFFERENCE IN SOUND GENERATED BY SIGNAL/SPEAKER/POWER CABLES?

(for who will answer "NO", poor guys, this means that either your audio system is not revelatory enough to highlight the differences, or your ears are not good enough to hear them ops: )

Jokes apart, I could hear differences, and not small, on my system, on some other friend's system, and my friends can spot the differences too (even people not in the hobby), and if the difference is big enough, you can spot it even in blind tests, even my GF does spot the differences (and I mention her as she loves music, has a good ear, goes to live events, but cares NOTHING about the gear). So how is it possible that some people is so firm in saying "No way, it's not possible?"

After all, we speak about "nuances" provided by speakers, electronics, we speak about the room, and JUST CABLES, cannot deliver differences?

Just curious why these poor cables are not allowed to contribute to the sound. Then why the Esoteric would, in the upgrade from X01 to X01LTD, change the internal wiring to higher grade copper?

@Kal: I respect you as one of the world-known reviewers, and I read with interest Stereophile, so for me it's a bit strange that your approach is not open-minded on this topic ("Nah"). After all, Stereophile reviewed my electronics table concluding the difference can be heard (http://forum.stereophile.com/standsr...ite/index.html), and it was key in making me decide to fork the cash. So again, why are cables not allowed to make a difference?