803D/HTM2D - Select Large or Small?

[speakerboy]

I'm calibrating my system with the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. The Audyssey calibration is setting my 803D/HTM2D as LARGE and my rears as SMALL. My question is...will it sound better if I set the 803D/HTM2D to SMALL as well to let the sub handle all the speakers? I have a Fathom F113 sub.

[scanido]

set all to small.

[style]

is a personal taste and your room sound!!


I have at big! with small the sub go work more.

[boarder1995]

I've got my mains (803D) set to large and center (HTM2D) set to small. I've got dual SVS Ultra13's. I may try mains to small at some point, but it sounds so good for now.

[style]

Halllo,

the sub Fathom F113 is great and I dont know what give you....

but I will set all the speaker or small or big.

Or go try at firt with all large and later all small. then is your taste. :T

Style

[emig5m]

is a personal taste and your room sound!!

+1000. I think I've experimented with sub crossover more than I've experimented with any other setting in my system (because honestly, I think integrating a sub seamlessly is the hardest thing to do, but when done right, can be very beneficial since you can place speakers for best imaging and the bass unit for best/smoothest bass response). Where I have my systems front end now on the narrow wall instead of the longer wall I noticed that I have a ever so slightly room mode in the bass, even more noticeable with multichannel where the bass gets a little lop-sided sounding (phasing issue maybe?) -- where boosting the crossover to the sub up to 100Hz from ALL speakers set to small results in a much flatter and smoother bass response. Crossing over ALL the speakers set to small at the same and higher frequency than I normally would also seems to clear up the mids and highs greatly for me since the bass isn't getting in the way (but yet still seems more powerful and solid).

I've got my mains (803D) set to large and center (HTM2D) set to small. I've got dual SVS Ultra13's. I may try mains to small at some point, but it sounds so good for now.

That's what it's all about -- experimenting from time to time even when you where happy before because you never know what free performance boost is waiting around the corner all from free and simple experimentation! I've learned more in the past couple months with experimenting than I learned in the past 16 years of just setting up a system and being happy with it and never trying new settings. :T

[theblue]

and just because nobody said it in black and white:

If you select small, the speaker in question does not play frequencies below the sub crossover point, if you select large then it will play the speaker full range.

the small / large has nothing to do with the physical size of the speaker.

[emig5m]

and just because nobody said it in black and white:

If you select small, the speaker in question does not play frequencies below the sub crossover point, if you select large then it will play the speaker full range.

the small / large has nothing to do with the physical size of the speaker.

Yes, exactly. They should rename it to "full range" or "crossover to sub".

[theblue]

or in a perfect world have it be an adjustable number that starts at full range and goes up to 120 with one final click that then says "x-over at sub freq"

I can imagine that some speakers might work best set somewhere below the sub x-over but not full range.

[SRT-10 Viper]

I've tested this in the last couple days... I have 800Ds front, HTM1D center, 802N Rears and 2 JL F113 subs. I use the keep my settings all small and cross xover at 50Hz. For the test, I set up the same configuration small at 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz, and 80Hz. Then cycled through each configuration while listening to a music br... I ended up liking 60Hz best in my room. I then tested that against speakers all set to large with the subs (ebass in classe 800) and still like all set to small with 60hz... Net is, test, test, test... then decide for your room and setup.

[wettou]

I've tested this in the last couple days... I have 800Ds front, HTM1D center, 802N Rears and 2 JL F113 subs. I use the keep my settings all small and cross xover at 50Hz. For the test, I set up the same configuration small at 50Hz, 60Hz, 70Hz, and 80Hz. Then cycled through each configuration while listening to a music br... I ended up liking 60Hz best in my room. I then tested that against speakers all set to large with the subs (ebass in classe 800) and still like all set to small with 60hz... Net is, test, test, test... then decide for your room and setup.

Yes I agree testing is best, for movies I have THX recommendations 80HZ for music 40Hz. I need to get a second JL F113.

I can't believe that with the 800D you even need subs?

I have been thinking three 800Di in the front ?

[MikeFL52]

or in a perfect world have it be an adjustable number that starts at full range and goes up to 120 with one final click that then says "x-over at sub freq"

I can imagine that some speakers might work best set somewhere below the sub x-over but not full range.

I believe that is what systems such as Anthem's ARC and Audyssey (PRO) do.

[style]

Hallo,

I have a set with the 803D with the SSP800, dont xovered, at 50hz.

another "standart"with the 80ht. but B&W say me that a 50-60hz. with the 803D is a good setting.

of course test after test too found the best setting....

in every case large / dont xovered (SSP800) for me is me is the best for the sound.

Like wrote in another room with the setup "small" can give you a differente resultat......

Style

[WelshOne]

When people eventually acknowledge that the sound (usually bass) they are hearing is distortion, they then start appreciating EQ, crossovers, speaker positioning, room treatment and qaulity subwoofers.

I have reached the point where for AV alone, I am questioning whether even having large B&W speakers for HT in a normal domestic environment is the right option?

For HT, the considerably cheaper M&K 150 series demo's ive experienced have destroyed every B&W demo ive ever had, and this is coming from an 803D. HTM2D, 805S owner.

SMALL setting all the way, unless you have the space to combat room modes/reverb, the amps to drive the extra demanding loads, and at least 800/801D's............IMO of course

[boarder1995]

WelshOne, you're totally wrong, B&W's the best, M&K are losers! Ok, whew, thought this B&W forum was about to get real nasty up in here. (jkjkjkjkjk)

Ya, those M&K150's are really clean and very forward sounding. Not my choice for enjoying music, but in movies they're very understandable and can play loud. With the right sub setup, they make a killer AV system. I was actually thinking of a picking up a used pair recently, since I first lusted after them about 15 years ago. I also lusted after B&W, so they won out. M&K - great little speakers though.

[WelshOne]

WelshOne, you're totally wrong, B&W's the best, M&K are losers! Ok, whew, thought this B&W forum was about to get real nasty up in here. (jkjkjkjkjk)

Ya, those M&K150's are really clean and very forward sounding. Not my choice for enjoying music, but in movies they're very understandable and can play loud. With the right sub setup, they make a killer AV system. I was actually thinking of a picking up a used pair recently, since I first lusted after them about 15 years ago. I also lusted after B&W, so they won out. M&K - great little speakers though.

LOL, well, B&W's are the best looking, and for music they are incredible, love them, thats why im still looking at them as I type!

Unfortunately I have to move all my kit into a room which is 4x2.8m in time, and referring back to my point re postitioning and room acoustics, im not sure they will have the space they deserve, which saddens me somewhat. I would assume we are all after the most accurate/best sound we can acheive, and for me IMO, big hefty B&W's are not the best choice in normal domestic living rooms. Designs like the M&K with THX xovers at 80hz have a lot to answer for, and they didnt arrive at this conclusion by accident.

The M&K's will be the perfect choice for me in my situation, combined with their excellent subwoofers, and the saving I would recoup when selling the B&W's could buy a nice projector, seats, room treatments etc etc?

I have lusted after these speakers for 10 years, bought them last year, but now after a lot of research and demo's, I have a different opinion and understanding of HT.

I would be happy to trade off the absolute accuracy/performance of a well designed HT system for these B&W's, but unfortunately I may not have a choice?

Bummer :cry:

[Relentless]

I'm calibrating my system with the Denon AVP-A1HDCI. The Audyssey calibration is setting my 803D/HTM2D as LARGE and my rears as SMALL. My question is...will it sound better if I set the 803D/HTM2D to SMALL as well to let the sub handle all the speakers? I have a Fathom F113 sub.

Crossover at 80, that is the standard and let the JL do all of the low end work for movies. The HTM2D would produce the best mids(voices) when it does not have to go to full excursion for the bass reproduction. Well in theory anyway. Auto speaker calibration gets fooled by the room interactions sometimes, especially when it comes to sub distance.

[JargonGR]

I will agree with the rest here. It all comes down to your room response and even personal preference.

I use 800Ds/HTM1D and 4X 803Ds + 2 Subs with 2X 15" drivers each. I also use a Velodyne SMS-1 and another BASS EQ unit the BASSIS (amazing) from Marchand.

After measuring the bass response of my main speakers I realised I had a null at 32Hz! What I did and it improved my sound tremendously was to cross all speakers at 40Hz and let the subs take over from there in music + the LFE in movies.

I am really happy with how it sounds but you know what? I will not stop experimenting since playing with EQs is so much fun for me! The next step though will be some room treatments.

Go play around with different settings and take note of the changes. It helps if you have a measuring tool.

[theblue]

Crossover at 80, that is the standard and let the JL do all of the low end work for movies.

80 is the THX spec and widely considered a good place to crossover cheap speakers or when you don't know what you are doing.

if you know what you are doing there is no logical reason to assume 80 is anything but a random number that may or may not be good.

[JargonGR]

The number 80Hz was also chosen since it is the highest frequency bass that its direction is non detectable according to group tests and it holds truth.

So crossing the speakers there does not betray the subwoofer position and that is how Tom Hollman (ΤΗΧ man - ΤΗΧ= Tomlinson Hollman Experience) arrived at this figure.

However, if one can measure the Bass response in the room somehow then the best crossover frequency might of course be different.

[WelshOne]

So who here uses REW then? I dont see it mentioned that often?

Its been a valuable tool for me in setting up my sytem, and its free!

[Relentless]

80 is the THX spec and widely considered a good place to crossover cheap speakers or when you don't know what you are doing.

if you know what you are doing there is no logical reason to assume 80 is anything but a random number that may or may not be good.

you forgot this part of that statement...."The HTM2D would produce the best mids(voices) when it does not have to go to full excursion for the bass reproduction"... of coarse you should try them all and see which works best. I think the rule of thumb is not to crossover less than double the lowest frequency response of the speaker. I think that would put you around 66 for the HTM2D........ but keep in mind I don't know what I am doing

[wettou]

but keep in mind I don't know what I am doing

I believe you are an electrical engineer yes? So hopefully you know aht your talking about :B

Why

I think the rule of thumb is not to crossover less than double the lowest frequency response of the speaker. I think that would put you around 66 for the HTM2D

Also sorry if I asked that question before but what do you think about bi-amping?

[Relentless]

what do you think about bi-amping?

I have never tried it. I thought about trying it because I read an opinion on the 800D's comparing the cam400 vs ca5200 and this person preferred the Bi-Amp setup. I seem to lean towards what I have read in a post.....when pushed you will reach the limits of the amp running the bass drivers and only be using a small fraction of the amp running the mid and tweeter.

Many people believe if you are not using an active crossover then bi-amping is a waste. I personally would go with the largest monos that your speakers or wallet can handle in whatever flavor of amp you prefer and Bi-Wire(not necessary just a personal preference). Then spend some money on some dedicated lines

[wettou]

I have never tried it. I thought about trying it because I read an opinion on the 800D's comparing the cam400 vs ca5200 and this person preferred the Bi-Amp setup. I seem to lean towards what I have read in a post.....when pushed you will reach the limits of the amp running the bass drivers and only be using a small fraction of the amp running the mid and tweeter.

Abbey road bi-amp their 800D :T

Many people believe if you are not using an active crossover then bi-amping is a waste. I personally would go with the largest monos that your speakers or wallet can handle in whatever flavor of amp you prefer and Bi-Wire(not necessary just a personal preference). Then spend some money on some dedicated lines

My problem is I already have a CA-5200 and I have three 802D in the front and two 802N in the back. Since I don't want to throw away my CA-5200 I was thinking to get a CA-3200 to bi-amp the front?

I don't have room or cash for 3 CA-400M

[Relentless]

Abbey road bi-amp their 800D :T



My problem is I already have a CA-5200 and I have three 802D in the front and two 802N in the back. Since I don't want to throw away my CA-5200 I was thinking to get a CA-3200 to bi-amp the front?

I don't have room or cash for 3 CA-400M

Your best bet is to try it in your system first and if the improvement is worth it to you go for it now and save up for the three Cam400's and sell off the multichannel amps in the future. It will always be cheaper to just go all out right from the start but for many, including myself, you have to build your way up. You may find that Bi-amping is not that big of an improvement and then you can just wait until you can get the mono's and not feel like you are missing out.

[wettou]

Your best bet is to try it in your system first and if the improvement is worth it to you go for it now and save up for the three Cam400's and sell off the multichannel amps in the future. It will always be cheaper to just go all out right from the start but for many, including myself, you have to build your way up. You may find that Bi-amping is not that big of an improvement and then you can just wait until you can get the mono's and not feel like you are missing out.

Hum well of course even better would be the CT-600M :B

[SoundEngine355]

Large is full range, small let's you cross the freq at say 80hz and then let the sub do the rest. I presonally prefer the sub crossed in at 45hz. What does the 803 go down to?38hz? Set it to small and cross in at 42 or 45hz and give it a test.

Large and small is misleading and confusing

[SoundEngine355]

Abbey road bi-amp their 800D :T



My problem is I already have a CA-5200 and I have three 802D in the front and two 802N in the back. Since I don't want to throw away my CA-5200 I was thinking to get a CA-3200 to bi-amp the front?

I don't have room or cash for 3 CA-400M

I biamped my 800Ds and at 75-85db could not tell a difference. Used the m400s too.

[Tony1]

Thread is very helpful. I have a surround system (4)805s and htm2d for a center and 825 sub. When I set my speakers to small the sound is very thin and does not sound as good when in full range. In full range I get a little too much bass due to my room size. My crossover is set at 80, will experiment with different settings people have mentioned here to find the sweet spot. Thanks :T

[Relentless]

I am curious how are movies mixed crossover wise? Do they do it in full range and LFE only to the sub?

[wettou]

I biamped my 800Ds and at 75-85db could not tell a difference. Used the m400s too.

So you are saying it is not worth it?

[speakerboy]

Thanks for everyone's input. I used to have F/C set to LARGE and S/SB set to SMALL with 80Hz crossover. After a recent Audyssey calibration, I now have all 7 speakers set to SMALL with 60Hz crossover. Since my front speakers are positioned wider than normal (2.40 screen), having the extra 60Hz-80Hz frequencies coming from all the speakers sounded better and filled the room better, if that makes any sense. The bass is much tighter I think.

[Aiden]

Yes I agree testing is best, for movies I have THX recommendations 80HZ for music 40Hz. I need to get a second JL F113.

I can't believe that with the 800D you even need subs?

I have been thinking three 800Di in the front ?

You know, in some countries it is a sin to have only one F113. :dothewave:

[theblue]

I'm not one to build home speakers, but for the cost of 2 x F113, can you imagine the home made subwoofer you could build with money left over to buy a processor / EQ for it?

[wettou]

You know, in some countries it is a sin to have only one F113. :dothewave:

Oh well I am a sinner! :B