B&W 805 Diamond Unboxing

[style]

Hi Tim,

look's very gooood! great.

the plasma is 50 or 60"? Is the modell called in Europa kuro 6090h or 5090h?
the "elite" in Europa don't is on catalog...

stand & 805(D or S) I have a 805S and is presenta littke piece that can be mounted at the basis from the stand. is ca. 0,5mm. and made a litte space between the stand basis and the speakers..
made a little air-space: you don't have this piece? (4 x speaker-stand)?
I have received standard with my stand....no moreavialable????

thx Omar

[AV-OCD]

How does the 805d system compare to the others you have had in the room?

I did a short comparison between the 805Di and my last system here: http://htguide.com/forum/showpost.ph...1&postcount=36

[AV-OCD]

Hi Tim,

look's very gooood! great.

the plasma is 50 or 60"? Is the modell called in Europa kuro 6090h or 5090h?
the "elite" in Europa don't is on catalog...

stand & 805(D or S) I have a 805S and is presenta littke piece that can be mounted at the basis from the stand. is ca. 0,5mm. and made a litte space between the stand basis and the speakers..
made a little air-space: you don't have this piece? (4 x speaker-stand)?
I have received standard with my stand....no moreavialable????

thx Omar

That is a 60" Kuro, Model 600M, which is the exact same panel as the Elite Signature, it just doesn't have the ISF calibration mode out of the box (though ISF mode can be unlocked with a firmware update, which I've done). This panel was distributed in the US as a "custom install" model. I love it. It is as close to perfection as I have seen in a flat panel TV.

I did get the little pointed pieces that attach to the top of the 805 stand, but I chose not to use them because they would damage the finish on the bottom of the speaker. I used felt pads instead.

[emig5m]

Dude... after all this, the custom wall mounts, the praise and everything, and you're selling them already? I can't believe it... Well, at least you picked the right net alias, "AV-OCD", heh. :B I think you need to get something real low end and awful sounding like a Best Buy HTIB to bring your ears back down to reality so that you can be happy with anything truly nice, heh. :

[AV-OCD]

What can I say? A man has to find something to do with his spare time and his money.

For some guys it's cars, for others it's watches, or what ever. For me it's burning through AV equipment like it's my job.

[stuofsci02]

What?? Where did he say he was selling? What for?

[hifiguymi]

They're on AudiogoN here - http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc....oni&1273548540 - so if you want them, bid now.

Eric

[stuofsci02]

Oh these are the rears. Are you keeping the mains and centers?

[AV-OCD]

Oh these are the rears. Are you keeping the mains and centers?

I was planning on it, but after auditioning several different pieces of front end gear, I come to the decision that they aren't quite the sound I'm after.

They are magnificent speakers with detail and imaging that are second to none. The bass is tight, punchy, tuneful and much more extended in-room than a speaker this size has any right to have. I just prefer the softer, smoother, more relaxed sound of soft domes. The kind of speakers that fans of B&W would probably find to be an absolute snore.

[scanido]

I was planning on it, but after auditioning several different pieces of front end gear, I come to the decision that they aren't quite the sound I'm after.

They are magnificent speakers with detail and imaging that are second to none. The bass is tight, punchy, tuneful and much more extended in-room than a speaker this size has any right to have. I just prefer the softer, smoother, more relaxed sound of soft domes. The kind of speakers that fans of B&W would probably find to be an absolute snore.

you must be very critical in your music/sound tastes to make moves this frequent and drastic! 8O

[garak]

Selling already?




Did you even finish your custom wall mounts and install the rears yet?

I'm curious, what is the average length of time any one component stays in your system?

[AV-OCD]

Selling already?

Did you even finish your custom wall mounts and install the rears yet?

I'm curious, what is the average length of time any one component stays in your system?

I did finish the wall mount project, but unfortunately, they just looked silly sticking almost two feet out from the back wall. The wife was none too happy with the large black boxes protruding out into the room and I can't say that I was either.

Average time a component stays in my system is about 2 months during the auditon phase, and then about two years if it makes the grade. 8)

[Relentless]

I bet you would like Dynaudio if you prefer the soft tweeter sound. Good luck in the never ending search.

[AV-OCD]

I bet you would like Dynaudio if you prefer the soft tweeter sound. Good luck in the never ending search.

As a matter of fact, Dynaudio is where I'm headed. And if that doesn't work, then Sonus Faber.

[Relentless]

As a matter of fact, Dynaudio is where I'm headed. And if that doesn't work, then Sonus Faber.

I have spent many hours listening to the C4's because my brothers system is based around them. When paired with Simaudio they have amazing midrange clarity and smoothness. Compared to B&W I find there weakness in the bass tightness but they are not lacking in bass it is just more cabinet generated than driver produced. If that makes any sense, I never was able to correctly articulate to words what I am hearing.

[AV-OCD]

I have spent many hours listening to the C4's because my brothers system is based around them. When paired with Simaudio they have amazing midrange clarity and smoothness. Compared to B&W I find there weakness in the bass tightness but they are not lacking in bass it is just more cabinet generated than driver produced. If that makes any sense, I never was able to correctly articulate to words what I am hearing.

Yeah, I know what you are saying about the Dyn bass. It tends to "bloom" a bit and sound a bit more rounded than is completely accurate. I heard that on the Dyn Sapphires when I auditioned them. That bass quality wasn't a deal breaker for me though.

[style]

Hi Tim,

I have just (yesterday) listen a Sonus Faber Cemona M and the new Luito
for the front. the sound very "soft" with the Classe: very interesting.

but the Dynaudio S1.4 or the C220 are very good too.
the htm4d-center is not a good macht with this 2 other brands..

Style

[alebonau]

~ I just prefer the softer, smoother, more relaxed sound of soft domes. The kind of speakers that fans of B&W would probably find to be an absolute snore.

As a matter of fact, Dynaudio is where I'm headed. And if that doesn't work, then Sonus Faber.

oh gawd :E , dynaudio, sonus faber ! snore indeed :Z :B . but this hobby is so subjective, and down to personal taste isnt it ! good luck in the search for the sound your after ! trying to think of other soft sounding speakers !

sounds like the rears sticking out like dogs balls was quite a killer as well. Hopefully what ever range/brand you consider also have a wall mount rear that can blend in

[emig5m]

I have an easier way out... Sell me the diamond tweeters so I can replace my S version aluminum domes and you can buy a shit load of soft domes to try out....lol. :B

[munchis]

Denon receiver not so good for these speakers

Most likely you would've had much better results had you used higher quality amplification instead of an AV receiver. Your 805Di's deserve more, dude

[AV-OCD]

oh gawd :E , dynaudio, sonus faber ! snore indeed :Z :B . but this hobby is so subjective, and down to personal taste isnt it ! good luck in the search for the sound your after ! trying to think of other soft sounding speakers !

sounds like the rears sticking out like dogs balls was quite a killer as well. Hopefully what ever range/brand you consider also have a wall mount rear that can blend in

HA! Go figure that the sizzly Focal guy would find Dyns a snore. Shocker! :W

LOL on the dogs balls comment, but yes, this was a key contributor to my decision. If I were head over heals about the Di's, I would have made it work, but ... well you know the rest.

[AV-OCD]

Most likely you would've had much better results had you used higher quality amplification instead of an AV receiver. Your 805Di's deserve more, dude

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the sound quality of the Denon. Two nights ago I auditioned the Primare SP32 and matching amp ($8500) and compared it directly to the Denon AVR in a blind test. Not knowing which was which, I picked the Denon as the better sounding of the two. Same thing with Denon vs Arcam.

[beden1]

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the sound quality of the Denon. Two nights ago I auditioned the Primare SP32 and matching amp ($8500) and compared it directly to the Denon AVR in a blind test. Not knowing which was which, I picked the Denon as the better sounding of the two. Same thing with Denon vs Arcam.

I want my clicks back for wasting time reading about your B&W ventures, only to learn you didn't believe anything you said about them being so great, and getting others excited about them only to bail within 3-4 weeks.

I'd hate to be your wife, always thinking she is the next to go! ;x(

[alebonau]

HA! Go figure that the sizzly Focal guy would find Dyns a snore. Shocker! :W

LOL on the dogs balls comment, but yes, this was a key contributor to my decision. If I were head over heals about the Di's, I would have made it work, but ... well you know the rest.

haha, yeah being a focal fan, you know my heart lies for a sound with a bit of sparkle in it

that said in my bedroom system I actually run some pmc db1i's, so can love the sound of some "soft domes" too hehe. not sure if have checked out PMCs do try to Tim. never know might be just the ticker ! .

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the sound quality of the Denon. Two nights ago I auditioned the Primare SP32 and matching amp ($8500) and compared it directly to the Denon AVR in a blind test. Not knowing which was which, I picked the Denon as the better sounding of the two. Same thing with Denon vs Arcam.

not suprised there at all, in performance of the denon, and also in how quickly some seem to be to discount the denon. The primare are nice pieces, glad you checked them out. But the denon is a flagship piece too and certainly pretty capable !

[stuofsci02]

I want my clicks back for wasting time reading about your B&W ventures, only to learn you didn't believe anything you said about them being so great, and getting others excited about them only to bail within 3-4 weeks.

I'd hate to be your wife, always thinking she is the next to go! ;x(

I am not sure why you care?

I agree that 3-4 weeks is very short. Every speaker has its weakness. If perfection is what he is looking for I think he has a better chance of finding the holy grail...

[emig5m]

I am not sure why you care?

I agree that 3-4 weeks is very short. Every speaker has its weakness. If perfection is what he is looking for I think he has a better chance of finding the holy grail...

He's obviously never going to be happy with any specific speaker model... Once he gets the sound he wants from the tweeter, some other aspect will be wrong with that particular speaker. His happiness obviously comes from experiencing what different high end speakers do compared to each other. Nothing really wrong with that if that's his hobby and what he wants to do with his earned money. :T (actually it does sound kinda fun and interesting) For me, my 804S IS the perfect speaker (for me). Amazing headphone level detail and clarity, very 3D and enveloping, smooth and natural from top to bottom. The only thing that could possibly make me want to change speakers is not something I don't like about my current speakers, but just out of morbid curiosity. I'll be honest, I'm a little curious about the 804Di and if I where to directly swap out my 804S and replace with the 804Di what differences (if any) I would notice. If they somehow miraculously could let more fine detail through than my 804S (kinda hard to imagine as my point of reference is heaphones) then there would be a chance I would swap out my current speakers (but only if I could get the same % discount I got on my current 800s as I'm simply not willing to pay full price regardless how good they are, lol)

[AV-OCD]

I agree that 3-4 weeks is very short.

What is more crazy, spending a couple of hours auditioning speakers at the dealer showroom to make a decision that you are supposed to stick with for years, or living with the speakers for 4 weeks?

Every speaker has its weakness. If perfection is what he is looking for I think he has a better chance of finding the holy grail...

While it may seem like it, I'm not on some unattainable pursuit of perfection. I am fully aware that no speaker is perfect, and I'm willing to make compromises, but there are a lot of different variables to line up.

Tone, and soundstage width and height are some of the most important aspects to me, while bass extension, soundstage depth, pinpoint imaging are not. I do find, however that I have a pretty low tolerance for what I perceive to be additive deviations from neutral. I would rather there be something missing than to hear something layered onto all of my music.

Anyway, I know that my behavior is baffling to some people, but it really isn't a hobby if you just buy one thing and stick with it, now is it.

All the best,

- Tim

[btf1980]

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My reaction...

Good luck dude. 8)

[Ken49r]

Anyway, I know that my behavior is baffling to some people, but it really isn't a hobby if you just buy one thing and stick with it, now is it.

You make a good point there Tim.

I do wish you would have kept the 805Di a little longer and changed out electronics like you had intended. A second set of stands would have been a better option for the rears keeping everything the same height. But it was a nice effort on the wall-mounts even so.

Ken


edit: I really enjoyed all the effort you put into this thread with photos and all. I wish others would do more of the same. The eye candy always helps.

[AV-OCD]

You make a good point there Tim.

I do wish you would have kept the 805Di a little longer and changed out electronics like you had intended.

Hi Ken -

I posted this over on AVS, but it should offer some insight as to why I didn't pursue a new front end.

I went to the local hi-fi shop tonight with the goal of listening to several different AVRs and prepros.

First, I must say that it was enlightening to say the least. I've never been one to hear large differences between different pieces of front end gear. That changed tonight.

So first up was the Denon AVR4310 vs the Arcam AVR500, connected to Monitor Audio RX8s. Listening was done blind with instant switching between the two performed by the salesman. Within just a couple of switches back and forth, I was surprised to clearly and easily hear a difference, and it was always in favor of the Arcam. The Arcam sounded fuller and more harmonically complete while the Denon sounded comparatively thin and electronic. At this point I was thinking damn, I'm going to have to replace the Denon AVR5308 that I just bought.

Except ....

That this changed entirely when I went to the next demo room over and listened to the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, the Primare SPA22 AVR, and the Primare SP32 / Primare 5CH amp. This time the gear was powering Martin Logan Vistas and later a pair of Sonus Faber Liutos. Testing was still blind and the salesman did the switching on command.

The first comparison was between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare SPA22 AVR. Again the differences were easily noticeable and easily repeatable. However, much to my surprise I consistently chose the Denon as my favorite between these two. The 5308 sounded much like the Arcam in the previous room. Nicely fleshed out, smooth and balanced. The Primare sounded mid-forward and borderline brash at times. I wasn't expecting that considering what I've read about the Primare house sound.

Then I compared the Denon AVR5308 to the Arcam AVR600. This was a closer call and I had to take a break to clear my mind about 15 minutes in. During the first listening session I flip-flopped between the two as to which I preferred. They both sounded quite good, but one sounded more forward through the upper mids, and a bit more "open". The other in comparison was either neutral or a little recessed though the mids depending on the song. When I came back from the break, my preference became clear when I chose music tracks that already had good presence through the mids. On these tracks the forward/open AVR became a bit aggressive. This turned out to be the Arcam AVR600. The bass on the Denon was also fuller, warmer. I could see someone picking either of these depending on the type of sound they were after but I preferred the slightly laid-back, richer bass presentation of the Denon. It sounded less forced to me.

Finally I listened the Primare separates vs the Denon 5308. Again, no contest, I always chose the Denon. The Primare still sounded forward / brash through the mids.

Oh yeah, when I switched to the Sonus Fabers, of course the character of the overall sound changed, but the sound of each of the AVRs remained the same and still chose the Denon as my favorite. The Arcam was still slightly mid forward and the Primare was forward / brash.

So it seems that I really lucked out on my purchase of the Denon AVR5308. I liked it the best out of all of the AVRs I listened to today, and it is in my experience on the smooth / warm side, at least in comparison to the Arcam and Primare.

It was enlightening for me to have gained such clarity on the subject of differences in sound quality between different electronics.

edit: I really enjoyed all the effort you put into this thread with photos and all. I wish others would do more of the same. The eye candy always helps.

Glad to be of service.

[sskim]

.........

Anyway, I know that my behavior is baffling to some people, but it really isn't a hobby if you just buy one thing and stick with it, now is it.

We are all just jealous of you. It would be a dream to have enough disposal dough to be able to do what you do.

For someone like myself, spending close to 3 grands on a pair of speakers (805S with stands) is a BIG commitment. I researched and read so many publication reviews and forum discussions, I was seeing and hearing them before I ever even saw them in person. By the time I went to the local dealer to hear them for the first time, I'm not sure if my ears/head were subjective enough. Thinking back, I think I was hearing what I read more than what I was hearing. So finally you bring these babies home and you hook them up and that's when the reality sets in.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 805S and even after two years, I still smile every time I look at them. They sound fantastic and I've been tweaking and upgrading my other gears around them. Would I still have them if money wasn't the issue? Probably not.

[Skyblue]

We are all just jealous of you. It would be a dream to have enough disposal dough to be able to do what you do.

For someone like myself, spending close to 3 grands on a pair of speakers (805S with stands) is a BIG commitment. I researched and read so many publication reviews and forum discussions, I was seeing and hearing them before I ever even saw them in person. By the time I went to the local dealer to hear them for the first time, I'm not sure if my ears/head were subjective enough. Thinking back, I think I was hearing what I read more than what I was hearing. So finally you bring these babies home and you hook them up and that's when the reality sets in.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 805S and even after two years, I still smile every time I look at them. They sound fantastic and I've been tweaking and upgrading my other gears around them. Would I still have them if money wasn't the issue? Probably not.

Sounds like me and my wife

[SPACEMANRICK]

Hi Ken -

I posted this over on AVS, but it should offer some insight as to why I didn't pursue a new front end.

I went to the local hi-fi shop tonight with the goal of listening to several different AVRs and prepros.

First, I must say that it was enlightening to say the least. I've never been one to hear large differences between different pieces of front end gear. That changed tonight.

So first up was the Denon AVR4310 vs the Arcam AVR500, connected to Monitor Audio RX8s. Listening was done blind with instant switching between the two performed by the salesman. Within just a couple of switches back and forth, I was surprised to clearly and easily hear a difference, and it was always in favor of the Arcam. The Arcam sounded fuller and more harmonically complete while the Denon sounded comparatively thin and electronic. At this point I was thinking damn, I'm going to have to replace the Denon AVR5308 that I just bought.

Except ....

That this changed entirely when I went to the next demo room over and listened to the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, the Primare SPA22 AVR, and the Primare SP32 / Primare 5CH amp. This time the gear was powering Martin Logan Vistas and later a pair of Sonus Faber Liutos. Testing was still blind and the salesman did the switching on command.

The first comparison was between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare SPA22 AVR. Again the differences were easily noticeable and easily repeatable. However, much to my surprise I consistently chose the Denon as my favorite between these two. The 5308 sounded much like the Arcam in the previous room. Nicely fleshed out, smooth and balanced. The Primare sounded mid-forward and borderline brash at times. I wasn't expecting that considering what I've read about the Primare house sound.

Then I compared the Denon AVR5308 to the Arcam AVR600. This was a closer call and I had to take a break to clear my mind about 15 minutes in. During the first listening session I flip-flopped between the two as to which I preferred. They both sounded quite good, but one sounded more forward through the upper mids, and a bit more "open". The other in comparison was either neutral or a little recessed though the mids depending on the song. When I came back from the break, my preference became clear when I chose music tracks that already had good presence through the mids. On these tracks the forward/open AVR became a bit aggressive. This turned out to be the Arcam AVR600. The bass on the Denon was also fuller, warmer. I could see someone picking either of these depending on the type of sound they were after but I preferred the slightly laid-back, richer bass presentation of the Denon. It sounded less forced to me.

Finally I listened the Primare separates vs the Denon 5308. Again, no contest, I always chose the Denon. The Primare still sounded forward / brash through the mids.

Oh yeah, when I switched to the Sonus Fabers, of course the character of the overall sound changed, but the sound of each of the AVRs remained the same and still chose the Denon as my favorite. The Arcam was still slightly mid forward and the Primare was forward / brash.

So it seems that I really lucked out on my purchase of the Denon AVR5308. I liked it the best out of all of the AVRs I listened to today, and it is in my experience on the smooth / warm side, at least in comparison to the Arcam and Primare.

It was enlightening for me to have gained such clarity on the subject of differences in sound quality between different electronics.




Glad to be of service.

Half the fun is in the pursuit of looking for ways to improve your system and in the looking.....enjoy your next system upgrade :T

[AV-OCD]

We are all just jealous of you. It would be a dream to have enough disposal dough to be able to do what you do.

For someone like myself, spending close to 3 grands on a pair of speakers (805S with stands) is a BIG commitment. I researched and read so many publication reviews and forum discussions, I was seeing and hearing them before I ever even saw them in person. By the time I went to the local dealer to hear them for the first time, I'm not sure if my ears/head were subjective enough. Thinking back, I think I was hearing what I read more than what I was hearing. So finally you bring these babies home and you hook them up and that's when the reality sets in.

Don't get me wrong, I love my 805S and even after two years, I still smile every time I look at them. They sound fantastic and I've been tweaking and upgrading my other gears around them. Would I still have them if money wasn't the issue? Probably not.

No need to be jealous, I have to make a fair number of financial compromises to afford what I do in this hobby. Its all just about priorities, and for me it is audio.

It also helps that I have friends in the AV biz, or friends that know people in the AV biz, which allows me to get most of what I buy at a good enough price that the losses are low if I chose to sell something off.

[ShadowZA]

Tim, I find your adventures and experiences to be quite interesting and do enjoy whatever it is that you have to say. I hope that whatever future experiences you may have, that you can get to share them with us on this forum (maybe in the audio hideout). Anyways ... GOOD LUCK out there. It's a minefield as you know. :T

[beden1]

I think you may need to start concentrating your efforts towards building a two channel system. Here are two links where you can shop the higher end brands. You may never find your ultimate sound within the domains of multi-channel, where all of us are faced with compromises in the end.

http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/speakerlist.htm

http://www.highendpalace.com/

[Relentless]

If you know your habits towards audio and change.... I have to ask, why did you not just start with the mains and listen for a month or two before going all out? Resale value would be equivalent.


I only say this because I was like you with car audio competition. You could not audition anything in your car because it had to be properly installed to sound correct anyway, so it was a leap of faith and it ends up costing 3X what it should in the end. I know it is a hobby and the thrill of the chase, but when do you get to sit back and enjoy the music instead of constantly evaluating? All my hobbies are mega expensive.... Cars, Motorcycle racing, Boats, High End audio. You get to a point of relative satisfaction and move on to something else. There is no perfection, there is always something better, someone faster, a nicer house or watch..... not an argument, just another point of view.

[Orb]

.... I know it is a hobby and the thrill of the chase, but when do you get to sit back and enjoy the music instead of constantly evaluating? All my hobbies are mega expensive.... Cars, Motorcycle racing, Boats, High End audio. You get to a point of relative satisfaction and move on to something else. There is no perfection, there is always something better, someone faster, a nicer house or watch..... not an argument, just another point of view.

I think you will find Tim did enjoy the WB/Classe setup, and probably expected the B&Ws to last longer than they did - in other words enjoy them then look to replace them possibly within a year or a bit.
Moving forward Tim has mentioned about possibly focusing on 2-channel initially now before buying a full set.

The challenge is that the WB Discos when connected with the right amps (pre-pro-power/integrated) is a mighty challenging speaker for its price.
And that is coming from a B&W fan here who owned the 803s (also with the right amps) and several other B&W speakers.

Cheers
Orb

[AV-OCD]

Tim, I find your adventures and experiences to be quite interesting and do enjoy whatever it is that you have to say. I hope that whatever future experiences you may have, that you can get to share them with us on this forum (maybe in the audio hideout). Anyways ... GOOD LUCK out there. It's a minefield as you know. :T

ShadowZA -

Thanks for the kind words. My process seems to generate some very divergent reactions, and I have to admit, I can see how I come across as the little boy who cried wolf with my love it / hate it reactions to the gear that I try. But that is just part of the process. As they say, you don't really know someone until you have lived with them for a while.

I can honestly say that it was a much closer call with the 805Di's than most though. They are fun speakers and for the person that likes a very detailed and vivid sound, I can't imagine much better. They never crossed the line into an aggressive or harsh sound, they just didn't have the smooth / sweet character I prefer. I think that pairing them up with something like Audio Research would have solved that issue for me, but that is not an option. I like my surround sound too much.

Thanks again,

- Tim

[AV-OCD]

I think you may need to start concentrating your efforts towards building a two channel system. Here are two links where you can shop the higher end brands. You may never find your ultimate sound within the domains of multi-channel, where all of us are faced with compromises in the end.

http://www.higherfi.com/spkrlist/speakerlist.htm

http://www.highendpalace.com/

Thanks for the suggestion Beden. This would seem to be the logical choice, and I've considered it, but I have a different take on the matter of multi-channel vs 2Ch than it seems most do.

I'm not interested in separate 2CH rig because for me, I expect vocals and music within movie soundtracks to sound as smooth and natural as they do when I listen to music.

The only difference between a movie system and music system for me is the number of speakers, the dynamic capability of the system, and off-axis response.

[Pedro]

I have spent many hours listening to the C4's because my brothers system is based around them. When paired with Simaudio they have amazing midrange clarity and smoothness. Compared to B&W I find there weakness in the bass tightness but they are not lacking in bass it is just more cabinet generated than driver produced. If that makes any sense, I never was able to correctly articulate to words what I am hearing.

Exactly. The C4 is just fine in mid and highs so integrated. The bass doesn´t have the same tight and volume as the big BWs (i mean 801D and 800D). When comparing with the 801D there was no doubt i would choose them over C4. The 801D have that huge bass i was missing at C4, but with the same natural mid and highs. There´s some misunderstanding about B&W treble, when you achieve the top models (800D and 801D) this don´t exist, because they are incredible flat, it´s not just the tweeter folks, the frequency response is important. If you look at their curve response you will notice no peak at high frequencies. With 802D and below models (even diamond) you will note some peaks, also at Dyn 5.4 which have unforgiven mids and highs capable to cause some fatigue.

[AV-OCD]

If you know your habits towards audio and change.... I have to ask, why did you not just start with the mains and listen for a month or two before going all out? Resale value would be equivalent.

I did just this with my recent purchase of the Canton Vento Ref speakers. I even held off on buying the stands to limit loses. This was also the plan for the B&Ws, but one of my character flaws is that I can be overly optimistic in my decisions and sometimes too hasty as a result. I'll by living with the Dynaudio C1s for a while before committing buying the center and surrounds.

I only say this because I was like you with car audio competition. You could not audition anything in your car because it had to be properly installed to sound correct anyway, so it was a leap of faith and it ends up costing 3X what it should in the end.

Yes, so you understand.

I know it is a hobby and the thrill of the chase, but when do you get to sit back and enjoy the music instead of constantly evaluating?

You have a skewed image of my behavior because all you see are the times that I have changed equipment condensed down into a series of posts. When I'm enjoying my system, I, like most find no need to post. I was tickled pink with the Wilson Benesch / Classe system, I just got it in my head that I would like try to do as well on a smaller budget. I still think this is possible, it just might take a while to find the right match.

All my hobbies are mega expensive.... Cars, Motorcycle racing, Boats, High End audio. You get to a point of relative satisfaction and move on to something else. There is no perfection, there is always something better, someone faster, a nicer house or watch..... not an argument, just another point of view.

Despite what may seem like evidence to the contrary, I'm quite capable of compromise, and I expect to make some, but they have to be in the right places. For instance, I prefer that a sound system errs by omitting something rather than adding something. I can also give up pinpoint imaging for an expansive soundstage and I have no need for speakers that are capable of 20Hz response since I always use a sub.

If you look at my history of posts over on AVS, you'll see that you and I are on the same page. There is no perfection, and many "upgrades" are really nothing more than a change in perspective that is initially perceived as better, when it is really just different. Still, there has to be some fundamental level of compatibility for it to be a keeper .... for a while. :P

[AV-OCD]

Exactly. The C4 is just fine in mid and highs so integrated. The bass doesn´t have the same tight and volume as the big BWs (i mean 801D and 800D). When comparing with the 801D there was no doubt i would choose them over C4. The 801D have that huge bass i was missing at C4, but with the same natural mid and highs. There´s some misunderstanding about B&W treble, when you achieve the top models (800D and 801D) this don´t exist, because they are incredible flat, it´s not just the tweeter folks, the frequency response is important. If you look at their curve response you will notice no peak at high frequencies. With 802D and below models (even diamond) you will note some peaks, also at Dyn 5.4 which have unforgiven mids and highs capable to cause some fatigue.

When I auditioned the Dynaudio S5.4 in my room, they had the tightest, most visceral bass of any speaker that has come before or after them. But I agree, both the S5.4 and the S3.4 had a glare through the midrange that was not all that pleasant. The Sapphires were great in the mids and highs, but weak in the bass.

[Ken49r]

Tim,

I thought you had everything on track with the Classe / Wilson Benesch system, only because the front end matched the speakers capabilities and vice versa. The Denon doesn't seem to be in the same league as Classe or McIntosh.

I have the 805/HTM4 paired with Rotel 10xx series gear and compared to the McIntosh system my dealer had his 805's hooked up to, the sound is night and day difference. They came alive on the Mc gear but with Rotel the 805 is too relaxed for my taste.

Do you think on the speakers you kept the performance level equal to its replacement but on the front end you compromised a bit to much?

Ken

[alebonau]

Hi Ken -

I posted this over on AVS, but it should offer some insight as to why I didn't pursue a new front end.

I went to the local hi-fi shop tonight with the goal of listening to several different AVRs and prepros.

First, I must say that it was enlightening to say the least. I've never been one to hear large differences between different pieces of front end gear. That changed tonight.

So first up was the Denon AVR4310 vs the Arcam AVR500, connected to Monitor Audio RX8s. Listening was done blind with instant switching between the two performed by the salesman. Within just a couple of switches back and forth, I was surprised to clearly and easily hear a difference, and it was always in favor of the Arcam. The Arcam sounded fuller and more harmonically complete while the Denon sounded comparatively thin and electronic. At this point I was thinking damn, I'm going to have to replace the Denon AVR5308 that I just bought.

Except ....

That this changed entirely when I went to the next demo room over and listened to the Denon AVR5308, the Arcam AVR600, the Primare SPA22 AVR, and the Primare SP32 / Primare 5CH amp. This time the gear was powering Martin Logan Vistas and later a pair of Sonus Faber Liutos. Testing was still blind and the salesman did the switching on command.

The first comparison was between the Denon AVR5308 and the Primare SPA22 AVR. Again the differences were easily noticeable and easily repeatable. However, much to my surprise I consistently chose the Denon as my favorite between these two. The 5308 sounded much like the Arcam in the previous room. Nicely fleshed out, smooth and balanced. The Primare sounded mid-forward and borderline brash at times. I wasn't expecting that considering what I've read about the Primare house sound.

Then I compared the Denon AVR5308 to the Arcam AVR600. This was a closer call and I had to take a break to clear my mind about 15 minutes in. During the first listening session I flip-flopped between the two as to which I preferred. They both sounded quite good, but one sounded more forward through the upper mids, and a bit more "open". The other in comparison was either neutral or a little recessed though the mids depending on the song. When I came back from the break, my preference became clear when I chose music tracks that already had good presence through the mids. On these tracks the forward/open AVR became a bit aggressive. This turned out to be the Arcam AVR600. The bass on the Denon was also fuller, warmer. I could see someone picking either of these depending on the type of sound they were after but I preferred the slightly laid-back, richer bass presentation of the Denon. It sounded less forced to me.

Finally I listened the Primare separates vs the Denon 5308. Again, no contest, I always chose the Denon. The Primare still sounded forward / brash through the mids.

Oh yeah, when I switched to the Sonus Fabers, of course the character of the overall sound changed, but the sound of each of the AVRs remained the same and still chose the Denon as my favorite. The Arcam was still slightly mid forward and the Primare was forward / brash.

So it seems that I really lucked out on my purchase of the Denon AVR5308. I liked it the best out of all of the AVRs I listened to today, and it is in my experience on the smooth / warm side, at least in comparison to the Arcam and Primare.

It was enlightening for me to have gained such clarity on the subject of differences in sound quality between different electronics.




Glad to be of service.

great read !

and thats the thing tim, it is your choice in the end, no real need to justify to others mate. you'll be listening to it in the end. your not paying the cash for someone else to listen too :