What gives the most "bang for the buck"?

[sparky0173]

First off, let me declare that I'm a complete NOOB when it comes to high end sound equipment. I was hoping to get some sound advice from the more seasoned veterans on the best upgrade path.

I've been listening to 2 channel music from my B&W DM601 S3's powered by my humble Denon AVR-1802 and sourced from a Toshiba SD-6200 DVD player for some time. Now that I have just a bit more disposable income, I'm interested in hearing music closer to its intended sound. I know that any equipment upgrade would likely produce better music, but for $1000, where should my money be spent? Would higher quality speakers make more of difference than higher quality electronics? The way I see it, I could replace my speakers and use the same receiver or keep the speakers and invest in new a new amp or CD player or even a combination of the two.

I don't like upgrading for the sake of having the newest system around. What I ultimately want is tangible quality at a reasonable value. To that end, I don't mind used equipment as long as it was well taken care of. What are your thoughts? Any feedback would be GREATLY appreciated! :lol:

[Briz vegas]

At your level and with your $1000 budget I think you have an interesting challenge. You only want to change 1 component but it has the potential to reveal any weaknesses in the rest of the system. Receivers are trying to be everything to everyone, as are DVD players, and you know what that means - compromise.

I think it is logical to look at second hand speakers - maybe you could get N805 in the States for a grand. With some carefully selected cables (I am thinking synergy here, not expensive) you could get a nice improvement. You might also consider looking at other brands, pick something that is easy to drive and very efficient (not a B&W strength) as you don't have alot of watts. I would also think about your room as well - could it benefit from some work, wall hangins or bookshelfs in the right places could improve the results you are getting.

[artv4]

improve the source first

[dknightd]

I think you need to identify what you are missing, or want to improve, in your current setup. You also need to let us know what type of music you like, and how loud you listen. For example until recently my office system consisted of b&w 600 and t-amp (being fed from a dac connected to optical out on the computer). I don't play it loud, and I sit fairly close to the speakers, so the t-amp is fine (about 4watts max output, I rarely even get to 1/4 on the volume dial, probably 1/4-1/2 watt average). I liked this system just fine, but felt it was lacking in the lower registers, so I recently added a subwoofer (an SVS SB12). Floor standing speakers were not an option in my office, so a sub seemed like a good way to fill in the lower octave or two. I'm very happy with this addition. I considered upgrading the 600's, but they compete with computer fans so a high end speaker was going to be mostly wasted, and a bookshelf was never going to be full range.

IMO speakers and room account for the majority of sound quality (assuming there is nothing deficient in the rest of the setup - your setup seems to be well balanced). So if I was in your boat I'd go out and listen to speakers - for $1k you can get some pretty nice speakers. It is also amazing what a few hundred dollars of properly placed compressed fiberglass and fabric covering can do. But again you first need to decide what it is about your current system you want to upgrade - do you want more bass, more volume, smoother midrange and treble, more dynamics, better soundstage, etc . . .

edit - you also need to decide if this is going to be part of a longer term, slow upgrade, or just a one shot boost for now.

[WI Rotel]

As always, the most important component is speakers. However 1K does not go very far in that arena (particularly with BW). Wait a little bit and check out some CDMs or check out some other brands, the fact that BW makes very good dspeakers doesn't mean you can't get something as good for less money elsewhere. Take a look at Monitor Audio.

[hifiguymi]

You have a surround sound receiver now so if you are going to stay with two channel I would upgrade the the amplification first with the system you have and then look at a good CD player. You can get a nice integrated amp, new or used, that would be a huge improvement over the AVR-1802 and have money left over to get a nice CD player.

I know the DM601 S3s very well and they are capable of much more than you are getting out of them currently. That said there are better speakers out there but I think the other areas are much weaker at this point.

Eric

[DM3000 Owner]

For $1000 you need to stick with your speakers. Get an integrated amp and cd player. Used Musical Fidelity performs well beyond its price point. Buy these:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1224821986&/Musical-Fidelity-A3-integrated

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1225748418&/Musical-Fidelity-A-3-CD-Excell

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1222880873&/Musical-Fidelity-A3.2-CD-Playe

[htsteve]

Some more used to consider:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1226011236&/B-W-683-pair-in-Cherry

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1225669092&/B-W-CM7-Wenge-Finish

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1225481320&/B-W-CM4-Maple

[DM3000 Owner]

Some more used to consider:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1226011236&/B-W-683-pair-in-Cherry

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1225669092&/B-W-CM7-Wenge-Finish

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls..../B-W-CM4-Maple

I am not familiar with the 602's that he already has. I assume the integrated and CD player will help them quite a bit, and if an upgrade to 700 or 804's or 805's ever happens, the MF gear is plenty for them.

[sparky0173]

hifiguymi,

I use a surround receiver because I do watch movies on occasion with my system (~25% of the time). I have DM600 S3's for rears and I just purchsed a used CDM Cnt for the center channel. It seems that many of you are suggesting upgrading the amplification. I believe my receiver has preouts, so would hooking up a Rotel 1075 work?

What really spurred on the idea of an upgrade was the recent acquisition of the CDM Cnt. I did some one channel A/B speaker comparisons between my current DM601 S3's and the CDM Cnt and notice that the sound from the CDM was much more open, less muffled, more detailed, and louder. Certainly with $1000 bucks, I know that compromises have to made. I don't mind upgrading slowly and I like to maximize the performance of what I have before moving on to the next. Up until this time, I've been mostly entertaining the idea of getting better speakers (possibly used CDM 7nts), but a few members have brought up some interesting points about the importance of good amplification and even having the room setup properly. Much to think about....

[hifiguymi]

The receiver you have doesn't have preamp outputs for anything except the subwoofer so you can't add an amp. Since you do use your system for surround as well, I'd look at a better receiver. There are quite a few good receivers that you could find in that price range that would be an improvement. I more than ever would still stick with the amplification route in your system. An example of a couple of good receivers in that price range you can find here.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4484.asp

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4527.asp

Best of luck and let us know what you ultimately do.

Eric

[sparky0173]

Eric,

Again I'm very new at this, but I think I do have preouts on my receiver. On page 9 of the pdf, I think the diagram shows preouts for the L, R, C, and sub. http://ca.denon.com/avr1802_ownersmanual.pdf Could you verify whether this is true? I'd had to get a power amp only to find that it is incompatible with my receiver.

In another post, some members have mentioned better values in amplifiers such as Emotiva over Rotel. I wanted to get some input from B&W speaker owners on what has worked well. Remember, I've only got about $1000 to spend

[DM3000 Owner]

The receiver you have doesn't have preamp outputs for anything except the subwoofer so you can't add an amp. Since you do use your system for surround as well, I'd look at a better receiver. There are quite a few good receivers that you could find in that price range that would be an improvement. I more than ever would still stick with the amplification route in your system. An example of a couple of good receivers in that price range you can find here.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4484.asp

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4527.asp

Best of luck and let us know what you ultimately do.

Eric

I thought that 2 channel was the objective. If surround is the objective, then a receiver is in order. If 2 channel, go for the Musical Fidelity A3 series. It should really outperform the Denon receiver for 2 channel.

[sc2]

Personally, I recommend you keep saving...

[hifiguymi]

Eric,

Again I'm very new at this, but I think I do have preouts on my receiver. On page 9 of the pdf, I think the diagram shows preouts for the L, R, C, and sub. http://ca.denon.com/avr1802_ownersmanual.pdf Could you verify whether this is true? I'd had to get a power amp only to find that it is incompatible with my receiver.

In another post, some members have mentioned better values in amplifiers such as Emotiva over Rotel. I wanted to get some input from B&W speaker owners on what has worked well. Remember, I've only got about $1000 to spend

You are right. I looked at the productsheet (it's a smaller file than the owners manual so I looked at that) and it only shows the subwoofer output. I looked closer at the productsheet and although it says it's for the AVR-1802 the picture is of the AVR-1602. The owners manual does show preamp outputs but not for the rear speakers .

I would still get a new receiver and give yourself a better upgrade path later on. With that advice, I'd take the AVR-2309CI out of the running because it doesn't have preamp outputs for all channels. Take a look at this one from Pioneer Elite as well.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Products/HomeEntertainment/AV-Receivers/EliteReceivers/ci.VSX-03TXH.Kuro

Eric

[GregLett]

hifiguymi,

I use a surround receiver because I do watch movies on occasion with my system (~25% of the time). I have DM600 S3's for rears and I just purchsed a used CDM Cnt for the center channel. It seems that many of you are suggesting upgrading the amplification. I believe my receiver has preouts, so would hooking up a Rotel 1075 work?

What really spurred on the idea of an upgrade was the recent acquisition of the CDM Cnt. I did some one channel A/B speaker comparisons between my current DM601 S3's and the CDM Cnt and notice that the sound from the CDM was much more open, less muffled, more detailed, and louder. Certainly with $1000 bucks, I know that compromises have to made. I don't mind upgrading slowly and I like to maximize the performance of what I have before moving on to the next. Up until this time, I've been mostly entertaining the idea of getting better speakers (possibly used CDM 7nts), but a few members have brought up some interesting points about the importance of good amplification and even having the room setup properly. Much to think about....

This says it all. If you were happy with the improvement the new center made the I would suggest get new/used cdm 7's.

[dknightd]

This says it all. If you were happy with the improvement the new center made the I would suggest get new/used cdm 7's.

I agree. You might as well get speakers that match your center since you do use this for movie and music. Maybe you could get a used cdm 9nt for your budget (they are getting kind of old), if not the 7nt is also a nice speaker and will be marked improvement over your 601 for stereo and a better match with your center for movies.

[Briz vegas]

Opinions seem to be running 50/50 for speakers v electronics.

I can say from personal experience that the last thing I would consider upgrading is the source. I tried a Naim 5X years ago (some time before I finally purchased one) in front of my 110w Marantz receiver (with a 100 power amp to drive a pair of 804s) and I could not tell the difference between it and a modest DVD player I had been using. My next upgrade was to add a 2 channel preamp with theatre bypass (Conrad Johnson PV14Ls2 - very very nice preamp). Once the preamp was in place I could hear how much better the Naim CD player was.

The CDM NT centre is basically a CDM NT1, so either the NT1 or the NT7 would be good. NT9 would have the FST as its the model the 703 replaced, and that would make it a hard speaker for your little amp to drive.

For 25% movies I would not be going for a new receiver - even at a grand it is a compromised piece of kit compared to the musical fidelity models suggested above. I remember replacing my 70 watt NAD with a 110 watt Marantz and the differences were not really worth it at the time (I had Mordaunt Short MS30s speakers circa 1986 at the time and a Toshiba DVD player circa 1997 or there about)

[Alaric]

If the objective is two channel-I would suggest getting the best speakers you can afford , then build on that platform. My $.02

[sparky0173]

Here's a question I was hoping for some clarification... If one were to purchase a decent quality amplifier, would there be any reason to upgrade the amplifier besides equipment failure, inadequate power to handle and future speaker upgrades, or improvements in amplifier technology? I guess I'm trying to understand a bit more about the upgrade path.

With camera equipment, I've learned to invest in high quality lenses because that makes the most difference in picture quality. Fancy camera bodies have features that make certain tasks easier, but having a lesser camera body doesn't necessarily preclude you from taking great pictures. I wonder if the same concept would apply more so toward amplifiers as opposed to speakers?

In regards to the Musical Fidelity integrated amps, do you just plug in the source and you are ready to go? Can I run wires from my preouts from the Denon receiver to the MF amp and then to the speakers? Sorry if these questions are so basic, but I'm trying to learn quickly!

[dknightd]

Don't forget to come back after you decide

[artv4]

my personal experience has shown me that upgrading the source first really makes a dramatic impact on an existing system. i used to own a linn mimic cd player and it made a huge difference compared to my old rotel cd player. this allowed me to wait and save for a much better system

[Briz vegas]

In regards to the Musical Fidelity integrated amps, do you just plug in the source and you are ready to go? Can I run wires from my preouts from the Denon receiver to the MF amp and then to the speakers? Sorry if these questions are so basic, but I'm trying to learn quickly!

You are likely to find that the pre-stage on your Denon is the weakest link, fine for movies but lacking for 2 channel.

The solution is to hook your CD player direct to the MF for two channel.

For multi channel you run the Denons preouts R/ L into one of the MFs spare inputs. Some integrated amps have a theater input that allows you to bypass their preamp stage but I don't think this MF has that facility. To get around this problem you start by setting the volume on the MF to zero then gradually increase the volume setting until it is as loud as the other speakers (using the test tone on the receiver). Make a note of the volume setting on the MF, this volume is sometimes referred to as "unity gain".

If you use this setup you will get better 2 channel sound and the only negative for home theater (vs a dedicated power amp) is that you will have to remember to set the volume on the MF to the unity gain setting before watching a movie.

I use this sort of setup, although my amp has the theatre bypass input.

[sparky0173]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I ended up getting a pair of used 7nt's in great condition! I was able to audition them at the seller's home. I heard music played from his Esoteric CD player linked to a fancy DAC with a gain control that was hooked up directly into 250w Parasound amps. The speakers definitely performed! Great detail, open soundstage, and tremendous clarity.

After bringing them home, I began to notice the deficiencies in my own setup. Granted they are not properly positioned at the moment, the sound that came out of them were not as lively. Having said that, they still sounded MUCH fuller than the DM601's. I suspect the 80W coming out of my receiver just isn't producing enough power to drive the speakers properly and the better speakers are really beginning to expose this!

The person who sold me the speakers recommended that I move away from the receiver and into seperates as soon as I could afford it. I'm wondering if getting decent quality 2 channel power amp with some power is the way to go. I ended up getting pretty good deal on the speakers, so now I have a bit of head room to buy a used 2 channel amp if I searched carefully. He recommended a used Acurus A150 amp. He said for the money (~$200-$250 used), they can't be beat. What do you think? Do you think getting 2 channel amp at this point is worthwhile or should I save up some more and get something better? Is there anything around $200-$300 dollars that is even worth looking at used? Again 2 channel audio is my main priority and I do have preouts on my receiver.

[wettou]

After bringing them home, I began to notice the deficiencies in my own setup. Granted they are not properly positioned at the moment, the sound that came out of them were not as lively. Having said that, they still sounded MUCH fuller than the DM601's. I suspect the 80W coming out of my receiver just isn't producing enough power to drive the speakers properly and the better speakers are really beginning to expose this!

The person who sold me the speakers recommended that I move away from the receiver and into seperates as soon as I could afford it. I'm wondering if getting decent quality 2 channel power amp with some power is the way to go. I ended up getting pretty good deal on the speakers, so now I have a bit of head room to buy a used 2 channel amp if I searched carefully. He recommended a used Acurus A150 amp. He said for the money (~$200-$250 used), they can't be beat. What do you think? Do you think getting 2 channel amp at this point is worthwhile or should I save up some more and get something better? Is there anything around $200-$300 dollars that is even worth looking at used? Again 2 channel audio is my main priority and I do have preouts on my receiver.

Separate is the way to go if you don't want to break the bank look at this:

Emotiva:T

[DM3000 Owner]

Just wanted to let you guys know that I ended up getting a pair of used 7nt's in great condition! I was able to audition them at the seller's home. I heard music played from his Esoteric CD player linked to a fancy DAC with a gain control that was hooked up directly into 250w Parasound amps. The speakers definitely performed! Great detail, open soundstage, and tremendous clarity.

After bringing them home, I began to notice the deficiencies in my own setup. Granted they are not properly positioned at the moment, the sound that came out of them were not as lively. Having said that, they still sounded MUCH fuller than the DM601's. I suspect the 80W coming out of my receiver just isn't producing enough power to drive the speakers properly and the better speakers are really beginning to expose this!

The person who sold me the speakers recommended that I move away from the receiver and into seperates as soon as I could afford it. I'm wondering if getting decent quality 2 channel power amp with some power is the way to go. I ended up getting pretty good deal on the speakers, so now I have a bit of head room to buy a used 2 channel amp if I searched carefully. He recommended a used Acurus A150 amp. He said for the money (~$200-$250 used), they can't be beat. What do you think? Do you think getting 2 channel amp at this point is worthwhile or should I save up some more and get something better? Is there anything around $200-$300 dollars that is even worth looking at used? Again 2 channel audio is my main priority and I do have preouts on my receiver.

Congrats on your speakers.

Skip it for now. Also don't get too caught up on power ratings. 100 wpc from a quality component is going to be significantly more than 80 wpc from a cheap receiver.

If you need to go really low budget, either check out the Musical Fidelity A3 line or for separates the Forte Audio preamps and power amps are very low priced.

[dknightd]

Congrats on your new speakers - good choice.

The Acurus A150 seems like a reasonable recomendation, especially if you can get one for $200-250.

[artv4]

Go With Rotel!!!!

[wettou]

Go With Rotel!!!!

No Rotel is made in China like Emotiva, except you don't pay for dealer margins with Emotiva. And you can try it for 30 days at home no questions ask