Which electronics should I get with my B&W speakers?

[SPACEMANRICK]

When I bought my 802 diamond speakers in April 2011 I bought them as a package deal with my Cambridge Audio 200 watt 840 W amp and 840 E preamp so I managed to get the amps for about 40% off MSRP. I find that they sound great with my speakers though I have not compared them in my room to the higher priced Classe, Bryston, or Mcintosh amps.

Many people seem to have good success with their Emotiva amps so I suggest that you look into them also. After you have decent amp that has enough power to run the speakers I think you should next look at acoustically treating your room.....that is likely my next upgrade.

[Paxtonm]

Updating and downsizing

Hi,
New, so I apologize if this is repetitive or trivial. We need to adapt to a smaller setup, so the current gear is eBay-bound. Selling Snell Type E IIIs, B&K St 140, a five disc Sony CD player that is pretty lame, and a Rotel preamplifier/tuner. We auditioned and love the B&W 685s, and I am considering the Harman Kardon 3490 receiver and Marantz 5004 CD player. We plan to keep a great Thorens turntable. Are we making any mistakes? Besides saving space, we really like the B&Ws, and having iPod and mp3 compatibility is big, too. If money allows, I would also purchase the B&W sw 608 unit for low end punch. What is the best starting point for crooover level?

Sorry if this is a bother, and thanks in advance.
Mark

[wadeh911]

Classe CA-5300 with B&W 803 Diamonds

After 31 years of waiting...and listening.....and hours and hours of reading forums (even before the internet), my next dream 2 channel setup and 5 channel home theater setup will be complete next week. Can't thank all of you enough for your honest comments and suggestions. Kal, you in particular have inspired me to make this investment. My Yamaha gear has been excellent but its time for separates and after listening I decided on 803's over many many others, and Classe over Krell, went with 5 channel Class D instead of two Class A monoblocks. When I fired up the 803's even on my 130Wx6ch Yamaha Receiver, Zoot Sims and Ella Fitzgerald never sounded better. Will send pictures once things are in place:

Pioneer Elite Kuro 60" Plasma Pro151FD
B&W 803 Diamonds- Left/Right (arrived 3 weeks ago- Audiogon)
Classe CA-5300 Amplifier (arriving next week- Audiogon)
Yamaha YPD-9 Turntable, multiple MM and MC cartridges (I love vinyl)
Yamaha RXV3300 for Tuner/Preamp, 6 channel Analog in from Oppo
Emotiva UMC-1 Preamp/Processor (arriving from brother in law when?)
Oppo BDP-83SE Special Edition Player
Toshiba HD-XA2 Player
B&W LCR60S3 Front & Ceiling Rear Center- Movies Only
B&W CCM80 In Ceilings Rear Left/Rear Right- Movies Only
Kipsch 12" KSW12 Powered Sub- Movies only
All the video toys Xbox360 & PS3 & Apple TV streaming from Server
Windows 7 64 Bit Custom Audio & Video Server, I7-980X Extreme CPU, Nvidia GTX480 Graphics Card, 24GB Memory, 4 Terabytes Raid 10 Storage, Raptor System Drives
HD Tracks/FLAC audio Library/WMA Lossless Streaming to Audio System
Macallan 18 single malt

[Meerkoetje]

I have a question for my B&W speakers. I have a pair of CM7's, and at the moment they are connected to a Denon DRA-700AE. Everything sounds very nice from my point of view, but I would really like a AV-Receiver. So I saw the Denon AVR-3312/3311 and it looked interesting. Now my question is, will I be able to use the AVR-3312/3311 as a pre-amp, and the DRA-700AE as an end-amp? And if so, is this something you would recommend or is it better just to use the AVR? And will that be enough for the CM7's?

Thanks in advance

[htsteve]

Meerkoetje,

First of all, welcome to the forum! :T


As to your question, both the units you describe do essentially the same thing, just with different numbers of channels. The 700AE is an integrated stereo amp. It will do 2 channel and amplify your CM7's. A receiver will do the same thing, except it is designed to process and amplify a full HT, up to 7.1 typically (and handle video as well). So having one as a processor and the other as a amp does not make sense. And will most likely degrade the performance, even if one can make the signal path work.

Are you planning to move to HT? Then the new receiver makes sense.
Down the road, you can always get an external amp for the system and use the Denon 3311/12 as the pre-amp.


Hope this helps.

[Meerkoetje]

Thank you for your clear answer . That does really help me!

In the future I think I will move to HT, maybe a set of CM1's as surround speakers, a nice subwoofer and a centre speaker. I understand the part that my DRA does the same as the AVR, but only on HT level . Thank you for that explanation. I think I will go for the 3312, or the 3311.

Can you give me advice on which of these 2 is better? I was told the 3311 may be a better because Denon is degrading it's AVR's with each new year? Do you know anything about that ? Or is it wiser to spend a little more and go for the AVR 4311? Will that make a big difference?

[htsteve]

Meerkoetje,

Sounds like a good HT plan. That will be quite nice.

As to 3311 vs. 3312, I think they are very similar. In that case, I would look for a good deal on the 3311 and go with that. Save money for the external amp. Or HT components.

The 4311 is an idea, but you can spend the price differential in more effective ways. You can get a 3311, an Emotiva 5 channel amp, and have money left over.

If you do want to save a little, I would recommend this:

Denon 3311 ($850 at Amazon)
Emotive XPA-3. 3 channel amp, 200 watts/channel. $700.

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm

You can use this combo now with the CM7's. They will LOVE the current delivery of the XPA-3.

Later on, when you build out your HT, you simply add the center and surround speakers. Run the front three speaker off the XPA-3, and the rears off the 3311.

If you really want to kick it up later, add the center speaker and surrounds. Then add a stereo amp like the XPA-2. Run the CM7's off the XPA-2, and the center/surrounds off the XPA-3. A very nice setup. This is the way I have my HT. A stereo amp on the mains, and a multi-channel for the rest. Works very well. Everyone gets all the current they want.


You can also consider Emotiva for a pre-amp as well. Eliminate the receiver, and go separates.


Hope this helps.

[Tweir]

Good recommendations! B&W's love power so the separate amps is the way to go....

[Meerkoetje]

Meerkoetje,

Sounds like a good HT plan. That will be quite nice.

As to 3311 vs. 3312, I think they are very similar. In that case, I would look for a good deal on the 3311 and go with that. Save money for the external amp. Or HT components.

The 4311 is an idea, but you can spend the price differential in more effective ways. You can get a 3311, an Emotiva 5 channel amp, and have money left over.

If you do want to save a little, I would recommend this:

Denon 3311 ($850 at Amazon)
Emotive XPA-3. 3 channel amp, 200 watts/channel. $700.

http://emotiva.com/xpa3.shtm

You can use this combo now with the CM7's. They will LOVE the current delivery of the XPA-3.

Later on, when you build out your HT, you simply add the center and surround speakers. Run the front three speaker off the XPA-3, and the rears off the 3311.

If you really want to kick it up later, add the center speaker and surrounds. Then add a stereo amp like the XPA-2. Run the CM7's off the XPA-2, and the center/surrounds off the XPA-3. A very nice setup. This is the way I have my HT. A stereo amp on the mains, and a multi-channel for the rest. Works very well. Everyone gets all the current they want.


You can also consider Emotiva for a pre-amp as well. Eliminate the receiver, and go separates.


Hope this helps.

Thank you again for your answer ! The idea with the Emotiva is very good!! I Think first I will try to make a nice deal with the AVR3311, now if that isn't possible then I will go for the AVR3312 and see how everything sounds. Meanwhile I'll have to contact Emotiva for a price for international shipping ( I live in the Netherlands) and hope for a good price. 700USD is around €550,- so that is a pretty nice price! The AVR 3312 sells for around €800,- so indeed, with the Emotiva and the AVR 3312 i'll have a great setup for around €1400,- (around $1800,-).

Now concerning the connections and settings. The pre-outs will be used then from the AVR3311 to the Emotiva. Is it necessary to set some parameters in the AVR to use the pre-out? Or is it some sort of auto-detect?

Oh; before i forget: The XPA2 is more expensive then the XPA-3, now its very logic that the XPA-2 has more power and better performance then the XPA-3, but is it maybe better to use the XPA-2 for the front speakers, and later when I want to upgrade to HT, buy the XPA-3 and use it for surround & center? I can imagine that the XPA-2 will sound better for a stereo setup (which i have now) then the XPA-3 and not use 1 channel until I get HT.

[htsteve]

Now concerning the connections and settings. The pre-outs will be used then from the AVR3311 to the Emotiva. Is it necessary to set some parameters in the AVR to use the pre-out? Or is it some sort of auto-detect?

Oh; before i forget: The XPA2 is more expensive then the XPA-3, now its very logic that the XPA-2 has more power and better performance then the XPA-3, but is it maybe better to use the XPA-2 for the front speakers, and later when I want to upgrade to HT, buy the XPA-3 and use it for surround & center? I can imagine that the XPA-2 will sound better for a stereo setup (which i have now) then the XPA-3 and not use 1 channel until I get HT.

Yes, you would send the signal from the 311 to the amp. It's auto detect. I've never had to set up anything in the pre-amp or receiver to make this work. Nice and simple.

Yes, the XPA-2 would be the ideal companion to the 3311/12 and the CM7's. The CM7's would be totally sweet with the XPA-2. And as you say, later on for HT, you get another amp for the rest of the speakers. This is a good plan.


Hope this helps.

[Black Tang]

I've started a new thread to get your valuable opinion.

[Skyblue]

So I have the new 800 diamonds. Theyre great and very transparent. I drive them with some 600w monos diy icepower (asx 250 modules) and an ssp 800 for pre. It sounds great, but .. not as involving as my head fi gear.

Now, icepower is known to be somewhat clinical, and I suppose the combination with b&w maybe too flat. Certainly when I had 802s with cambridge 740A they sounded more alive.

So the question is. Which way to go for a little more swing in the strings and punch in the base, while keeping the transparency. I thought of ayre mx-r. Classe m600's, or even Bryston 4B sst2.

I wouldn't mind if the recommendations were cheap

[wettou]

So I have the new 800 diamonds. Theyre great and very transparent. I drive them with some 600w monos diy icepower (asx 250 modules) and an ssp 800 for pre. It sounds great, but .. not as involving as my head fi gear. So the question is. Which way to go for a little more swing in the strings and punch in the base, while keeping the transparency. I thought of ayre mx-r. Classe m600's, or even Bryston 4B sst2. I wouldn't mind if the recommendations were cheap

CA-M600 are amazing, the only issue is the fan in a two channel if you sit close to your speakers and amps.

I would also evaluate BAT, Electrocompaniet and Pass Labs :T

[Skyblue]

CA-M600 are amazing, the only issue is the fan in a two channel if you sit close to your speakers and amps.

I have heard them a couple of times. Very nice, but.. not as involving as my headgear... :/ That being said, IMO gear sounds better in my home than in the dealer room. Dunno why, but this is based on several trials.

I would also evaluate BAT, Electrocompaniet and Pass Labs :T

I heard good things about all 3. However, as the magic in my headgear is my ayre dac, I tend to think ayre monos might be the way to go. However, I am unsure as to whether they have any synergy with the 800's. Has anyone tried?

[Greg Gale]

Classe's CA2300 sounds amazing with the new 802Di...

I owned the original N802 for 12 years and most recently was driving them with Classe's Delta CA2200 which sounded great. I traded in my N802's for the new 802 Diamonds and the step up in sound quality was dramatic.

I decided to upgrade to the new Classe CA2300 which is rated at 300 watts per channel versus 200 and I was shocked at the difference in sound quality between the two generations. The sound was smoother, faster, tighter and more dynamic then before.

The fan is wisper quiet and I have my amplifier located at ear level in a cabinet only 8 feet from my listening position and the only time I can hear the fan (which is very faint at best) is after a long cranking session where the fan is running at a higher speed until the amplifer cools down. During listening sessions at normal volume the fan is running at its lowest speed and I have to put my ear up to the fan duct to hear it.

I highly recommend this amplifer. JA tested the CT and CA 600 monoblocks which essentially use the same identical circuitry and he said "these were the best amplifers he has heard in his system" and now uses them as a reference.

[ejr1953]

I've been using NAD equipment for many years and have been very happy with the performance. I currently have the M3 (180 wpc integrated amp), M4 (tuner) and M5 (CD/SACD unit, absolutely great unit!), driving a pair of CM5's in the living room and 685's in the dining room. The amp sounds really effortless, at all volume levels. When I upgraded to all Audioquest cabling, the results were really astounding!

I'm hoping to update to one of the 800 Diamond series speakers (805 or 804) in the near future and my dealer gives the NAD M3 "two thumbs up" driving any of the high-end B&Ws.

[stefbel]

Hello,
Happy to see your forum. I own a pair of N805 series and I got few question. I drive it since many year with an Onkyo 900e amp which is powerful but not musically efficient...
The whole sound is good but lack of power, details and space between instruments (sorry for my English, hope it's clear for you). In few terms, I feel it needs more power, more current to sing the right sound.
I'm on the way to buy an anthem 235 int amp, I tested it and the value added exists clearly. It corresponds to my maximum budget which is 1400 euros.

Two questions, what amp at this budget level ?
Is Bi-wire a good thing for these speakers ?

Regards to all,

M

[mb225]

Hamie, i was in same boat as u. I auditioned McIntosh since i had same idea.. Three MC501 and one MC402. I even got McIntosh C2300 preamp, with itension to add amps. Thanks to my dealer i got a chance to listen MC501 at home and also at their showroom. I have the same impresion. The sound is coloured and not real. At first sweet, but after some time not impressive.. I explaing like this. Imagine person that is very kind, very gentle but that much gentle and kind that after sime time start to make u nervous

At the end i tried Krell FPB-300C which is amazing match with my 803s (i prefer the sound compared to MC501 at my setup). McIntosh is smooth , but rounded and not neutral. Krell is very neutral, very real.. If u prefer live type of sound try Krell. Also i sold C2300 and as preamp im using Benchmark DAC1 Pre which is also amazing peace of hardware.. Hope that i helped u

Greetings

Darko

Hi Darko,

I'm very curious since you have owned or tried Rotel, Mcintosh and Krell amps. I've been thinking of upgrading my Rotel amp/pre that is driving my 803s. I've always been disappointed with the bass and punch of my setup. I also find that the current setup is very fatiguing. I can only listen for about 30-40 mins at a time. I was thinking of buying Mcintosh since a lot of people say it's so smooth and less fatiguing.

So my question is: how did you find the bass on the MC vs. Rotel? I know a lot of people say Mcintosh bass is sloppy? Did the Mcintosh 501s have a nice punch?

[cossie0]

Hi i am in the UK and have just bought some 802Diamonds. At the moment I have them hooked up to 2 channels from my cinema room amplifier which is a 6 channel 400wpc ABamp and a long cable run.

The hookup is temporary until I find a suitable amp(s).

I have a head full of gear options a lot of which I have not heard yet.

I have seen a McIntosh MA6900 for sale used but I am not sure it has the power to do them justice at 200wpc although I see a lot of people on here use this make of amp.

Another option is a muscle Musical Fidelity amp (Nuvista 300, KW500 or 550).
I have owned a few MF amps in the past and have always liked them

I am also going to have a demo of a Classe CP800 preamp and he also has a 2300 integrated amp as demo but will that amp have enough power to do them justice.
The Classe monoblocks are expensive and are they worth it over the 2300 especially as they are still only 300wpc.

Any advice would be more than welcome.

thanks
Darren

[htsteve]

Darren,

I think any of those amps mentioned will be quite a nice improvement over the current amp.

I had an MC205 on my 802D's and it sounded quite wonderful. So I know that 200 watts from Mac will work well.

However, with 802D's, the more current, the better. I upgraded to an MC252 stereo amp. Definite improvement, especially in bass and soundstage. Later I upgraded to my current MC402 on the 802D's. Awesome. Everything good about the MC252 was increased. A great combo.


If you budget allows, consider some higher powered amps.


Hope this helps.

[cossie0]

Thanks for that Steve,

McIntosh is rare in the UK but I have come across a used MC402 through a friend of a friend of a friend so have sent an email to the guy so hopefully it is still available.

What preamp do you use with your 402 please

[htsteve]

Darren,

Until recently I had the MX-120 pre-amp. I upgraded to the MX-121 earlier this year. It is wonderful for HT (I have a dedicated HT room iin my basement).
And the 2 channel is quite good. I listen to alot more 2 channel since I went to the Mac electronics.

I hope the 402 is still available. An incredible amp. And it runs cool. I can run it for hours, under load, and it doesn't break a sweat. Tons of headroom, and very, very quiet.


Hope this helps.

[cossie0]

Hi Steve unfortunately it is sold so I am going to push the boat out and get the CP800 and CAM600 monoblocks. Its more than I was going to spend but I figure you only live once.

cheers

[htsteve]

Darren,

That is some excellent electronics!


Post pics and your impressions.

[mpauline]

I just sold my Rotel 1095 and I am looking for opinions for an amp to replace it. I have 803 Diamonds and a HTM2 Diamond as my front sound stage. I was thinking that I should go for a three channel amp and just let my Anthem receiver power the rears and back speakers. Anyone have any suggestions like Classe or McIntosh or do you think that I should stick with a five channel amp and buy a better stereo amp? I listen to music only 20% and the other 80% is home theater.

[Rod#S]

Good three channel amps would be:

Bryston 6B-SST Squared
Classe doesn't currently have a 3 channel amp
McIntosh MC303
Parasound A 31
Mark Levinson No533H
Krell 403e

Do you have any plans of upgrading your 803 Diamonds to a larger speaker down the road? (i.e. 802 or 800 as an example) The reason I ask is if you do you may want either a dedicated stereo amp for those or dual monos so that's something to keep in mind now.

You mention using your reciever as an option to continue to power the rears and backs so by that I'm taking it you have a 7.1 setup? There aren't a lot of 7 channel amps out there so you would most likely end up purchasing a 5 channel amp and a stereo amp as that seems to be the most common way to amplify a 7.1 setup. I choose the less popular choice of a 3 channel amp and 2 stereo amps as 7 monos was prohibitively expensive and 3 amps was a nice compromise.

Geting back to your reciever, if it's like 200 watts per channel and can actually output that level all channels driven it should do just fine for your 4 surround speakers. What are your surround speakers? If they are in-wall or in-ceiling you probably don't need as much power as having say floor standers for the sides and rears.

[mpauline]

Thanks Rod for the suggestions. I noticed that Classe had a three channel amp CA-3200 in the past. There is one on Audiogon for $4000.

I will not be upgrading my speakers as I auditioned 802 Di's when I purchased these and I was happy with the 803 Di's. My receiver only has 100W's per channel but I didn't really think it would make any difference given that it is just the surrounds. I guess I could also buy another 5 channel amp but was trying to keep it simple. The surrounds are old Mirage 895i's floorstanding.

I could still cancel my deal on the 1095 sale but hate to do that to someone when I already made a verbal commitment. I also have a Rotel 1080 and that was how I was getting the 7 channels. I have the desire to bring out more of the potential of my speakers and figured that buying a better three channel amp would do that.

The McIntosh MC303 is about $8000 out the door here in Alberta. If I buy the Classe three channel I would have to buy it without ever listening to it which is an issue.

[Rod#S]

Ah so you have a sale for the Rotel, yeah that kind of puts you in the position to follow through I guess. I can understand the delimmea as I'm sure the receiver does a good job powering the Mirage 895 speakers. Another 3 channel amp I thought about was the Anthem MCA30 which should be a lot cheaper than the others. I used to use a MCA50, I actually still have it boxed up and it is a really good 5 channel amp and the 30 was just the 3 channel version of that amp.

Tricky call on the Classe CA-3200 with not being able to hear it.

[mpauline]

Shipped out the Rotel 1095 today so need to buy a three channel or another 5 channel amp. Is a three channel amp better than a five channel for sound quality or does it really only make a difference when one goes to monoblocks?

[mjb]

Is a three channel amp better than a five channel for sound quality or does it really only make a difference when one goes to monoblocks?

Probably not. Its usually a limitation of the power-supply: monoblocks don't share their power-supply, whereas an amp with more channels might, depending upon the design.

[mpauline]

Anyone using Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks with their 800 series B&W's? Opinions? Thinking of that option now.

[stuofsci02]

Anyone using Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks with their 800 series B&W's? Opinions? Thinking of that option now.

I was going to suggest an amp from Emotiva....

I have a number of their products including amps (not the XPA-1), preamp and subwoofer.. I have found that their products punch way above the price...

I am using a $399 USP-1 pre-amp with my 801D... ops:

Even if the Emotiva is just temporary until you figure out what you want to do, they tend to resale well in Canada.

Cheers

[wettou]

Anyone using Emotiva XPA-1 monoblocks with their 800 series B&W's? Opinions? Thinking of that option now.

I drive mine with Classé CA-M600 a match made in heaven

[stuofsci02]

I drive mine with Classé CA-M600 a match made in heaven

Yes.. And not very expensive either

[wettou]

Yes.. And not very expensive either

That is why I drive a cheap car, I set my priority around Audio :B

[stuofsci02]

That is why I drive a cheap car, I set my priority around Audio :B

Yes... Me to.. :cry:

[Rod#S]

Hell, I don't even have a car, I just can't stop buying equipment for long enough to squeeze a car in

[leo2498]

Yes... Me to.. :cry:

jajaja
well I have a car that cost me about 30000 usd and every day it stays parked in my garage and in the other hand I'm using my audio system every day a least 2 hours, I wondering if I need to change my priority to put my money only in my audio system :roll: but how tell to my wife this! jajaja.

[mpauline]

Just saw a Bryston 7BSST2 for sale relatively close to me. Would there be a huge difference in left/right panning scenes if I used a 7BSST2 for my mains and my old Rotel 1080 for my HTM2Di?

[Rod#S]

One day I would love to be able to put those with my 802's.

What is the power rating of the 1080, is it 200 watts? The 7B's are spec'ed at 600 but often measure beyond that if you check in their spec sheets so that's quite a jump in power from 200 to 600+. I'm not sure about panning but at low to moderate volumes I would suspect you would notice more authority and overall control.

[mpauline]

The Rotel is 250. Also there is a 4BSST for sale very close which would be an improvement over the Rotel which is currently driving my mains. So hard to decide as I would really like to provide my 803Di's some good amplification but worry about the panning across the front if I don't buy three monoblocks which I cannot afford or a three channel amp which is hard to find. Decisions, decisions, this home theater business is so complicated :-)

But in the end is a better amp more important to improve the performance of my speakers or a better pre/pro?

[wettou]

jajaja well I have a car that cost me about 30000 usd and every day it stays parked in my garage and in the other hand I'm using my audio system every day a least 2 hours, I wondering if I need to change my priority to put my money only in my audio system :roll: but how tell to my wife this! jajaja.

My car is 14 years old and I intend to keep it for an other six years then I will donate it to charity :T

Audio is where it's at ;x(

[stuofsci02]

The Rotel is 250. Also there is a 4BSST for sale very close which would be an improvement over the Rotel which is currently driving my mains. So hard to decide as I would really like to provide my 803Di's some good amplification but worry about the panning across the front if I don't buy three monoblocks which I cannot afford or a three channel amp which is hard to find. Decisions, decisions, this home theater business is so complicated :-)

But in the end is a better amp more important to improve the performance of my speakers or a better pre/pro?

For me a better preamp is where it's at, especially for music listening. To be honest, if you have an amp that can nicely handle the speaker load, spending more $$$ on the amp won't necessarily provide additional benefits.

For 803Di the min impedance is low at 3 ohms so I would look for an amp that is rated into a 2 ohm load. Once you have this, big power is not really required.

People often go with a big power amp, not because they need massive power, but rather they need the amp to not flop on its face into 3 ohms. But if you start with an amp that is stable at 3 ohms (or 2 ohms) then you don't need to compensate with power.

[leo2498]

For me a better preamp is where it's at, especially for music listening. To be honest, if you have an amp that can nicely handle the speaker load, spending more $$$ on the amp won't necessarily provide additional benefits.

For 803Di the min impedance is low at 3 ohms so I would look for an amp that is rated into a 2 ohm load. Once you have this, big power is not really required.

People often go with a big power amp, not because they need massive power, but rather they need the amp to not flop on its face into 3 ohms. But if you start with an amp that is stable at 3 ohms (or 2 ohms) then you don't need to compensate with power.

stuofsci02 have a very good point, the preamp is a better option for improvement your sound, with the amp you will get different sound (thats no mean better) but with a good preamp or SSP you will note a better presentation of your music. personally I'm saving to get my new preamp.

[Rod#S]

I think I would probably go with the preamp/SSP/receiver as well especially if you feel your current one is lacking features you want to have. That alone makes it worthwhile and that would be in addition to better audible performance.