Rotel RSX-1057 or Denon AVR-3808CI for 658?

[frog2frog]

Hi All

I am going to get a B&W-685 5.1 setup, but for the receiver, I am debating between Rotel RSX-1057 and Denon AVR-3808CI.

In terms of sound quality, which one would be better and what would be their difference?

I all new to this, any suggestion will help greatly.
Thank you

[kmcheng]

I think the Rotel sounds better on CDs and DVDs with standard Dolby Digital/DTS sound tracks, but that is a matter of personal tastes.

However, if the only choices are Rotel 1057 and Denon 3808, then I would definitely pick Denon over Rotel. The reason is that the Rotel 1057 cannot handle multi-channel PCM via HDMI, but the Denon does. I think if one is buying a new, mid- to high-end receiver these days, one should really look for this particular feature to make sure the purchase is future-proof. This feature allows you to hear the lossless sound tracks (Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD-MA, and lossless multi-channel PCM) on certain Blu-ray discs. The lossless codecs usually present very audible improvements over the good-old Dolby Digital.

If you can swing for the Rotel 1058, which can handle multi-channel PCM over HDMI, then you would have the best of both worlds.

[htsteve]

I think the Rotel sounds better on CDs and DVDs with standard Dolby Digital/DTS sound tracks, but that is a matter of personal tastes.

However, if the only choices are Rotel 1057 and Denon 3808, then I would definitely pick Denon over Rotel. The reason is that the Rotel 1057 cannot handle multi-channel PCM via HDMI, but the Denon does. I think if one is buying a new, mid- to high-end receiver these days, one should really look for this particular feature to make sure the purchase is future-proof. This feature allows you to hear the lossless sound tracks (Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD-MA, and lossless multi-channel PCM) on certain Blu-ray discs. The lossless codecs usually present very audible improvements over the good-old Dolby Digital.

If you can swing for the Rotel 1058, which can handle multi-channel PCM over HDMI, then you would have the best of both worlds.

Agreed. Having heard Dolby True HD and DTS MA, it is definitely something to be looking for. However, in my case, my pre-amp doesn't do this processing, so I got a BR player that does and I port it over via analog. A different option to consider (i.e. get the 1057 and find a BR player that decodes the HD audio).

I like the sound of Rotel and B&W 6 series (I used to own this combo). As was noted, I think the 1058 is the best of both worlds: Sound quality and current processing all in one package.


Hope this helps.

[hifiguymi]

Depending on when you are going to make the purchase the difference between the AVR-3808CI and the RSX-1058 won't be that big. Right now the AVR-3808CI is $1600.00US but is going up to $1800.00US on July 1st.

I agree with both htsteve and kmcheng on everything they said by the way.

Eric

Edit: The AVR-3808CI is going up to $1700.00US on July 1st, not $1800.00US.

[artv4]

hi,
i would go with the rsx-1058. the power reserves on the rsx-1058 by far surpass the internal components in the denon.

[kmcheng]

Agreed. Having heard Dolby True HD and DTS MA, it is definitely something to be looking for. However, in my case, my pre-amp doesn't do this processing, so I got a BR player that does and I port it over via analog. A different option to consider (i.e. get the 1057 and find a BR player that decodes the HD audio).

Agreed. That is one solution to the bandwidth challenge presented by the lossless codecs. However, I am still having a hard time finding a BR player that can decode DTS-MA and output the signals in analog. Htsteve: which player do you own?

There is another problem with Blu-ray. It is far from being an agreed-upon standard. Stand-alone players became obsolete too quickly. The only exception is the PS3, the firmware of which is updated aggressively by Sony. (It is also one of the cheapest BR players available.) However, the PS3 can only output the lossless tracks via HDMI -- it does not have 5.1 analog outs.

By the way, if a forum administrator is looking at this thread, may I suggest that it be moved to Club Rotel. That way it may get a few more eyeballs and hopefully more inputs.

[audioqueso]

I agree with the Denon as well. Even though I prefer the Rotel sound over Denon's AV receivers, the lack of supporting the new lossless via HDMI is big enough to place the Rotel behind the Denon. I bought a Marantz SR7002 if you're interested to hear about it.

[Mig17]

I don't agree with some opinion that Rotel sbetter than the Denon in standard DVD

I think Denon is very best in home theater
but when come to music Rotel it is far behind

[audioqueso]

Well yes, I agree with what Mig17 says. In terms of movie, I'm not sure who would be better. Denon is pretty exceptional with HT. But in music, that's where I don't care too much for the Denon AV receiver sounds. I like their integrated equipment, but the last time I heard a Denon with music, it was too colored for me. I don't really know how the new Denon CI's are.

What is more important to you? Music or movies?

[frog2frog]

For me i guess 70% move 30% music. So should I get the Denon or the Rotel?

[hifiguymi]

Agreed. That is one solution to the bandwidth challenge presented by the lossless codecs. However, I am still having a hard time finding a BR player that can decode DTS-MA and output the signals in analog. Htsteve: which player do you own?

There aren't that many right now but there will be a few in about 60 days or so. Panasonic will have the DMP-BD50 this month, Pioneer will have the BDP-05FD (the Elite model) in July along with the BDP-51FD, and Sony will have the BDP-S550 in August / September. The Pioneer models and the Sony will have 7.1 analog outputs and the Panasonic will be 5.1. These are in addition to the Denon DVD-3800BDCI which is out now. The thing I don't know on the models that haven't shipped yet is what sort of bass management they have and if you can set speaker size and distance as well. The Denon does it all, and very well, but it comes at a price.

There is another problem with Blu-ray. It is far from being an agreed-upon standard. Stand-alone players became obsolete too quickly. The only exception is the PS3, the firmware of which is updated aggressively by Sony. (It is also one of the cheapest BR players available.) However, the PS3 can only output the lossless tracks via HDMI -- it does not have 5.1 analog outs.

This is false. The BD standards have been set for a while. The final Profile is Profile 1.1 and it is mandatory on all players introduced after Nov. 1st, 2007. Profile 2.0 is totally optional. Any disc will play on any player (although the player may need a firmware update which are easy to do). The worst case is an early Profile 1.0 player will not be able to do PIP when watching the movie. That is what Profile 1.1 adds. Profile 2.0 adds internet capability so you can download more features about the movie or things like movie trailers.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

For me i guess 70% move 30% music. So should I get the Denon or the Rotel?

Which Rotel? The RSX-1057 or the RSX-1058. In order I'd put the RSX-1058 as the first option, the AVR-3808CI as the second, and the RSX-1057 third. Just my two cents.

Eric

[htsteve]

Agreed. That is one solution to the bandwidth challenge presented by the lossless codecs. However, I am still having a hard time finding a BR player that can decode DTS-MA and output the signals in analog. Htsteve: which player do you own?

kmcheng,

I own the Denon 3800BDCI BR player. It's one of the more expensive players out there, but it does everything that I wanted. It scales legacy DVD's, BR's look great and decodes all the HD audio formats via analog (it does HDMI as well). One really nice feature is that it uses 4 Burr Brown DAC's for HD audio processing, one for each two channels. The sound via analog out in uncompressed is outstanding. A clear upgrade to simply sending the signal digitally to my pre-amp.

I believe Sony and Panasonic (BD50) will shortly have more affordable players that also decode via analog.

Hope this helps.

[artv4]

Which Rotel? The RSX-1057 or the RSX-1058. In order I'd put the RSX-1058 as the first option, the AVR-3808CI as the second, and the RSX-1057 third. Just my two cents.

Eric

i agree.

[kmcheng]

This is false. The BD standards have been set for a while. The final Profile is Profile 1.1 and it is mandatory on all players introduced after Nov. 1st, 2007. Profile 2.0 is totally optional. Any disc will play on any player (although the player may need a firmware update which are easy to do). The worst case is an early Profile 1.0 player will not be able to do PIP when watching the movie. That is what Profile 1.1 adds. Profile 2.0 adds internet capability so you can download more features about the movie or things like movie trailers.

Eric

It is good to know that Profile 1.1 was final as of November 2007. But that is my point: On top of the "final" standard, there is an "optional" Profile 2.0 standard. And then there are also different HDMI versions and different HD audio codecs. And then some blu-ray discs come in 1080i not 1080p. All of these make my head spins.

I am not bashing Blu-ray here. In fact, I enjoy every second I am watching Blu-ray movies and have stopped watching SD DVD after I bought my PS3. I just think that the manufacturers can make life easier by simplifying things. The PS3 makes life easier. The Denon and the Rotel 1058 make life easier. Actually, the Rotel 1058 has a terrible user interface so life is still quite difficult with that one. The Rotel 1057 does not make life easier because now I have to look and/or wait for a Blu-ray player that can do analog out. (Thanks to htsteve and hifimguymi for listing them.)

Anyway, back to frog2frog's questions regarding the receivers. I can think of another option: Onkyo 605, or other similar mass-market receivers. Just make sure the unit can handle 1080p video and HD audio. I myself could not hear a $1500 difference in sound quality between the Onkyo and the Rotel 1058 when playing movies, especially with smaller room dimensions. With the money saved, however, one could acquire a dedicated pre-amp/amp or integrated amp for two-channel listening.

[Allegiance]

I'd go for the Denon, purely based on my personal experience with a 2808.

[hifiguymi]

It is good to know that Profile 1.1 was final as of November 2007. But that is my point: On top of the "final" standard, there is an "optional" Profile 2.0 standard. And then there are also different HDMI versions and different HD audio codecs. And then some blu-ray discs come in 1080i not 1080p. All of these make my head spins.

I will agree that having a optional Profile does add to confusion. The things that the optional Profile adds are things that most consumers don't really care about in my experience. I can count on one hand how many customers I've talked to that really get into special features on DVD or BD. The other things you mention are not directly related to BD. Different HDMI versions and different video resolutions happen outside of BD as well.

I am not bashing Blu-ray here. In fact, I enjoy every second I am watching Blu-ray movies and have stopped watching SD DVD after I bought my PS3. I just think that the manufacturers can make life easier by simplifying things. The PS3 makes life easier. The Denon and the Rotel 1058 make life easier. Actually, the Rotel 1058 has a terrible user interface so life is still quite difficult with that one. The Rotel 1057 does not make life easier because now I have to look and/or wait for a Blu-ray player that can do analog out. (Thanks to htsteve and hifimguymi for listing them.)

The AVR-3808CI does have a very nice on screen user interface, I'll agree. The RSX-1058 is a little dated by comparison. Once you set the receiver up however you don't use that part of the receiver very often. Overall I don't think the RSX-1058 is hampered by it UI. The RSX-1057 is hampered by its inability to accept audio over the HDMI. It's a great sounding receiver, but that one thing has made it hard to sell.

Anyway, back to frog2frog's questions regarding the receivers. I can think of another option: Onkyo 605, or other similar mass-market receivers. Just make sure the unit can handle 1080p video and HD audio. I myself could not hear a $1500 difference in sound quality between the Onkyo and the Rotel 1058 when playing movies, especially with smaller room dimensions. With the money saved, however, one could acquire a dedicated pre-amp/amp or integrated amp for two-channel listening.

I don't sell Onkyo but I have heard the TX-SR605. It's OK for a $600.00US receiver. Very similar to the Denon AVR-1908 and AVR-2308CI from memory. I have every confidence that the RSX-1058 is MUCH better. The Rotel sounds better than the AVR-3808CI and that is quite a bit better than the AVR-2308CI. If someone is looking at the receivers mentioned I don't think the TX-SR605 will fit the bill.

Eric

[kmcheng]

I don't sell Onkyo but I have heard the TX-SR605. It's OK for a $600.00US receiver. Very similar to the Denon AVR-1908 and AVR-2308CI from memory. I have every confidence that the RSX-1058 is MUCH better. The Rotel sounds better than the AVR-3808CI and that is quite a bit better than the AVR-2308CI. If someone is looking at the receivers mentioned I don't think the TX-SR605 will fit the bill.

Eric

Eric,

I have a related question and would very much like to hear your insider opinion. If one were to use only the processor portion of a mass-market receiver and power the speakers with something like the Rotel 1075 or Rotel 1095, would that combination sould better than a Rotel 1058 alone? (I note that both the 1075 and the 1095 are more powerful than the 1058.) If there is an audible difference in sound quality, would that difference only come from the different DACs? Are there any differences in the digital domain that distinguish, say, a Rotel from an Onkyo?

I am not disputing what you say about Rotel 1058 sounding better than a low-end Onkyo. However, I am also trying to make some upgrade decision myself. I am debating whether to get a Rotel 1069 or simply get a Denon/Pioneer/Sony/Onkyo receiver (just to use the processor portion). If I have external 5.1 amplication already, what and how much improvements am I getting with a Rotel vs. other mass market brands?

With all the video problems associated with the Rotel 1069 (and I remeber some members also say the same thing about 1058 ), I am very hesitant about purchasing it. I like the Rotel sound better, but am still wondering if it is worth the troubles over the Denon.

[hifiguymi]

Eric,

I have a related question and would very much like to hear your insider opinion. If one were to use only the processor portion of a mass-market receiver and power the speakers with something like the Rotel 1075 or Rotel 1095, would that combination sould better than a Rotel 1058 alone? (I note that both the 1075 and the 1095 are more powerful than the 1058.) If there is an audible difference in sound quality, would that difference only come from the different DACs? Are there any differences in the digital domain that distinguish, say, a Rotel from an Onkyo?

I am not disputing what you say about Rotel 1058 sounding better than a low-end Onkyo. However, I am also trying to make some upgrade decision myself. I am debating whether to get a Rotel 1069 or simply get a Denon/Pioneer/Sony/Onkyo receiver (just to use the processor portion). If I have external 5.1 amplication already, what and how much improvements am I getting with a Rotel vs. other mass market brands?

With all the video problems associated with the Rotel 1069 (and I remeber some members also say the same thing about 1058 ), I am very hesitant about purchasing it. I like the Rotel sound better, but am still wondering if it is worth the troubles over the Denon.

The DACs and the processor are better designs and/or implemented better in the Rotel in my opinion. The TI Aureus processor that Rotel uses in the RSP-1069 (and the RSX-1058 ) is very, very good (Classe is using Aureus processors in the SSP-800 as well). Things like power supply, circuit design, and chassis quality have a big impact on digital circuits as well.

The differences are not just in the DACs and processor but also the analog section. The Denon AVR-3808CI is an OK preamp. It's a little bit hard in the treble and the bass is full just not super detailed. The RSP-1069 is noticeably better in every way as far as sound quality. The RSX-1058 is based on the RSP-1069 but they are not the same. The RSP-1069 is designed as a preamp only from the ground up and has a better power supply for that task.

I know the Rotel pieces are not for everybody and there are quite a few nice receivers out there in the $1000.00 - $2000.00US price range. As far as preamps go, there aren't that many in the price range of the RSP-1069 ($2000.00US). Pretty much all of the issues that Rotel had with the RSP-1069 (and RSX-1058 ) have been addressed. I do understand the argument that you are paying for a scaler that is better bypassed but I look at it as a glass half full. At least you CAN bypass it, unlike most receivers. If you have a good scaler in your display, why be tied to the one in the preamp / receiver? With the Denon receivers you have to use it. You have no choice. I'm not sure about the Onkyo. You'd have to check on that.

I know this is a little of topic so if you have any more questions, just PM me.

Eric

[frog2frog]

Eric

Thank you so much for all the great info.

For scaler, do you mean the video i/p scaler from analog to 1080p? if so, doesn't the Denon 3080CI has the option of turning it off? I was looking at their manual which I downloaded, on page 30 there mentioned the option of turning it off.

am I mistaken?
Thanks

[frog2frog]

[With the Denon receivers you have to use it. You have no choice]Eric

Thank you so much for all the great info.

For scaler, do you mean the video i/p scaler from analog to 1080p? if so, doesn't the Denon 3080CI has the option of turning it off? I was looking at their manual which I downloaded, on page 30 there mentioned the option of turning it off.

am I mistaken?
Thanks[/QUOTE]

[Allegiance]

Eric

Thank you so much for all the great info.

For scaler, do you mean the video i/p scaler from analog to 1080p? if so, doesn't the Denon 3080CI has the option of turning it off? I was looking at their manual which I downloaded, on page 30 there mentioned the option of turning it off.

am I mistaken?
Thanks

Yes you can turn it off, not sure what Eric means... 8O

[Mig17]

I would pcik up the Deonon it is like rock solid

[audioqueso]

I would pcik up the Deonon it is like rock solid

Even the HDMI portion? I bought a Marantz SR7002 cause 1) I like the Marantz sound and 2) I wanted to output my DVD player via HDMI along with all my other components. But as I'm finding out, HDMI is a pain in the ass.

Unfortunately, I do not have a blu-ray player to say the audio from blu-ray is worth it. I'm sure it is, but right now I'm hating HDMI.