802D vs 803D - A personal impression

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I got my local B&W dealer to set-up an extended, private comparison between the 803D and the 802Ds... Same amp. music and room... The system was based on McIntosh 602 amps (600W a channel) with the McIntosh pre and CD player. Incidentally I liked the amp but felt that the pre and CD did not do the speaker justice.

Anyway, I found the 803Ds disappointing. I listened to them first and could hear a mild boxy closed in effect on the midrange which I recognised from the old 803 and 804 series. They had serious bass though and sweet treble (the D series tweeters are up there with the best I have ever heard!)

We switched to the 802Ds. Instant very substantial improvement. The midrange colouration was gone, replaced with a sweet lucid midrange that blended perfectly into the treble. Oh - and the stereo imaging was much improved - you could get a seamless stereo image even standing effectively between the two speakers to change a CD - it was still exactly as if the singer was in front of you, just feet away. And everything was just cleaner… Amazing...

I was also lucky enough to quickly hear the 800Ds (wow) and the HTM2D and HTM1D (travelling and on 1 week loan to the store)... Now this is the rub (and it is an expensive one). For my ears the Marlin head on the 802Ds and up makes such a big difference that I couldn’t consider the 803D but this also seems to apply to the HTM2D - which while a perfect match for the 803D still has that mild boxiness... You see where I am going... Of course the HTM1D with the Marlin head is a perfect match acoustically for the 802D but so expensive you could cry.... but in HT the centre is the most important speaker… An the HTM1D is so expensive and so ugly…

At home I started to worry... :twisted:

Back again for another session... In HT the HTM2D blended in surprisingly well to the 802Ds... However on music (Prologic IIx) the vocal difference between the two was (for my ears) marked with noticeable differences in tonal quality and transparency as sound panned between the speakers. Quick swap for the HTM1D. Stunning. If anything better than the 802D on music vocals. Switch to HT and the difference was also scary - just how much better the HTM1D locked in the action on the screen.... I didn't know HT could be that realsitic - literally people walking about on the screen sounded as if they were walking in the room with you.

What I also learnt form this is how fussy my listening has become - instant judgement on colouration etc on one song - I knew the 803Ds weren't what I was after (two years ago I would have been loving them). It seems that my brain and ear are in collusion to spend too much! I'll be saving for years at this rate... :B

Very frustrating... :uhoh:

I need to do some serious thinking... :banghead:

Or perhaps - sell a kidney :banana:

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

Hey Geoff,

Let me ask your opinion. I have 802D's coming and have currently the HTM3S for the center. 804S' for surrounds. ASW 825 Sub. I don't listen to SACD's or DVD-a at all 98 percent of music is Stereo CD HDCD (2 speakers) and use the Center speaker for only TV satellite and DVDs. Do you think its important to change the HTM3S for the HTM2D with this configuration ? I guess what I'm thinking is that for HT and TV it might not be that important. Then again. what do you think.

Also, while having 802D's for stereo why bother using the 804S' and sub and center for prologic at all ? The 802D's are enough.

Misterdoggy

[jericho]

Hey Geoff,


I think everyone has sometimes problems to make a choice.I have the new 800D with the HTM-1D (Hummer).I also ordered as you probably know a pair of ASW 875 but they promised me I would have them around october.My problem is I cann't decide which amplifier to drive the set.I doubt between McIntosh and Classé.Some say Classé Ca-M400 is much better than the Mac's MC-501 or MC-1201 others just advice Mac or Krell.I cann't get out and here in Belgium it's not obvious to go to a store and do a test with the different amplifiers.First of all we only have one dealer Mac for Belgium, and another one for Classé.Smaller stores don't even know what your talking about if you ask for Krell.If I want Krell I have to go to the Netherlands.My problem is I intend to buy the processor and the amplifiers all from the same series.
When you look at Classé, the new DVD player is not SACD compatible (first it was, now it isn't).I had contact with Classé and they are not planning a SACD in the Delta line.Classé's processor is also difficult to update if new sound formats are being introduced.McIntosh has no HDMI or DVI out on the DVD player, and you cann't bi amplify with the MC-501 because one terminal is 8 ohm, the next is 4 and the last is 2 ohm. Talking about Krell I was told that the Class A line is going to change very soon and the processor they have is probably one of the best but I don't like the look, it's just a cheap Kenwood

[Andorian]

Hi,

You pinpointed exactly towards the things, I have noticed wonderfull highs, congested mids (when the songs/music get busy), and a tight bass.
I have my 803Ds for two months now (break-in is done).
I loved them, until I heared they them head to head with 802D,
my dealer got a pair of travelling 802D, 800D for demos,
Ok, 800D is better but you need too much power and a castle with a ballroom.
That Marlan head isnt just decoration,
I know my cristmass present to myself :W .
Andor.

[sikoniko]

upgrading is such a slippery slow. you change one thing, and then there are others that have to be changed to keep up.

i didnt like the 803D's when i heard them after hearing the 802d. they sounded highly colored.

[jim777]

I'm happy that I didn't listen to the 800 series at all
Happy with my 703's on McIntosh... for now :twisted:

[Jeff]

This is one reason I went with the N802's rather than the new 803D's. Although the Nautilus line is now "old technology" the Marlin head does so much for the midrange. ;x( As Adorian pointed out the 802 design is not just for appearances.

Jericho, I would love to own a Krell HT processor. But I agree, it's looks are not at all to my liking. At that price I'm very reluctant to "settle" for that appearance.

Jeff

[Stevebez]

I got the 803D's and was thinking of gettng the HTM2D. I would love 802D's but I just dont have the space in my apartment - HTM1D is simply out of the question...

I auditioned the 802D's originally and well was completely blown away. The 803D's mids are not up to the 802's I agree but still are not bad in my view but certainly the weakest point of the unit.

Anyhow so what do I do about the centre !!??.... ~£2500 is plenty to drop on a 2D centre ... anyone had better experience with it ? Does not sound like many have got it but instead have gone for the 802D or 803D's.

Rgds Steve.

[Andorian]

Hi,

Sure steve, they are much bettre than many others.
I do listen a lot to them, and ares still amazed what they can do.
yet, i realize that I sometimes ""unconsiously"" tend to avoid tracks where the prominent musical part comes (and fast) from mids.
thats is why I would like 802d,

Steve how big is jour room, approx.
Greetings, Andor .

[Stevebez]

Tiny mbe 3.5 x 5.0 metres ...

Rgds Steve

[Andorian]

Hi,

I see, Its the same ""problem"" as my room.
I guess 6x4 m and not at all empty.
greetings, Andor.

[xk8boy]

Misterdoggy, have your 802D arrived yet? I am surprised you have the patient. I only ever listen to music cd using good stereo. I have tried the prologic gaff, though it was fun, i found that it throw the image(sound stage) out the window.

As to the center, the HTM2D is sufficient for my needs, though, I would love to have the HTM1D.

Also, just wanted to add that Geoff and others got it spot on. Once you heard the 802s there's not turning back to 803s. :evil:

[Hoffa]

While I was in Ottawa (capital of Canada for those who don't know) I went to a very high-end audio shop. The salesman turned out to be pretty stuck up, but he did push on the fact that he does not sell center channels. He said that in installations, he will not put a center channel, but will put use the exact same speaker for the entire 5.1 (well not the sub ) setup.

So my question to you, is since you like the marlin head of the 802D, would you consider doing 3x802Ds across the front? What makes the HTM1D better suited for center duty? I am just curious why everyone (including myself) chooses a center channel speaker (other then the fact it is often magnetically shielded).

[xk8boy]

Hoffa, center speakers by nature are place in the center. In HT, for easy placement they are designed to be mounted horizontally so you can place them either below or above the screen.

[Hoffa]

Yes their form factor is convienent, but if you were aiming for the best sound, would an 802D not be any better then the HTM1D (given that it can produce more bass?)

[jim777]

Hoffa, for SACD or DVD-A, I would go for 3x802D. For cinema *only*, a center should do fine; but for both (lot's of music & some cinema), why not buy an acoustic-transparent projection screen that can go in front of a center 802D... I'm going to stop here because I will start dreaming of such a setup

[jlee]

While I was in Ottawa (capital of Canada for those who don't know) I went to a very high-end audio shop. The salesman turned out to be pretty stuck up, but he did push on the fact that he does not sell center channels. He said that in installations, he will not put a center channel, but will put use the exact same speaker for the entire 5.1 (well not the sub ) setup.

So my question to you, is since you like the marlin head of the 802D, would you consider doing 3x802Ds across the front? What makes the HTM1D better suited for center duty? I am just curious why everyone (including myself) chooses a center channel speaker (other then the fact it is often magnetically shielded).

You're going to have one really sore neck staring up at the screen that is so high because of your 802D center! Now, for multichannel music, that is fine, but not for HT, unless you have your seat elevated a few feet and all speakers angled upwards pointing at you!!! Not to mention the rear speakers elevated even higher than your sofa and pointed down at you!

HTM1D is nice because it can sit on the floor and angle upwards.

[jlee]

Hoffa, for SACD or DVD-A, I would go for 3x802D. For cinema *only*, a center should do fine; but for both (lot's of music & some cinema), why not buy an acoustic-transparent projection screen that can go in front of a center 802D... I'm going to stop here because I will start dreaming of such a setup

I've yet to find an acoustic transparent screen that is "truly" transparent... it is going to change the response of the speaker by 1-3 dB throughout the range... even if it altered the response by +/- 1dB, that is too much... plus, there are tiny holes in the screen... not suppose to be visible from far away, but still... to me, it's not "hifi." IMO, you would get better performance with HTM1D and normal screen than 802D behind one of these perforated screens.

[jim777]

I've yet to find an acoustic transparent screen that is "truly" transparent... it is going to change the response of the speaker by 1-3 dB throughout the range...

Can a screen be acoustic transparent AND be "removed" (lifted out of the way) for music-only listening? If not, and if an acoustic screen is not as good as a speaker grill or something, well it's going to be the htm center

[jlee]

Can a screen be acoustic transparent AND be "removed" (lifted out of the way) for music-only listening? If not, and if an acoustic screen is not as good as a speaker grill or something, well it's going to be the htm center

I think they make the acoustic transparent ones that roll up as well. Speaker grills also affect the sound, although probably somewhat less since the B&W engineers can design the rest of the speaker taking this into consideration... something the screen manufacturers probably don't do . Nevertheless, B&W still recommends removing them for best listening. Commercial theaters are forced to use those screens, but I'm sure it's a compromise as well. The high freq. always sound rolled off in a theater, which is why many movie soundtracks have to pump up the highs just to get them on par with the other freq.

When I was researching screens, I think I studied some charts on how the screens affected freq. response and I think even the "best one" I saw affected some freq. by as much as 5dB! That is a lot! That pretty much elimited perforated screens for me.

[csuzor]

I've yet to find an acoustic transparent screen that is "truly" transparent... it is going to change the response of the speaker by 1-3 dB throughout the range... even if it altered the response by +/- 1dB, that is too much... plus, there are tiny holes in the screen... not suppose to be visible from far away, but still... to me, it's not "hifi." IMO, you would get better performance with HTM1D and normal screen than 802D behind one of these perforated screens.

Yes, it seems they do alter the frequency response, but not by much.
I have a 703 in the center, and will make my first trials with a projection screen in front soon, which I will use for movies only. I'll see if those holes are an issue. For sacd mch music though, nothing beats an indentical front channel. But the HTM1D is a monster! its performance must be damn close to 802D.

http://www.screenresearch.com/cpfabrics.html

Screen Research ClearPix2™ Fabric:
Frequency Response
Red trace: Reference loudspeaker at 1m on axis.
Black trace: Same loudspeaker with ClearPix2™ fabric screen interposed 4 inches in front of the loudspeaker.

[jlee]

Thanks for doing the digging.

I looked at the chart and it confirms what I suspected, that the high freq. are affected more. It seems like in some places, 2-3 dB! I think that is actually quite significant.

And I agree nothing beats 5 identical speakers and amps for multichannel music.

Yes, it seems they do alter the frequency response, but not by much.
I have a 703 in the center, and will make my first trials with a projection screen in front soon, which I will use for movies only. I'll see if those holes are an issue. For sacd mch music though, nothing beats an indentical front channel. But the HTM1D is a monster! its performance must be damn close to 802D.

[caleb]

My new 802D's have arrived at the store.

I made a drastic error and listened to them side by side with the new 800D's.

Same equipment and music.

I immediately felt my wallet jump out of my pocket and run to the 800's saying "please buy these".

The result is that the 802's stayed at the store and I ordered the 800's.

Another three mone wait now but at least time to save for the difference in price.

[csuzor]

My new 802D's have arrived at the store.

I made a drastic error and listened to them side by side with the new 800D's.

Same equipment and music.

I immediately felt my wallet jump out of my pocket and run to the 800's saying "please buy these".

The result is that the 802's stayed at the store and I ordered the 800's.

Another three mone wait now but at least time to save for the difference in price.

Great! after reading this post, is there anyone wanting to sell me their 802D to upgrade to 800D?
btw, I'll need 3 of them for the front channels.

[johan]

Caleb,

Could you please describe the biggest differences between 800/802. Also what equipment was used and what will you use along with your new masterpieces?