Pre-pro Advice for 802D HT System

**wettou** · 11 February 2009, 18:00 Wednesday

[QUOTE=COhifi]Hello All,

I am in the market for a new pre-pro and wanted your guy’s opinions on my options.:
I am looking to spend between $2000 and $5000 for a new pre-pro. My options can be broken down in to two categories: those with the new HD audio formats and those without.

Those with the new audio codecs: Based on your budget

1. Marantz AV8003

2. Integra DTC 9.9

3. Rotel 1570

More expensive:

- Anthem D2v has it all

- Classé SSP-800 no video processing just outstanding audio and cool interface

Both of these won't be in the used market for at least a year but you never know

**htsteve** · 11 February 2009, 21:12 Wednesday

COhifi,

I'll chime in on the Mac MX-136. I have the MX-120. It has less inputs and the rear channels are not balanced, but the processing, video and 2 channel is the same. The 136 will have HDMI capabilty. It will also scale non-HD sources upto 1080p and send it out. HD signals are passed through as is. The scaling is very good. Near HD. Overall, I'm quite happy with my video.

2 channel performance is incredible. HT performance is outstanding. Super soundstage, detail and dymancs, as well as excellent bass. It's truly a high performance pre-amp.

The 136 does not do the new HD audio formats. I simply bought a BR player that did the HD decoding on board and I sent the signals over via analog RCA's. It's worked out very, very well. You're idea of using an Oppo BR player sounds good.

Your long term system sound very much like what I have today.

If you can get a used 136, I would definitely recommend it.

Hope this helps.

**SoCalCM** · 11 February 2009, 23:10 Wednesday

I would look for a used Anthem D2 -- you can upgrade it to the "v" spec later, if you want. The PS3 decodes all the blu-ray codecs and will send them to the D2's HDMI 1.1 inputs. So you really don't gain much with HDMI 1.3 or having the D2v do the decoding rather than the PS3. It will have outstanding audio detail and soundstage, outstanding SD video scaling and matches well with the 802Ds. I have 3 802Ds in front with 804S in the back.

The only advantage of HDMI 1.3 over the 1.1 I can think of is the ability to send SACD by HDMI, "Deep color" does not exist yet and won't for a long time.

**COhifi** · 12 February 2009, 11:45 Thursday

Thanks for the advice. I really appreciate the information about the MX136, The Marantz and the D2. If anyone else has any suggestions or opinions please keep them coming. I always appreciate the information.

**kmcheng** · 12 February 2009, 14:20 Thursday

Originally posted by COhifi

Rotel – 1069 or similar used – Great deals, would be well below my price range. Good quality sound.

These are main pre-pros I have been considering. Also, remember that if I choose one without the codecs I will have to buy interconnects from the Oppo Blu Ray player to the pre-pro – estimated cost of $300 - $400.

I assume that the Oppo would be able to send uncompressed PCM through HDMI. If that is the case then you do not need the processor to decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA. The 1069, which accepts uncompressed PCM through HDMI, will serve you just fine and save you plenty of money, albeit with the video issues described in another thread.

**MikeFL52** · 12 February 2009, 15:34 Thursday

Originally posted by SoCalCM

I would look for a used Anthem D2 -- you can upgrade it to the "v" spec later, if you want. The PS3 decodes all the blu-ray codecs and will send them to the D2's HDMI 1.1 inputs. So you really don't gain much with HDMI 1.3 or having the D2v do the decoding rather than the PS3. It will have outstanding audio detail and soundstage, outstanding SD video scaling and matches well with the 802Ds. I have 3 802Ds in front with 804S in the back.

The only advantage of HDMI 1.3 over the 1.1 I can think of is the ability to send SACD by HDMI, "Deep color" does not exist yet and won't for a long time.

+1

If you cannot afford the D2v immediately then get a D2 (with ARC) second hand (I would imagine that there will be quite a few coming on the market) and upgrade later. In all honsetly the codec thing less of a problem as there will be quite a few players that will decode internally and pass the decoded LPCM over HDMI and the D2 can deal with this upto 5.1 channels.

I have a D1(with ARC)/P5 combo and it the D1 has the same audio as the D2 and it certainly is not bright.

**SoCalCM** · 12 February 2009, 16:53 Thursday

The audio from the D2 to the 802Ds is actually pretty dazzling. I learned this anew when I sent my D1 to Anthem to upgrade to D2 spec. I put my old AVM20 in its place for several weeks while waiting. The AVM20 is very good, probably as good or better than the Rotel, but the difference was really noticeable. As many have said, the 802Ds will reveal differences in electronics.

**WelshOne** · 12 February 2009, 18:56 Thursday

Hi COhifi,

I have just ordered the 1570 and 1575. Was very pleased with the audio and video performance during the demo, but did not compare it to other manufacturers. Could you tell me please where you read about the poor video side of things, as I have seen very little in the way of reviews?

I agree with the remote though, it is poor.

Thanks

David

**wettou** · 13 February 2009, 15:16 Friday

Originally posted by SoCalCM

The audio from the D2 to the 802Ds is actually pretty dazzling. I learned this anew when I sent my D1 to Anthem to upgrade to D2 spec. I put my old AVM20 in its place for several weeks while waiting. The AVM20 is very good, probably as good or better than the Rotel, but the difference was really noticeable. As many have said, the 802Ds will reveal differences in electronics.

How come you didn't get the Classe SSP-800 instead 8O

**COhifi** · 14 February 2009, 17:13 Saturday

WelshOne,

I just being reading reviews from users and a few sites. The following two threads form the Rotel area on this site mentions a few video problems that I was talking about.

Thread one
Thread two

I won't worry about it. The 1570 is a great pre-pro. I bet they get a lot of these problems ironed out with the firmware updates.

Enjoy your new components, I bet they are going to produce steller sound.

**misterdoggy** · 15 February 2009, 04:57 Sunday

Well I can chime in here as I have A LOT OF EXPERIENCE with the processors being mentioned.

I have the 800D's and 802D's and have used them with

Anthem D2, McIntosh MX119 & MX135, Meridian 861V4, Rotel 1098, Krell HTS, and now the Denon AVP A1HDCI

Also to repond to your question about the MX136 there is no video processing
it only acts a a hub there is not video upscaler on board

These were my findings with the best ones and B&W Speakers:

1. Anthem D2
pro: First class great sounding with lots of options inboard upscaling and upsampling unit, Great Stereo Preamp, holds its own.
con: Lots of bugs, doesn't always recognize hdmi audio signals and you find yourself hooking up optical and coax to make the signal work. Quirky, and PC to Processor downloads don't always work. My opinion is they have software out that hasn't been fully refined, so they are constantly trying to post fixes. You have to stay on their forum to fix all the ongoing problems. , Room correction that is quirky and doesn't always work.
result: Sent it back

2. McIntosh MX series
pro: Beautiful looking, prestigious brand, good build quality
con: Worst Processor I have owned, my wife kept asking me when watching satellite TV "What did he say ? If you own this processor you will be obliged to own a separate preamp as it is even worse as a Preamp. No room correction
result: Sent it packing

3. Meridian 861V4
pro: One incredible sounding Processor, maybe the best sounding processor I have ever owned and also great as a Stand Alone Preamp (a/b'd it against a C2200 tube preamp by mcintosh and it was every bit the equal. Easy software updates, great with help, Clarity Class, room correction
con: No video upscaling you will need a separate upscaler and that starts to enter into lipsync problems with different sources. NO gain for different digital sources. EXPENSIVE $20k
result: Wanted it all in one unit like the Anthem so sold it off to buy the Denon AVP

4. Denon AVP A1HCDI
pro: Does everything excellently Video upscaler Realta chip, upsampling with 12 chip dacs TI PCM-1796, everything works hdmi, Great Preamp stand alone. Digital gain control on all sources, Audyssey room correction measures distances exactly, puts levels exactly, corrects room conditions exactly, this is the only room correction I have owned that really does everything for you. Consider that many of the McIntosh Components start out as Denon pieces and then get modified. Audyssey is the Best Room correction I have witnessed
con: I can't think of any,
result: It is in my system today and I am Happy ;x( ;x(
note:I know many of your say "Ohh Denon" that it is a low priced item, not worthy to be mentioned with the likes of Krell, Classe, Meridian, McIntosh, Anthem etc, but this is the STATEMENT piece. You take a company the size of Denon and put all the possible technology into one unit and this is what you've got. Those other companies are tiny in comparison and use the technologies that the larger companies invent like Denon. This is no ordinary Processor and the price reflects it at retail $7500 in the USA.

Here's the Guts and for a Processor Only it weighs as much as big Amps !

Attached Files

**WelshOne** · 16 February 2009, 05:08 Monday

Thanks Co :T

I am getting the kit end of this week, set up and installed. Cannot wait :B

I will post my thoughts on the new kit. Hopefully all goes well :roll:

**style** · 16 February 2009, 10:32 Monday

WelshOne,

if you like the movie --> you wil make a HT system i will go with the Marantz .
(well marantz is the same machine like Denon (D&M Holding) but not so expensive, with XLR I/O, all encoding,... :T

Anthem work very fine but is not a Meridian a very pionier and give great resultat...
For the Mcintosh in HT (MX120-136) really overpriced and for my not at the level with Classe...

the Rotel 1570 see good over paper but I don't have never listen...a combo 1570&1575 will sound great.(prive/performance)

the Denon is sure a good product but I dont will buy a pre-pro from Denon priced in europa like a Classe!!!!!

A Marantz AV8003 with a power ampli from ????(rotel, classe!!!, Mcintosh)
give you a great sound.

The Anthem D2 with a ampli P5 is sure a dream combo. Anthem win a lots of awards for its products.....

style

**misterdoggy** · 16 February 2009, 11:17 Monday

I have noticed that Marantz

Very nice machine, not the level of the Denon, but offers a lot for cheap $$

**wettou** · 16 February 2009, 14:20 Monday

Originally posted by misterdoggy

I have noticed that Marantz, Very nice machine, not the level of the Denon, but offers a lot for cheap $$

Interesting how come you didn't get the Classé SSP-800? By the way I agree with you all the high end companies are puny compared to DH group but still Classé is backed by B&W and owned by Equity group with many $$$$

**misterdoggy** · 16 February 2009, 14:35 Monday

B&W and Classe aren't the size of D&M Holding, but they are both excellent companies.

The Denon offered too much to resist. Now everything is working under one component and the sound is spectacular. Really, the Audyssey Correction is outstanding both in HT and Stereo listening.

I was never drawn to the Classe "Look". It never appealed to me.

I like the looks of Levinson, Krell, McIntosh, but not Classe nor Pass Labs

**wettou** · 16 February 2009, 15:59 Monday

Originally posted by misterdoggy

B&W and Classe aren't the size of D&M Holding, but they are both excellent companies. The Denon offered too much to resist. Now everything is working under one component and the sound is spectacular. Really, the Audyssey Correction is outstanding both in HT and Stereo listening. I was never drawn to the Classe "Look". It never appealed to me. I like the looks of Levinson, Krell, McIntosh, but not Classe nor Pass Labs

Well to each his own, I love the Classé look, my favorite is the new Esoteric for looks.

It is true that the Denon does it all Classé claims Audyssey is crap and inconsistent?? I think Classé say this because they didn't want to pony-up the licensing fees they are now managed by investors!!

It is interesting that they are one of the only high end with a pre/pro with out any automated EQ correction!!!

I don't particularly care for the Denon look it is too much like the mass merchandise look for me, to bad they didn't upgrade the box to make it really stand out.

I just bought a piar of Headphone Denon AHD-7000 whoa :T

**misterdoggy** · 16 February 2009, 16:04 Monday

I agree with the Denon Look not being up to the Grand Brands, but the AVP I got was in Champagne Color and is very nice.

A processor in todays HT world has to have Room Correction.

And Audyssey does work. Just read the Audyssey forum on AVS and you will fathom just how much it works.

I was never so impressed. After using the Room Correction of Anthem D2 and Meridian 861, the Audyssey smokes them all in the dust.

It measured EXACTLY the distance of each speaker from my sitting position. Adjusted the Calibration of Levels EXACTLY. Checks the Polarity of the speaker and is able to select whether the speaker should be set to Large or Small. Thats impressive.

You can a/b it in and out to see and compare with and without and its night and day ...

**wettou** · 16 February 2009, 16:15 Monday

Originally posted by misterdoggy

I agree with the Denon Look not being up to the Grand Brands, but the AVP I got was in Champagne Color and is very nice.
A processor in todays HT world has to have Room Correction. And Audyssey does work. Just read the Audyssey forum on AVS and you will fathom just how much it works. I was never so impressed. After using the Room Correction of Anthem D2 and Meridian 861, the Audyssey smokes them all in the dust.

Yes I know there are true believers of Audyssey, I demod Neptune Audio not very impressive at all.

Originally posted by misterdoggy

It measured EXACTLY the distance of each speaker from my sitting position. Adjusted the Calibration of Levels EXACTLY. Checks the Polarity of the speaker and is able to select whether the speaker should be set to Large or Small. That is impressive. You can a/b it in and out to see and compare with and without and its night and day ...

I can do that on my own my question is does it make the sound better?

May be I will get the latest Integra DHC-9.9 and try it out they have it all as well same Audyssey and all for a lot less money than the Denon

**crytklmass** · 16 February 2009, 16:32 Monday

Misterdoggy states he owned the Anthem D2, McIntosh MX119 & MX135, Meridian 861V4, Rotel 1098, Krell HTS, and now the Denon AVP A1HDCI
NOT a MX136. I'm confused as to how you could clearly hear your movies with the MX119 & MX135, and claims the better processor (MX136) couldn't be heard clearly. If your buying mac amps, you should buy a mac pre-pro (mx136 if possible, If not, MX119, or 120). If your local dealer has one in stock, have him play a blu ray movie and make your own decision, after all its your money. I listened to MX136-2ch was awesome, watching a movie was the same, I understood every word. previous to the mac I bought the Denon POA-A1HDI, 1st one arrived broke, sent back ordered a replacement and It didn't work either. must be a quality control problem or there making them too fast. Never had any problems with my mac. Listen to everyone's opinion, but make sure you audition before you buy, most dealers will let you take an amp home to audition in your home, they just need a credit card to make sure you return it.

**crytklmass** · 16 February 2009, 16:37 Monday

just a thought, you could buy the mac amps and use the Denon AVP-A1HDCI as your pre-pro. My only concern is there are way to many options and with that, like a vehicle offers more things to break in the future. besides are you really going to use ALL the features. Read HTSTEVE remark, buy the mac pre-pro that offers a matching system and a blu-ray Denon3800 or similar to decode the HT options. dts, neo6, etc. or any blu-ray that offers the options you want. like the oppo.

**crytklmass** · 16 February 2009, 16:37 Monday

just a thought, you could buy the mac amps and use the Denon AVP-A1HDCI as your pre-pro. My only concern is there are way to many options and with that, like a vehicle offers more things to break in the future. besides are you really going to use ALL the features. Read HTSTEVE remark, buy the mac pre-pro that offers a matching system and a blu-ray Denon3800 or similar to decode the HT options. dts, neo6, etc. or any blu-ray that offers the options you want. like the oppo.

**sikoniko** · 16 February 2009, 16:43 Monday

Originally posted by wettou

Well to each his own, I love the Classé look, my favorite is the new Esoteric for looks.

It is true that the Denon does it all Classé claims Audyssey is crap and inconsistent?? I think Classé say this because they didn't want to pony-up the licensing fees they are now managed by investors!!

It is interesting that they are one of the only high end with a pre/pro with out any automated EQ correction!!!

I don't particularly care for the Denon look it is too much like the mass merchandise look for me, to bad they didn't upgrade the box to make it really stand out.

I just bought a piar of Headphone Denon AHD-7000 whoa :T

If licensing fees were so expensive, then why do the sub $500 receivers have Audyssey?

They didn't decide not to enable it because of licensing fees. And there is nothing that says they won't enable it in the future. It would be a simple software update to enable it.

Without getting into a philosophical arguement, the manual EQ can do everything you'd need to do with an automated solution. I agree that a automated process would be nice and Classe has left it open-ended to consider enabling it in the future. It just isn't there today.

**wettou** · 16 February 2009, 17:18 Monday

Originally posted by sikoniko

If licensing fees were so expensive, then why do the sub $500 receivers have Audyssey?

That's a good question then why not included it?? Maybe Onkyo, Denon and other licensed it for all their line so they got a discount......

Originally posted by sikoniko

They didn't decide not to enable it because of licensing fees. And there is nothing that says they won't enable it in the future. It would be a simple software update to enable it.

Classé told me there is no way they will implement it as it is rubbish from their perspective.

Originally posted by sikoniko

Without getting into a philosophical argument, the manual EQ can do everything you'd need to do with an automated solution. I agree that a automated process would be nice and Classe has left it open-ended to consider enabling it in the future. It just isn't there today.

Again Classé said in an email

The subject of room acoustics is complex and we do understand the appeal of an automatic EQ “fix” the room. However, as part of the B&W Group, we consulted with B&W Acousticians regarding the available automatic solutions and they insisted that none were of the quality that we require. In their opinion automatic EQ does not deliver consistent results, so if you repeatedly correct the same room with same automatic EQ software, you will get slightly different results every time.

Nevertheless we fully appreciate the impact that equalization can have, particularly in an environment that has been correctly set up and has identified issues with the less directional frequencies below 350Hz. We have therefore implemented a highly flexible manual solution that can deliver superlative results when correctly used. In fact, our EQ is in an incredibly powerful tool, and we really recommend that it be used only by an acoustician."

Same with DSD.

"In order to handle the raw DSD bitstream correctly and not simply convert it to a PCM signal, we needed to dedicate a discrete signal path for DSD signals, which would clearly impact the retail price of the component.

In order to establish whether this price increase was justifiable, we investigated the availability source players that are able to output DSD via HDMI. Our investigations suggested that this is not a common feature and to my knowledge it is only available on a handful of components, such as the OPPO DV-980H, the Pioneer DV-58AV, and the Cambridge Audio DVD99.

Furthermore, our engineering team suggested the conversion of DSD to analog is handled very effectively by high quality SACD players, such as those likely to be owned by a potential SSP-800 owner. These players can then be connected to the SSP-800 via multichannel analog bypass. In this context, it was decided not to incorporate DSD decoding into the SSP-800."

They forgot Oppo BD-83, Sony SCD-XA5400ES.....

I respect their opinion it would just have been nice to have both features :lol:

**sikoniko** · 17 February 2009, 15:20 Tuesday

Originally posted by wettou

That's a good question then why not included it?? Maybe Onkyo, Denon and other licensed it for all their line so they got a discount......

Classé told me there is no way they will implement it as it is rubbish from their perspective.

Again Classé said in an email

The subject of room acoustics is complex and we do understand the appeal of an automatic EQ “fix” the room. However, as part of the B&W Group, we consulted with B&W Acousticians regarding the available automatic solutions and they insisted that none were of the quality that we require. In their opinion automatic EQ does not deliver consistent results, so if you repeatedly correct the same room with same automatic EQ software, you will get slightly different results every time.

Nevertheless we fully appreciate the impact that equalization can have, particularly in an environment that has been correctly set up and has identified issues with the less directional frequencies below 350Hz. We have therefore implemented a highly flexible manual solution that can deliver superlative results when correctly used. In fact, our EQ is in an incredibly powerful tool, and we really recommend that it be used only by an acoustician."

Same with DSD.

"In order to handle the raw DSD bitstream correctly and not simply convert it to a PCM signal, we needed to dedicate a discrete signal path for DSD signals, which would clearly impact the retail price of the component.

In order to establish whether this price increase was justifiable, we investigated the availability source players that are able to output DSD via HDMI. Our investigations suggested that this is not a common feature and to my knowledge it is only available on a handful of components, such as the OPPO DV-980H, the Pioneer DV-58AV, and the Cambridge Audio DVD99.

Furthermore, our engineering team suggested the conversion of DSD to analog is handled very effectively by high quality SACD players, such as those likely to be owned by a potential SSP-800 owner. These players can then be connected to the SSP-800 via multichannel analog bypass. In this context, it was decided not to incorporate DSD decoding into the SSP-800."

They forgot Oppo BD-83, Sony SCD-XA5400ES.....

I respect their opinion it would just have been nice to have both features :lol:

I think it would derail this thread to turn it into a discussion of the SSP-800. Classe didn't set out to make all things for all people first of all.

Second, the door isn't closed on an automated EQ. That comes directly from Dave at CES. It just isn't there now. It might come eventually, and it might not. They have an opened mind on it.

**wettou** · 18 February 2009, 14:29 Wednesday

Originally posted by sikoniko

I think it would derail this thread to turn it into a discussion of the SSP-800. Classe didn't set out to make all things for all people first of all.

Second, the door isn't closed on an automated EQ. That comes directly from Dave at CES. It just isn't there now. It might come eventually, and it might not. They have an opened mind on it.

I guess other people at Classé are saying no way to automated EQ seems like they have some disagrements :cry:

Also I asked Audyssey very high in the management and Classé never even tested Audyssey!!! So what are they talking about?

**sikoniko** · 18 February 2009, 16:15 Wednesday

Originally posted by wettou

I guess other people at Classé are saying no way to automated EQ seems like they have some disagrements :cry:

Also I asked Audyssey very high in the management and Classé never even tested Audyssey!!! So what are they talking about?

spreading FUD isn't going to change what it is today.

Pre-pro Advice for 802D HT System

Pre-pro Advice for 802D HT System

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