Subwoofers

[ray5]

Hi! I have a B&W based system. I use a F112 as a sub currently and am thinking of adding another due to the room size. It is 24' by 22' with 13' ceilings with half of the back opening into the breakfast area..
1) Should I go for another F112 or one large one like the Gotham is better?
2) In an ideal setting are identical subs recommended or one can mix and match? For example a 10" driver from another manufacturer?
Thanks,
Ray

[stuofsci02]

What you are using it for (music/movies) will make a difference, but for me I would almost always go for two subs (especially considering you have a great sub already). I would also match them.

I have found two subs give such a smooth response and because you can run them at a lower volume there is less distortion and they can sound very quick and tight.

[Tweir]

One good sub is better than two lesser subs. My opinion...

[wettou]

Hi! I have a B&W based system. I use a F112 as a sub currently and am thinking of adding another due to the room size. It is 24' by 22' with 13' ceilings with half of the back opening into the breakfast area..
1) Should I go for another F112 or one large one like the Gotham is better?
2) In an ideal setting are identical subs recommended or one can mix and match? For example a 10" driver from another manufacturer?
Thanks,
Ray

I had a F113 and decided to buy a second F113 rather that trade and get the Gotham. Two speakers properly positioned will give you better bass through out the room

[Pio]

I had a F113 and decided to buy a second F113 rather that trade and get the Gotham. Two speakers properly positioned will give you better bass through out the room

Good move! The only thing better than 2 subwoofers is 4! No kidding - one sub in each corner of the room evens out the room modes.

[ray5]

So do I hear a consensus that 2 similar or same subs are better than one large one?

[Pio]

So do I hear a consensus that 2 similar or same subs are better than one large one?

ray5 - the more subs you have in one room the better - even the best subwoofer in the world cannot compensate for all the room modes - even with equalization. The reason 2 or more subs are better (even if theyre smaller) is that they excite more room modes and even out the peaks and nulls.

Floyd Toole - v/p acoustical engineering of Harman International recommends minimum of 2 subs mid way along the walls on the side or one in the front and one in the back wall. He prefers 4 subs one in each corner (this is the set up I have and it absolutely ROCKS!) Anyways, he has a great book you can find on amazon.com - if your interested I have a pdf on the subject I can email you that's stuffed with information if you want. Let me know.

Here's the link to Mr. Tooles book - if your seriously into this stuff, its the best $46 you will spend.


( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00H3X5A7XASEPR )

[Pio]

Found the link - check this out - will be very helpful to you...

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_3.pdf

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home/technology/whitepapers/inf-rooms_1.pdf

[ray5]

ray5 - the more subs you have in one room the better - even the best subwoofer in the world cannot compensate for all the room modes - even with equalization. The reason 2 or more subs are better (even if theyre smaller) is that they excite more room modes and even out the peaks and nulls.

Floyd Toole - v/p acoustical engineering of Harman International recommends minimum of 2 subs mid way along the walls on the side or one in the front and one in the back wall. He prefers 4 subs one in each corner (this is the set up I have and it absolutely ROCKS!) Anyways, he has a great book you can find on amazon.com - if your interested I have a pdf on the subject I can email you that's stuffed with information if you want. Let me know.

Here's the link to Mr. Tooles book - if your seriously into this stuff, its the best $46 you will spend.


( http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...00H3X5A7XASEPR )

Sure, send me the PDF.PM sent.

[Tweir]

I still would take one B&W ASW-855 up front center vs 4 ASW610bk. But give me 4 ASW-855 and I would be very happy....

[Pio]

Sure, send me the PDF.PM sent.

Found the links...

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...inf-rooms_3.pdf

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...inf-rooms_1.pdf

[ray5]

Found the links...

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...inf-rooms_3.pdf

http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...inf-rooms_1.pdf

Got them.Thanks

[dukester]

When i ordered my speakers, my dealer was going through a bunch of design upgrades in the form of window treatments, integrated system control, and acoustic treatments. In the middle of all that was our island's one and only certified THX calibrator (i think thats what he called himself). We got on the topic of subs and long story short: multiple subs ideal over single sub. Four subs, at the center of each wall is optimum. If two subs then forward facing in-line with fronts. He should be done with all upgrades, but at the time he let me hear his solo Wilson Audio sub in a 12x14x9 room with Alexandria's up front...damn. Going in next week to audition a stereo REL G1 setup (potential next upgrade). Although i may start with one, my goal is at least a stereo sub set-up...maybe biased but i say two is better than one.

[Tweir]

Other than the reference's quoted above which talk about bass management not soo much subwoofers where else have any of you seen subwoofers installed other than the front wall? In a commercial theater? Or at a concert or night club maybe? From my experience having all the sub's on the front wall will give better extension. When you have a sub on the front wall then the rear the low frequencies will suffer/cancel out. I have seen a system that consisted of 802d for the front and the htm2d for center and 803d's for rear with cam-400's all the way around. The sub was an asw855. We tried with the speakers set to full range and then doing the LFE to each 5 speakers and the asw855 only doing LFE. Then tried crossover settings and found that the 60hz crossover on all speakers was best and the asw855 doing LFE and 60hz and under for all 5 speakers. The bass was completely different. The sub was installed up front center.

[Pio]

Other than the reference's quoted above which talk about bass management not soo much subwoofers where else have any of you seen subwoofers installed other than the front wall? In a commercial theater? Or at a concert or night club maybe? From my experience having all the sub's on the front wall will give better extension. When you have a sub on the front wall then the rear the low frequencies will suffer/cancel out. I have seen a system that consisted of 802d for the front and the htm2d for center and 803d's for rear with cam-400's all the way around. The sub was an asw855. We tried with the speakers set to full range and then doing the LFE to each 5 speakers and the asw855 only doing LFE. Then tried crossover settings and found that the 60hz crossover on all speakers was best and the asw855 doing LFE and 60hz and under for all 5 speakers. The bass was completely different. The sub was installed up front center.

Theaters are large, acoustically treated spaces compared to a typical room in a typical house. Also, keep in mind that subs in a theater aren't always placed directly on the floor like home subs. They're integrated into the wall .

One sub placed anywhere in a room (corner, mid way along a wall, etc) will give good bass to one location and have peaks and nulls elsewhere. Some areas will have an enormous amount of bass, others it will be like there's no bass at all. Multiple subs even these room modes out.

Frequency extension / cancellation is dictated more by the room size, shape corner treatment (bass traps), room furnishing etc than by the amount of low frequency drivers.

Bass is the hardest part of the audio spectrum to get right....

[Tweir]

"Bass is the hardest part of the audio spectrum to get right...." I agree with this....

[ray5]

The F112 is awesome and very visceral. Though with the size of the room I notice that the bass coverage was not uniform. I am not an audiophile but enjoy music and HT. That's why considering another sub. Thought of the Gotham which obviously has a terrific reputation but also a substantial presence. If I go that way I might trade the F112 but rather not and hence thinking of another F112 or F113. The money not spent could go towards a SSP 800!! He He!

[htsteve]

ray,

Knowing you have a Classe amp, I very much like the SSP800 and a second F112/F113. That would definitely kick things up alot.



Hope this helps.

[ray5]

ray,

Knowing you have a Classe amp, I very much like the SSP800 and a second F112/F113. That would definitely kick things up alot.



Hope this helps.

Hi Steve,
I know you have a F112 also. Did you get another one or are you satisfied with one?

[stuofsci02]

The F112 is awesome and very visceral. Though with the size of the room I notice that the bass coverage was not uniform. I am not an audiophile but enjoy music and HT. That's why considering another sub. Thought of the Gotham which obviously has a terrific reputation but also a substantial presence. If I go that way I might trade the F112 but rather not and hence thinking of another F112 or F113. The money not spent could go towards a SSP 800!! He He!

That is basically the main point of multiple subs. A bigger sub won't likely even out the bass response. Multiple subs are the way to do this...

[htsteve]

Hi Steve,
I know you have a F112 also. Did you get another one or are you satisfied with one?

ray,

I have an acoustically treated dedicated HT room that is 11 X 16 X 8. So not anywhere near the size of your space. One F112 is quite excellent in that room. I also have the Mac MC402 on my 802D's. The bass from them is also quite good. So my overall bass response in that room is very good right now.


Could I fit a second F112 in there. I think so, but there are only one or two spots where there is space to place one.


Hope this helps.

[wettou]

Good move! The only thing better than 2 subwoofers is 4! No kidding - one sub in each corner of the room evens out the room modes.

Yes agreed but with two subs you get 90% of the way. So I will stick with two :B

You might want to read this "
"Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" From Toole my reference book :T Look at Chapter 13

http://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Acoustics-Psychoacoustics-Loudspeakers/dp/0240520092/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1288543338&sr=8-4