Well... Finally got to try the 683 and 804S back-to-back, and....

**kmcheng** · 05 August 2009, 21:33 Wednesday

Congrats on your 804!

Your experience leads me to conclude that your earlier experience with the 803D has more to do with the room than the speakers themselves.

However, I would highly encourage you NOT to listen to the 803D.

**BVoss** · 06 August 2009, 00:14 Thursday

nice review. thanks for posting that.

I have a pair of 805s in Rosenut and they look incredible.

**ShadowZA** · 06 August 2009, 01:35 Thursday

Congratulations! Imho you picked a winner. The 804S's will do wonderful things if you feed them good recordings. Good luck ... enjoy ... and keep us posted. :T

**BWLover** · 06 August 2009, 02:02 Thursday

Rosenut! hands down. Find an 800 series speaker in that finish at your dealer so you can see both rosenut and cherry before you buy

**audioqueso** · 06 August 2009, 03:08 Thursday

Yeah, I agree that the biggest difference is going from 2D to 3D. I will say that based on how you talked about your setup, you may have had the best imaging set up with your speakers than any other 600 owner here. So if you can say that that you heard that 3D imaging I was talking about, then you know what I mean about 2D vs 3D. It's awesome. But you heard this at the dealer, right? I think you could probably make them sound even better at your house. I say that because of how well you seemed to have made the 683's sound in your home.

Now for color, black is gorgeous, but I think a wood color will give you a better appreciation of the wood finish. For me, the 802s and up look best in black because if goes with the gloss black head.
Take some time, take a look at the B&W picture thread, and see which 800 series speakers are in a room similar to your room. Then you can get a good feel of what it would look like; black or cherry or rosenut.

**altanpsx** · 06 August 2009, 03:29 Thursday

There are only two resemblence between 683 vs 804. First they are B&W, and second their midrange clarity. 683 sounds like a rubbish, after listening 804. I did not mean that 683's are bad speakers. In their price level actually they are very good. But when you compare with 804s, they are rubbish. IMO 804s are the most optimum speakers in 8xx line. They do not demand very expensive electronic, or very very high watts like 803d, 802d, and also they have largely the same refinment with 803d, 802d. 804s bass response is very accurate and very very good. If your room size, room treatments, and your amp power are good enough, you will hear the best punch. I used them with classe cap-2100, audio research vs115, EAR 890, ASR Exclusive I. All of the amps have different and very good results. I do not know which electronics you are using but do not feed them with Rotel or something similiar. They deserve better ones.

**Hammie** · 06 August 2009, 10:42 Thursday

Personally, I feel when you are in the 800 series, you need to go wood tone. Rosenut is my favorite. As a matter of fact, I happen to have the 804s's in Rosenut and they are more beautiful than I imaged looking in my room.

Most of my music is in ALAC lossless format, but even the few mp3's I own have a new life with these speakers.

**BWLover** · 06 August 2009, 21:17 Thursday

Originally posted by altanpsx

There are only two resemblence between 683 vs 804. First they are B&W, and second their midrange clarity. 683 sounds like a rubbish, after listening 804. I did not mean that 683's are bad speakers. In their price level actually they are very good. But when you compare with 804s, they are rubbish. IMO 804s are the most optimum speakers in 8xx line. They do not demand very expensive electronic, or very very high watts like 803d, 802d, and also they have largely the same refinment with 803d, 802d. 804s bass response is very accurate and very very good. If your room size, room treatments, and your amp power are good enough, you will hear the best punch. I used them with classe cap-2100, audio research vs115, EAR 890, ASR Exclusive I. All of the amps have different and very good results. I do not know which electronics you are using but do not feed them with Rotel or something similiar. They deserve better ones.

I agree with the 683's being very good for there price. But I'd like to add that the 804S's are INSANE!!! for there price as well. I think $5000 (canadian) is a DAMN good retail price for what you get out of those bad boys.

**emig5m** · 06 August 2009, 21:33 Thursday

I sat there last night thinking and thinking looking at pictures and I decided on Rosenut. Speakers are ordered and should have them sometime next week. They say two days to ship but I doubt they'd get them in by friday. My birthday is actually a couple weeks away, I might just wrap them up as a present to myself, lol.

Originally posted by audioqueso

But you heard this at the dealer, right? I think you could probably make them sound even better at your house. I say that because of how well you seemed to have made the 683's sound in your home.

I have a pretty good sweet spot dialed in with the 683's, I hope it's as easy as removing the 683 and setting down the 804S in their spot, heh.

**emig5m** · 08 August 2009, 16:24 Saturday

Had the 804S's home since around 11am and it's closing in on 5:30pm....I've been glued to them all day....hearing all my music for the first time again... :E :T :B

**97disco** · 08 August 2009, 17:40 Saturday

;x(

Very nice! (little jealous).

Hope to hear what you think now that you've got them in your place!

**BWLover** · 08 August 2009, 18:15 Saturday

god those speakers are sexy!

**htsteve** · 08 August 2009, 20:28 Saturday

Sweet. It's so much fun 'rediscovering' music and movies.

**emig5m** · 08 August 2009, 23:48 Saturday

Really, you could sum up the 804S vs the 683 in one sentence.....

Originally posted by 97disco

;x(

Very nice! (little jealous).

Hope to hear what you think now that you've got them in your place!

*Ahem* I don't know where to begin but here it goes now that I have them at home with tons of music I'm very familiar with....

The 683 had something going on with the bass that made me wind up turning the bass tone control down -2db to give the speaker overall a cleaner and clearer sound - otherwise no other EQ'ing was used although I did experiment with some slight EQ adjustments at one point but always wound up back to flat with the bass tone control set at -2dB (tried the bass port plugs but they seemed to take away dynamics so turning down the tone control got the better result). With the 804S I'm able to put the bass tone control back to flat/neutral position and the bass doesn't sound slightly in the way of the mids/highs like the 683 does. I'm not talking about bass "punch" but bass "tone". I don't want to make people think that the 683 has more "punch" - the 804S has basically the same "punch" but the difference is it does the "sound" that you hear exactly right and doesn't get in the way of anything. The bass sound doesn't make me want to experiment with EQ, bass Plugs, sub crossover, etc. like the 683 did. It's perfect... The bass sounds so good it made me want to drop my sub crossover to to 40Hz instead of 80Hz and keep the sub away from the music bass as much as possible since the music bass of the 804S sounds way better than the Sunfire sub (the Sunfire is superb for true sub/LFE bass though).

The 804S pulls a good disappearing act with its superb 3D imaging and realistic and neutral sound from bottom to top. It sounds so natural and realistic. Just like the bass, the treble doesn't sound too bright nor does it sound too dull...just perfectly balanced making sounds sound just like they should. Saying this might make someone wonder if the treble isn't overly boosted tonally that it wont sound as detailed. Nope, not the case at all. I'm hearing tons more subtle detail with the 804S that sounds like it's coming out of thin air, and in a more natural and realistic sound that's all for the better. When vocals sound like the singer is right there in the room with you when clarity, detail, natural sound, and 3D imaging all come together there's really a WOW factor there. And the better the recording is, the bigger the WOW factor. This also doesn't make the lesser recordings sound worse on the 804S - they actually still sound better than the 683. This was another thing I was worried about, but even the lesser recordings still get a performance boost from the 804S. It's just the better recordings pull you much further into realism. Really, you could sum up the 804S vs the 683 in one sentence - The 804S takes what the 683 does so well and magically erases all flaws and does everything better and correctly. The challenge isn't so much finding what the 804S does better than the 683, that's easily noticeable, but the true challenge is finding what the 804S does wrong, which so far is nothing that I can tell...

A little over a year ago I was at the point where I didn't even listen to music on a loudspeaker system anymore. I was so hooked on the clarity and especially the ultra fine detail that you could so easily hear through a decent set of headphones that I stopped listening to music on loudspeakers all together and loudspeakers became no longer enjoyable once I heard how much fine detail it was possible to hear from a CD (and balanced sound/no room interaction). A year ago I wouldn't have believed it was possible for a loudspeaker to throw those ultra fine details across the room and sound so balanced with superb clarity. Well my dream has come true. Not only does the 804S get me to where I never thought was possible from a loudspeaker vs a decent set of headphones for clarity and ultra fine detail, but easily surpasses anything I've ever heard before! The B&W 600 series took me 80% there... the 800 takes me all the way! Actually that's not the best way to put it, the 600 series did in fact take me most of the way of what I was looking for with detail and clarity, it's more like the 800 series took me to another level I haven't experienced yet.

The 804S...

is extremely clean and clear sounding.
reveals tons of fine detail.
images 3D like mad
sounds perfectly balanced (i.e. nothing of the sound gets in the way of each other like the bass "tone" does a little bit on the 683)
sounds extremely natural and realistic (i.e. vocals can sound just like the singer is in the room with you and not coming from a loudspeaker system)

Are they worth the cost? Hell ya! :-y I'd assume some intense R&D went into making a speaker that can perform like this and when you also factor in the build quality, yea, they're totally worth it!

**Hammie** · 09 August 2009, 02:05 Sunday

Congrats on the new speakers!

Although I am not comparing them to the B&W 600 series speakers, I have come to many of the same conclusion as you have.

**ShadowZA** · 09 August 2009, 02:30 Sunday

Congratulations emig5m! I am familiar with your superb description. What you will find is that your speakers/system etc will disappear. What will remain is the music. Intoxicating, detailed and just plain beautiful! There is but only one thing that you need to do ... and that is enjoy!

:T

**Hammie** · 09 August 2009, 10:21 Sunday

I was just listening to some 2 channel music and my wife walked by and sat next to me. I asked her what speaker the song was coming out of. She pointed towards the center channel and then to the left and then right. Finally, she said that she gave up.

**emig5m** · 09 August 2009, 17:30 Sunday

I'm wondering if I'll be able to get by with the HTM61 for a center or the HTM3S will be necessary. I don't care as much about performance with movies as I do with 2-channel music. With music I'm a critical listener. For movies I want to just kick back and enjoy the movie but understand the center plays a critical role for movies, especially with all these new Hi Def soundtracks. Hmmm... My budget for this year was to get the Emotiva XMC-1 pre/pro.... I kinda already blew WAY over my upgrade budget for this year with the Sunfire sub and 804S, ouchy, lol. But if I'm going to eventually wind up with something anyway, what's it matter if I buy it now or next year? Oh yea, having the funds, lol. :lol:

**audioqueso** · 09 August 2009, 18:08 Sunday

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you said comparing the 600 series to the 800 series.

Regarding the center channel, I would suggest using a phantom center
instead.

HTGuide Forum

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=34178

**Opus007** · 10 August 2009, 00:41 Monday

Congratulations emig5m on you new purchase.I always marveled at how you enjoyed your 683's.I have read some unfavorable things at times on people putting the 683's down.In my opinion the are are a magnificent speaker for a entry level speaker and can not be beat in their price range range. It took me a long time to dial them in.It took a lot of trial and error.I bought and sold components and cables until it all came together.
I can only imagine what joy you are experiencing when you sit down and listen to those bad boys.And the look is also awesome.You now have me wondering what a pair of those would sound like in my domain.I really enjoyed your comparison to the 683's.At times I swear I get that 3d imaging from my 683's.But anyway Congratulations once again.

**Charlieu** · 10 August 2009, 06:07 Monday

Originally posted by emig5m

I'm wondering if I'll be able to get by with the HTM61 for a center or the HTM3S will be necessary. I don't care as much about performance with movies as I do with 2-channel music. With music I'm a critical listener. For movies I want to just kick back and enjoy the movie but understand the center plays a critical role for movies, especially with all these new Hi Def soundtracks. Hmmm... My budget for this year was to get the Emotiva XMC-1 pre/pro.... I kinda already blew WAY over my upgrade budget for this year with the Sunfire sub and 804S, ouchy, lol. But if I'm going to eventually wind up with something anyway, what's it matter if I buy it now or next year? Oh yea, having the funds, lol. :lol:

You will want the HTM3S. The fact that you don't have it will start eating at you soon. I had a decent center when I bought the 804s and could have kept it without spending a dime more. Not seeing that tweeter sitting on top of the center channel will make you feel that something in your life is just not complete. I went 6 months letting my "mad" money build up before getting it. Not only is your life back in balance, but it's a great sounding speaker. Especially if you are into multi-channel music.

**Briz vegas** · 14 August 2009, 04:37 Friday

Not sure about the HTM61 but I have run HTM7 with my 804s for almost 3 years now, and that was about 10 upgrades ago (pre,cd player, interconnects,amp, power cord 1, power cord 2, speaker cable, interconnects upgraded, power cord 3, speaker cable upgraded, higher spec power cord and power strip in series with other power cords, bit of DIY room treatment, gear isolation...........14 upgrades ago).

Sorry still no HTM3 - too heavy to easily remove from between the speakers when in 2 channel mode and the HTM7/receiver I use sounds great. The HTM7 benefits from the power cords upstream and does not require a high currrent amp to drive it. Even with DTS 96/24 it works a treat, although 2 channel sounds even better, just as it should.

**emig5m** · 14 August 2009, 22:42 Friday

Watched my first BluRay with the 804S's last night and to my surprise the HTM61 does in fact blend pretty well with the 804S's. Tonally, there's almost no difference in dialog. Just like my initial experience with the 683 and 804S is that tonally, they're pretty close to the same sound character. I'm sure the HTM3S would be more 3D, image a little better, have some more subtle detail, and be stronger down in the lower frequencies. But since I'm only a critical listener for 2-channel, I think the rest of the 600 series blends very well tonally with the 804S and is plenty satisfying for movie playback for me.

**audioqueso** · 14 August 2009, 23:42 Friday

Wow... then maybe the 600 Series 4 really is that much better than the 600 Series 3. My 600 S3 really didn't match my 805 tonally at all for movies. I've tried. But B&W also did tell me that the S4's tweeter is a much better match to the 800 series. Glad to hear that worked out for you.

**emig5m** · 15 August 2009, 11:57 Saturday

Originally posted by audioqueso

Wow... then maybe the 600 Series 4 really is that much better than the 600 Series 3. My 600 S3 really didn't match my 805 tonally at all for movies. I've tried. But B&W also did tell me that the S4's tweeter is a much better match to the 800 series. Glad to hear that worked out for you.

Looking at the tweeters, the aluminum dome and surround appear to be identical between the 600 and 800 series. I know from the outside the FST mids also appear the same (except for the phase plug), but the 800 mids (from pictures I've seen) look differently built on the inside (magnet structure and basket for example). I think the "trickle down" effect worked out real good in favor of the new 600 series. You guys with your 683's hang on to them and be happy that you got 8/10th the performance for 1/3rd the price. :T Now looks and build quality, well that's a different thing...heh. The new 600 series is damn good sound! (when setup properly).

The 800's truly pull a gap with music with top notch recording quality. Then the 800's sound much less colored and much more 3D. The better recorded the music, the bigger the gap, but the 600's are still very good and overall not too far off.... I now have the 804S with absolutely no buyers remorse, very happy with them for 2-channel music, especially the better the recording the more appreciation for what they can do. But you could take them away and give me back the 683's and I'd still be as happy as I ever was with them and not feel that I downgraded all that much! :T

**emig5m** · 15 August 2009, 15:53 Saturday

The right angle/toe-in is important

Looks like I had the 804S's angled in a little too much. I had them pointed directly at your ears at the seated position and was messing around with angling and it looks like the optimum angle is pointed just behind your head and not directly at your ears. This helped make them much more 3D sounding.

Back to the tonal matching of the 600 vs 800. Playing a DTS test file with a male voice that has a lot of chestiness like say a radio DJ where the vocal sound is over emphasized in bottom end the 685's actually sound like they match the 804S moreso than the HTM61 with the FST where the chestiness is alleviated only in the center channel and the voice sounds a littler higher up in the octave then the other channels. I have the full bass plug in, but I also have the full plugs in the 685's. Could be the placement of the HTM61 in a cabinet. Hmmm.... I'll mess around with that more later... For now it's time for some 2-channel goodness. :T Some slight adjustments here and there can all come together to make a pretty significant difference overall.

**audioqueso** · 15 August 2009, 20:26 Saturday

Originally posted by emig5m

Looking at the tweeters, the aluminum dome and surround appear to be identical between the 600 and 800 series.

I guess the only real way to find out it so pull it out and read the back. The tweeter on my 600 S3 looks identical to my 805, but I know it's not. I think if I read this a few months ago, I would have picked up the DS3 for surrounds. I had tried the DS6 S3, but it didn't match. But I have a pair of FPM-2s now that do a great job, so no problem anymore. But that's really good to hear that the 600 series 4 does match that closely to the 800 series.

Originally posted by emig5m

Looks like I had the 804S's angled in a little too much. I had them pointed directly at your ears at the seated position and was messing around with angling and it looks like the optimum angle is pointed just behind your head and not directly at your ears. This helped make them much more 3D sounding.

Yup, I found that to be true too. I even matched it with a laser. ha ha ha (seriously, I did just to have it perfect)

Throughout my time here and reading people's tips on set up, the biggest things I found that affect that 3D soundstage is toe-in, amount of room the speaker has around it to breathe, and having no obstructions in between the speakers.

emig5m, would you mind posting a picture of your room showing from your seating position to the speaker? I'd like to see what you've done with your room, room treatment, postition, arrangement, etc to get such a pleasing setup. I mean... I always hear people with 800 series talk about stagesound, but you're the first person I recall talking so greatly about the 600 series... so you must have done something very right. If you don't mind...

**BWLover** · 15 August 2009, 22:01 Saturday

i completely and totally agree that the 683's are a damn good speaker. Ive been playing with treatments and positions for about a year and they just keep amazing me. right now i have them 11 feet apart and the imaging is amazing. I took out all my room treatment to see how much of a difference it made and it was a HUGE difference. the 683's are an astounding speaker. you can tweak and tweak and tweak and they just keep getting better. I also agree with toe in. Makes a huge difference. Just behind your head

. and i to used a laser hahaha

Placement makes SUCH a huge difference. The biggest i noticed it put them right up against an interior wall and the bass goes WAY up! Spread them apart and the stage gets better. get them away from walls and the stage goes beyond the speakers. (if its in the recording) And most of all, treat your room. Give them better gear too

Ive never tried having nothing in between though. My TV is there. Whats the advantages to nothing in the middle?

**audioqueso** · 15 August 2009, 22:53 Saturday

I wrote this a long time ago in another thread:

Originally posted by audioqueso

Think of it like this. You remember those 3D picture books where if you stare at it just right, you see a cool 3D image and it feels as if you're RIGHT THERE? It's almost the same thing. Our eyes see reflected light, our ears hear soundwaves. The speakers placed in a perfect setup (nothing in between, just enough space all around it, etc) will make perfect symmetrical waves, right? You're in the right chair, right listening position, so it's like you're focused just right on the picture image. When you see it, you get drawn in and it feels like you're right there in the picture, right? It's the same feel with the 805s. Once you have just the right setup you can sit down and it feels like you're right there in the music. You put something in the middle of the picture page, and you no longer can see the image in 3D the same way. You can see part of it, but not the whole thing and not get the same feel where it feels like you're there. You put something bulky in between the speakers, and the soundwaves now refract and you no longer have perfect symmetrical soundwave, which breaks the intregity of the 3D image. Make sense? That's why I bring my speakers out now as much as I can because the less I have in the way of the soundwaves, the better/bigger the image. Hope this makes sense to you.

Try it just for testing. Bring your speakers out with nothing in between them, and plenty of "breathing" room.

**emig5m** · 15 August 2009, 23:21 Saturday

Originally posted by audioqueso

I wrote this a long time ago in another thread:

Try it just for testing. Bring your speakers out with nothing in between them, and plenty of "breathing" room.

I also find that the listening position is at least as important as the speaker positioning. Bring your speakers out from the walls like you say but have the listening position right up against the back wall and it's all for nothing, heh. I'll try to get you some pics... I need to get a good caption pic of my 804S to change my avatar anyway, heh.

**audioqueso** · 16 August 2009, 00:47 Sunday

Originally posted by emig5m

I also find that the listening position is at least as important as the speaker positioning. Bring your speakers out from the walls like you say but have the listening position right up against the back wall and it's all for nothing, heh. I'll try to get you some pics... I need to get a good caption pic of my 804S to change my avatar anyway, heh.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Speaker 1ft from the wall plus the chair in the middle of the room sounds better than the chair 1ft from the wall plus the speaker in the middle of the room. Unfortunately, in my current home I have to keep my couch close to the wall. ...I know what I'm missing.

**Hammie** · 16 August 2009, 13:09 Sunday

Originally posted by audioqueso

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Speaker 1ft from the wall plus the chair in the middle of the room sounds better than the chair 1ft from the wall plus the speaker in the middle of the room. Unfortunately, in my current home I have to keep my couch close to the wall. ...I know what I'm missing.

My room is also on the small side (~ 11x14), but I am able to have my 804s about 16 inches from the wall. My listening position is about 8 feet from the 804s and also up against the back wall. I have am almost perfect triangle between tweeters and my sweet spot.

I played around with toe-in and found that having both speakers 6 inches off dead center give the widest soundstage. I had my wife sit in the sweet spot and close her eyes while I played some music. Asked her where it was coming front and she couldn't definitively point out where. She was amazed because this was the first time she realized there was a difference between my old Polks and these.

**BWLover** · 16 August 2009, 15:35 Sunday

always a plus when you get the wife in on this world lol

**olilugo** · 17 August 2009, 21:22 Monday

Originally posted by emig5m

I sat there last night thinking and thinking looking at pictures and I decided on Rosenut. Speakers are ordered and should have them sometime next week. They say two days to ship but I doubt they'd get them in by friday. My birthday is actually a couple weeks away, I might just wrap them up as a present to myself, lol.

I have a pretty good sweet spot dialed in with the 683's, I hope it's as easy as removing the 683 and setting down the 804S in their spot, heh.

I notice you also choose the rosewood. They look great!!!

**emig5m** · 29 August 2009, 19:35 Saturday

Originally posted by Charlieu

You will want the HTM3S. The fact that you don't have it will start eating at you soon. I had a decent center when I bought the 804s and could have kept it without spending a dime more. Not seeing that tweeter sitting on top of the center channel will make you feel that something in your life is just not complete. I went 6 months letting my "mad" money build up before getting it. Not only is your life back in balance, but it's a great sounding speaker. Especially if you are into multi-channel music.

Well I didn't even make is six months, lol. I went today to my local B&W dealer and put half the money down on a HTM3S, should be in by mid-week next week. I'm not much into multichannel music, but I'm really into BluRay movies. Music I'm still a 2-channel nut, heh. I mean if I could replace every single CD I have with a multichannel version then that would be a different story - but the selection just isn't there for me. Everything from here on out should come out on BluRay that has a full copy of 2-channel and multichannel and whatever music videos (in HD of course) the band has and some extras (videos in the recording studio for example).

**Hammie** · 30 August 2009, 22:18 Sunday

Originally posted by emig5m

Well I didn't even make is six months, lol. I went today to my local B&W dealer and put half the money down on a HTM3S, should be in by mid-week next week. I'm not much into multichannel music, but I'm really into BluRay movies. Music I'm still a 2-channel nut, heh. I mean if I could replace every single CD I have with a multichannel version then that would be a different story - but the selection just isn't there for me. Everything from here on out should come out on BluRay that has a full copy of 2-channel and multichannel and whatever music videos (in HD of course) the band has and some extras (videos in the recording studio for example).

We will have almost the same exact setup. I just ordered my Emotiva XPA-5 amp tonight. 8)

I am hoping it will be in and I'll have it installed before the in-laws come this weekend. I need to raise my plasma about 2 -3 inches because the HTM3S is blocking the IR sensor. :M

Well... Finally got to try the 683 and 804S back-to-back, and....

Well... Finally got to try the 683 and 804S back-to-back, and....

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