B&W 803S AMP Dilema KRELL FPB vs McIntosh MC452 vs MC302

[specialized]

Hi there.. Since i still didnt upgrade my rotels, i have a dilema now what to get..

Rest of my setup is Benchmark DAC1 Pre, McIntosh C2300...

In this moment i have on test Krell FPB-300C which i like how it sound with my combination.. Im worried about the fact that is 11 years old and that Krell sugest since this is A class AMP to be serviced every 10 years (capacitors maintence). That's not an option to me, becouse i have to send it to the factory and it's far away from here and very expensive. Also the box is lost so it's even more complicated about shipping if i have to do it.. Im not sure how long it would work like this and if that maintence is really needed or it can serve next 5-10 years without problems?


Again.. i like the sound it's producing with my B&W 803s. Very musical, powerfull and fast..


I had a chance to try MC501 year ago, and since i like the clean sound, i miss some PRAT and bass power (there was a bit slow sound).

From reading reviews and previews seem that new MC452 it's a bit faster and better bass control so it can be the right one.. Problem is i cant listen it and have to order blindly..

Also considering MC302.. Same problem as MC452. Cant listen it and have to order blindly..

Also there is a option of ordering MC402 and MC252 but since the new models seem like a worth upgrade i dont consider it..(also not a chance or option to listen)


What do u think to do? To take a risc (about possible maintence) with Krell? Or to go Brand New McIntosh route? Also what is the prices of this McIntosh amps in Europe? And how much discount is normal to get?

Greetings

[stuofsci02]

Specialized,

Have you tried a Chord Amp. I to like a very responsive dynamic sound. I think this is where Chord really does a great job. Also in Europe Chord seems to be cheaper then in Canada/USA. I would definately audition one if you can.

Cheers,

Stuart

[specialized]

Specialized,

Have you tried a Chord Amp. I to like a very responsive dynamic sound. I think this is where Chord really does a great job. Also in Europe Chord seems to be cheaper then in Canada/USA. I would definately audition one if you can.

Cheers,

Stuart

It's not possible.. I put the options in my previous post.. If someone is able to help me about that i would be very glad..

thanks

[scanido]

Specialized,

The 803S loves the power. Don't let the paltry 300w handling fool you into getting a lower watt amp. I tried my 803S with MC402 and they opened up nicely and sounded extremely clean at higher details, let alone, better details at lower volume.

I thought my MC205 was a nice improvement but when i coupled it my recently acquired McIntosh MX150, it was like I got new silky smooth speakers, it was unbelievable. It took my system a few notches up! Love it!!! :E

I say go for the newer MC452 so you don't miss out on the Mcintosh synergies with the C2300 you have!!! Your 803S will be transformed with the higher watts!

[stuofsci02]

Scanido,

Where is TO are you?

[aarsoe]

Not much else out there that will give you the full body sound that Krell offers. However the downside of the power draw and heat is to much for some - including myself.
I would suggest finding out what the actual cost of the Krell service would be, including shipping, and then make my decision based on that.
You can ask many people, but ultimately you are the one living with it every day - and trust me I don't always agree with what other people recommend..
So why should you?

[specialized]

Not much else out there that will give you the full body sound that Krell offers. However the downside of the power draw and heat is to much for some - including myself.
I would suggest finding out what the actual cost of the Krell service would be, including shipping, and then make my decision based on that.
You can ask many people, but ultimately you are the one living with it every day - and trust me I don't always agree with what other people recommend..
So why should you?

I totaly agree with u.. But.. In many cases at here where i live it's not a chance to listen by self Krell service would cost 1500 usd + shipping which is too much and too complicated (customs birocracy etc...)

So if i get the Krell i should risc that I WONT NEED to send to that maintence service long time in the future.. And u describe the sound that im getting.. Full body sound with authority, power, speed and in same time very musical..


So again. Have to decide from the choice i describe.. Also not possible to listen by my self


Greetings

[specialized]

I say go for the newer MC452 so you don't miss out on the Mcintosh synergies with the C2300 you have!!! Your 803S will be transformed with the higher watts![/QUOTE]


MC452 is 450W on 4 and 8 ohm.. Krell FPB deliver 300W on 8 ohm, 600W on 4ohm..Since B&W power curve is more close to the 4 oh, that mean Krell deliver more power? I like teory about thermaltrack technology on new mcintosh amps which should deliver longevity, and no heat at all.. Desicions, desicions..


Greetings

[dukester]

I've got a MC302 on order but it will be my first Mac so i son't be able to provide a comparison to any previous Mac's. Although I will say that when i auditioned the rotels, the dealer let me listen to the MC252...and the difference was significant and distinct. You can compare specs all day but the Mac has a very distinctive sound...and it's that sound that i based my 'blind' order on. I've auditioned Lexicon and Classee and Naim and although very good, still not the same presence as the Mac...always comes down to preference. The relationship i have with my dealer is one that, if i don't like the sound, he will take it back at no cost to me. Maybe you can discuss that option with your dealer? In any case, good luck :T

[Pedro]

MC452 is 450W on 4 and 8 ohm.. Krell FPB deliver 300W on 8 ohm, 600W on 4ohm..Since B&W power curve is more close to the 4 oh, that mean Krell deliver more power?

The Krells always have more current, power than the MCs and that´s why you wrote above. Krells works very well until 2 ohms impedance, BW almost downs 4ohms to 3 or more, so for the speaker it´s better. But it´s a matter of taste or what you´re looking for. MCs are more musical but lost in highs and lows, and Krells the oposite. Just the Evolution series would bring to you the best of the 2 worlds, the FPB series, arent that analytical but arent that musical by MCs. If you like pop, rock, metal Krell is your choice.

[htsteve]

specialized,

I am a believer in system synergy. So I would recommend the McIntosh to go with your C2300. I too would ne nervous about the Krell amp, even as nice as it is.



dukester,

Congratulations on the MC302! That should work very nicely for you.

[Freddie40]

Since you like the Krell I guess I would ask yourself how much the Krell is plus the maintenance (even if you don't need it for years). The compare the cost to that of the new McIntosh's. Ask yourself if it is worth the cost.

Dave

[pazu]

Specialized, could you tell us what's your budget for the ampli?

[specialized]

Specialized, could you tell us what's your budget for the ampli?

Let's put this way.. This Krell cost about twice less then brand new MC


Greetings

[Pedro]

The original price of FPB-300C was USD9K for the pair of new monoblocks. So would be a good deal, if it´s pretty conserved.

[Freddie40]

Let's put this way.. This Krell cost about twice less then brand new MC


Greetings

If you like the sound then your decision should be easy Even if you have to spend $1500 to refurbish it I think the Krell may be the way to go. And remember, once you refurbish it it should be closer to new

[specialized]

If you like the sound then your decision should be easy Even if you have to spend $1500 to refurbish it I think the Krell may be the way to go. And remember, once you refurbish it it should be closer to new

As i said.. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO REFURBISH for me. I have to pay 1500 USD, + 1500 USD shipping cost (to USA and Back). Plus all the birocracy i'll have to finish with customs... So if i get it, i'll have to listen until offer pleasure for listening..


Greetings

Darko

[quan325i]

If you like dynamics and better bass response, keep your Krells. I sold my MC 501s to buy a pair of Krell 650mc for the same reason. Though my 801N demand a little more power but I honestly think that not a lot of amps can bring out the bass and dynamic response of B&W speakers in general. A few amps I have owned over the course of 15 years are: Citation 7.1, Bryston 4BST, Bryston 7BST, CAL MCA2500, Mcintosh MC501 and Krell 650mc. I had critical audtioned Pass Lab 600, Classe M1000, Krell HTS and none could power the 801N adequately in the bass department. Currently, my system has the CAL 2500 for 5.1 and Krell 650mc for the fronts. This is just my personal experience.

QN

[dukester]

If i understand correctly, if you buy the Krell, you know you'll be out another $3K every 10 years...BUT you'll have the sound you WANT. If you go Mac, you'll save money but at the risk of not having the sound you want. Correct?

The synergy of the two Macs might prove to be a better solution as HTSteve indicated...and if it blows you away/you love it, you save yourself $$$$. If not, sell it and buy the Krell...consider it a necessary evil as part of the quest for your ultimate sound.

[dukester]

dukester,

Congratulations on the MC302! That should work very nicely for you


Aloha,
Getting it today and hopefully setting it up this weekend

[htsteve]

Aloha,
Getting it today and hopefully setting it up this weekend

Sweet! Post pictures and initial observations soon.


Aloha

[quan325i]

If i understand correctly, if you buy the Krell, you know you'll be out another $3K every 10 years...BUT you'll have the sound you WANT. If you go Mac, you'll save money but at the risk of not having the sound you want. Correct?

The synergy of the two Macs might prove to be a better solution as HTSteve indicated...and if it blows you away/you love it, you save yourself $$$$. If not, sell it and buy the Krell...consider it a necessary evil as part of the quest for your ultimate sound.

Not a bad suggestion. I do know that McIntosh do hold their resale value very very well. I bought my 501s used and sold them after 2 years for essentially the same price. Not a lot of audio gears can do that.

[dukester]

Sweet! Post pictures and initial observations soon.


Aloha

Not hooked up yet but if it sounds as good as it was packed then i should be set. Eager to hear the benefits of doubling the pwr to my 803di's! Question abour your avatar; how are you managing the heat in such small confines?

[htsteve]

Question abour your avatar; how are you managing the heat in such small confines?

I do not do any active cooling, like a fan. The MX-120 is on the right. As a pre-amp, it does not generate much heat at all. The MC402 is on the left. One of the amazing things about that amp (and Mac amps in general) is how efficiently it runs. I can drive it pretty hard and it is just warm. I've never seen it run hot.

The entertainment center I have (Salamander Syngery) is open in the back and sides. So there is some space around those pieces for natural venting.


Hope this helps.

[dukester]

I do not do any active cooling, like a fan. The MX-120 is on the right. As a pre-amp, it does not generate much heat at all. The MC402 is on the left. One of the amazing things about that amp (and Mac amps in general) is how efficiently it runs. I can drive it pretty hard and it is just warm. I've never seen it run hot.

The entertainment center I have (Salamander Syngery) is open in the back and sides. So there is some space around those pieces for natural venting.


Hope this helps.

Good to know as salamander has been on my shortlist.

I set up the mc302 last nite...barely got warm after 2 hrs (as you said, no active cooling a concern at this point). Dealer noted new 'thermal track' may involve longer break in...300hrs maybe. However out of the box i got the sound i've been after; bass control & warmth. Didn't want to wake the kids so low lvls only but even then detail & sndstge impressive (benefit of the inc pwr i presume). It also seems to tighten everything up, better perspective. Eager for more seat time and to hear how it evolves.

[pazu]

Hi boys!

My apologize for this OT, but...

My Best Wishes for an Happy New Year to all Forumers!

pazu

:T

[specialized]

If you like dynamics and better bass response, keep your Krells. I sold my MC 501s to buy a pair of Krell 650mc for the same reason. Though my 801N demand a little more power but I honestly think that not a lot of amps can bring out the bass and dynamic response of B&W speakers in general. A few amps I have owned over the course of 15 years are: Citation 7.1, Bryston 4BST, Bryston 7BST, CAL MCA2500, Mcintosh MC501 and Krell 650mc. I had critical audtioned Pass Lab 600, Classe M1000, Krell HTS and none could power the 801N adequately in the bass department. Currently, my system has the CAL 2500 for 5.1 and Krell 650mc for the fronts. This is just my personal experience.

QN

After experimenting for 20 days, and after decided that Krell is too bright and agressive for listening, i got the impressive results. As first i was trying whole the time to play without preamp, and directly my Benchmark DAC1 Pre to Krell. And also i picked wrong cables (which sound good on my Rotels). Last few days i got warmer sounding cables and i cant believe how big difference cable can make.. Still Benchmark DAC1 it's too analitical directly connected to Krell.. I added my McIntosh C2300 and got more warmer sound, but it was a bit dispersed in highs.. Again. Wrong cable Lucky me i have friends with big collection of cables so they give it to me to experiment.. The result what i got is impressive.. Tight bass, dynamic, big soundstage, very quiet background, airy instruments..

Whole idea to me was to dump the preamp becouse im not sure that i can afford in this moment, but seem that this mcIntosh is definitly great peace of hardware.. Tommorow i'll try another way.. To get MC275 and to play it with Benchmark.. If this combination sound this good, i'll go that way (it's cheaper to me becouse i can sell C2300). If not, i'll have to keep C2300 and i'll get Krell

Greetings

[stuofsci02]

After experimenting for 20 days, and after decided that Krell is too bright and agressive for listening, i got the impressive results. As first i was trying whole the time to play without preamp, and directly my Benchmark DAC1 Pre to Krell. And also i picked wrong cables (which sound good on my Rotels). Last few days i got warmer sounding cables and i cant believe how big difference cable can make.. Still Benchmark DAC1 it's too analitical directly connected to Krell.. I added my McIntosh C2300 and got more warmer sound, but it was a bit dispersed in highs.. Again. Wrong cable Lucky me i have friends with big collection of cables so they give it to me to experiment.. The result what i got is impressive.. Tight bass, dynamic, big soundstage, very quiet background, airy instruments..

Whole idea to me was to dump the preamp becouse im not sure that i can afford in this moment, but seem that this mcIntosh is definitly great peace of hardware.. Tommorow i'll try another way.. To get MC275 and to play it with Benchmark.. If this combination sound this good, i'll go that way (it's cheaper to me becouse i can sell C2300). If not, i'll have to keep C2300 and i'll get Krell

Greetings

Is that the Benchmark DAC1 HDR?

[specialized]

Is that the Benchmark DAC1 HDR?

No.. It's Benchmark DAC1 Pre.. HDR have Remote, PRE dont have Remote, but u can use it as preamp as well. As DAC it's very dinamic, detailed, tight...

Greetings

[stuofsci02]

No.. It's Benchmark DAC1 Pre.. HDR have Remote, PRE dont have Remote, but u can use it as preamp as well. As DAC it's very dinamic, detailed, tight...

Greetings

Ok.. This is good because I have been thinking about the DAC 1 HDR, but wasn't sure how good it was as a preamp.

[specialized]

Ok.. This is good because I have been thinking about the DAC 1 HDR, but wasn't sure how good it was as a preamp.

Seem that is very good. Pair it with a bit more laid back setup.Still McIntosh add more music, but if u prefer details and dinamics Benchark is very good. With Rotels pair good (Rotel sound more warmer then krell becouse they have roll of highs. In this Benchark/McIntosh/Krell combination with warm sounding cables sound very impressive..

I think if u are USA located , Benchmark have 30 day money back warranty.

Greetings

[stuofsci02]

Well.. I live in Canada, but Benchmark is literally right across the lake from me... It is a big lake mind you...

[specialized]

Well.. I live in Canada, but Benchmark is literally right across the lake from me... It is a big lake mind you...

It's not bigger then lake between Benchmark location and me

I live in East Europe, and this dac is one of the few things that i bought with only few hours of testing.. If u have a bright setup then this dac can be over bright.. In that case get the Bryston od Bel Canto DAC.If u have some neutral or warm setup, then this DAC can be very good..


Greetings

[alebonau]

have the benchmark as dac in the bedroom system and it is a bit on the brighter/leaner side of things.

re the krell, yeah can imagine not worth exercise sending all the way back to us, but have considered getting the work done locally ? perhaps there is a local authorised krell repairer who will do al lthe work necessary to krell spec and with their parts supplied. be cheaper for them to send the service centre the parts than send your heavy amps back and forth.

otherwise while no big mono blocs, have considered a grunty krell integrated ?

http://www.cepro.com/article/krell_s_300i_integrated_amp_offers_ipod_connectivity/

if can get one for demo especially may give you a point of consideration of nothing else.

in the integrated's the nad m3 integrated if can get hold of one, have also come across as doing a great job with 800 series B&W. other brand is musical fidelity, grunty amps in the new m6 range, from integrated to pre powers, all will drive your speakers adequately. as am sure be other options around in other brands etc as well.

[specialized]

have the benchmark as dac in the bedroom system and it is a bit on the brighter/leaner side of things.

re the krell, yeah can imagine not worth exercise sending all the way back to us, but have considered getting the work done locally ? perhaps there is a local authorised krell repairer who will do al lthe work necessary to krell spec and with their parts supplied. be cheaper for them to send the service centre the parts than send your heavy amps back and forth.

otherwise while no big mono blocs, have considered a grunty krell integrated ?

http://www.cepro.com/article/krell_s_300i_integrated_amp_offers_ipod_connectivity/

if can get one for demo especially may give you a point of consideration of nothing else.

in the integrated's the nad m3 integrated if can get hold of one, have also come across as doing a great job with 800 series B&W. other brand is musical fidelity, grunty amps in the new m6 range, from integrated to pre powers, all will drive your speakers adequately. as am sure be other options around in other brands etc as well.

The problem is that i can't try it here.. I have to order it blindly.. I decided to dont get things blindly.. Benchmark is on the bright side but in same time very tight sounding, and very open. U can tame the brithness with proper cables.. Also in this configuration with McIntosh C2300 as preamp and Krell FPB-300C sound good with proper cables.. With the old cables i used it was too agressive so i borrowed more warm cables.. Also after a few hours of listening i found out too much bass (Before i wanted more bass). Im trying now what gonna happened with sponges in the bass ports of my 803s.
ABout this Krell definitly not worth to send to USA. So if i buy it (only if it's sound really good), i'll have to get a risc.. This peace is played for 5 years. 4-5 years was on stock in the shop.. So maybe i'll have 5 years of worry free play. After that i'll definitly have to solve the recapping localy somehow (i calculate only shipping to usa and back would cost 2000 eur without customs and tax)


Greetings

[alebonau]

The problem is that i can't try it here.. I have to order it blindly.. I decided to dont get things blindly.. Benchmark is on the bright side but in same time very tight sounding, and very open. U can tame the brithness with proper cables.. Also in this configuration with McIntosh C2300 as preamp and Krell FPB-300C sound good with proper cables.. With the old cables i used it was too agressive so i borrowed more warm cables.. Also after a few hours of listening i found out too much bass (Before i wanted more bass). Im trying now what gonna happened with sponges in the bass ports of my 803s.
ABout this Krell definitly not worth to send to USA. So if i buy it (only if it's sound really good), i'll have to get a risc.. This peace is played for 5 years. 4-5 years was on stock in the shop.. So maybe i'll have 5 years of worry free play. After that i'll definitly have to solve the recapping localy somehow (i calculate only shipping to usa and back would cost 2000 eur without customs and tax)


Greetings

this is europe we're talking about. is there no krell dealer driving distance away, surely you guys have cheap flights so can go check some gear out ? sure might not lend you the gear, you could get some indication of alternatives. also if there is a krell dealer a cheap flight away/ consider that you could use them to get your krell serviced, even if you pay freight one way, krell might help in the shipping back to them, after all they have new stock delivered out, whats one more box on one of the containers back I still think though cap replacement is something not insurmoutable for a local service centre. not something have to be shipping half around the world for. personally I think you've still got 5 years or so with the caps. good chance at the shop for 5 years they had it, it just sat dormant

[specialized]

this is europe we're talking about. is there no krell dealer driving distance away, surely you guys have cheap flights so can go check some gear out ? sure might not lend you the gear, you could get some indication of alternatives. also if there is a krell dealer a cheap flight away/ consider that you could use them to get your krell serviced, even if you pay freight one way, krell might help in the shipping back to them, after all they have new stock delivered out, whats one more box on one of the containers back I still think though cap replacement is something not insurmoutable for a local service centre. not something have to be shipping half around the world for. personally I think you've still got 5 years or so with the caps. good chance at the shop for 5 years they had it, it just sat dormant

Nope. Maybe most expensive flights in the world together with a lot of birocracy (customs taxes). I decided if i like the sound enough to take a risk

Anyway today i hope ill have a chance to try DAC1 + MC275 (Without preamp). IF this setup sound good enough it would be much cheaper then DAC1/C2300/KRELL FPB-300C. If not i'll have to take a risk with Krell Setup


Greetings

[specialized]

I finish with my dilemma. I keep the Krell FPB-300C, and sold McIntosh C2300.. Im using it directly with Benchmark DAC1 Pre. It's very very detailed and tight which makes someitmes to be on bright side, but i decided to try this kind of setup.. if in long term it's too harsh i'll put a preamp again, or change the dac (Dac1 works good for my second setup CM1 + rotel RB-1080



Greetings