Which electronics should I get with my B&W speakers?

[number95]

Thank you Briz Vegas. It is always good to talk to or discuss with someone who is experienced so that knows what he says. I drive my 800s with Ref-3 preamp and Ref-610T combos. I have not yet faced with a problem of control or lack of authority over 800s even at extremely high decibel levels. 610T's transformer is something to be seen ;x( . So not all tubes are similar and so all SS amps are similar. I am sure I can have more grip and attack with a 600w SS which I also tried some Krell amps, but then it is a compromise of personal listening attributes like soundstage, inner details, instrument seperation, high frequency definition, bass decay etc. There are two downsides for 610Ts though. First is its cost (it is more than 2 times of a 800 pair) as well as tube replacement (consider for each 2500-3000 hours, replacing 19 match pair of 6550 ! :M ops: ), second is its heat (if you live in a bit warm climate, seperate air conditioning becames necessary for long listenings, one good thing is you dont need heaters for the listening room in winters! :lol: :E :rofl: )

[wettou]

Well may I learn which tube amplifiers you have tried on or listened to with 800? And what is the argument of tube distortion? Before I answer fully I wonder your experiences with tubes. But I can say most probably you have never heard 800s with a Ref series amps from Audio Research, especially 610Ts. Your comment is premature.

What ever enjoy your tubes I will stay with my Class A :B

[reddogpt]

I have older Classè amps...preamp DR-5 and 2 bridged DR-8's with my B&W 801's. Obviously, I think they sound super. :-)

The first time I heard Classè was ages ago at a CES show in the B&W room. They were described as "giant killers" and a "poor man's Krell". Now of course they are a part of the B&W group. Gee, if the people that make the speakers like them...

I have heard many fantastic B&W systems powered with Krell and Mark Levinson. I would have to guess any of the other high end options (Halcro, Pass, Ayre, etc.) would sound amazing as well.

[wettou]

Try them with the CAM-400's and you'll tell a different story. More power does open these speakers up, particularly at lower volumes. It's like night and day with the CAM-350's now powering my 803D's.

Classé CA-M400 love the look hate the price Emotiva XAP-1 love the price hate the look

[peter clarke]

Here' the result of an interesting experiment usually running VTL 7.5/S-400 with my 800D's added parasound JC-1's to low frequency in passive bi-amp mode, the result is so far remarkable with well produced CD, XRCD, SACD's the tubes on mid/hi still perfect and now 'more' bottom end extension and snap on lo frequencies, system sounds more 'energized'

[gross30]

Kya Dawn, I think that the salesman is somewhat out to lunch and yes he is blowing hot air at you. #1) Classe does not suck, very well built and sounding product. #2) Mcintosh is not slow, believe me when I say my 1201 mono's and N800's are by no means slow in any manner. It will give you more than you need for speed and sound quality. I had Classe mono's prior to the big Mac's, and they were no slouch and beautiful sounding amps. As for Goldmund, I have not demo'ed any of their products but the Swiss are known for very good gear. (Dartzeel,Goldmund) and very pricey. Jeff Rowland has been known for a lot of years as some of the best sounding amps around. You have to be the one to decide what you like, don't fall into the salesman's web so to speak. I have done that in the past and now, instead of being so eager to buy something, I just take the time to really research and LISTEN to the gear in as many ways as possible. Good luck and enjoy the shopping !!!! :T

[ASilva]

Kya Dawn: That salesman is defenitily blowing hot air at you(he's full of it).Gross30 already mention about Classé and McIntosh Amps and I completly agree with his views. About Goldmund I personally don't like the sound of this electronics and IMHO they're over priced, I would avoid it.

Gross30: Just a little repair: Dartzeel and Goldmund are Swiss brands not Sweedish! :T

[gross30]

Asilva, I stand corrected, Swiss it is....thanks........... :T

[KyaDawn]

Thanks gross30 and ASilva! Yes, I figured the sales guy was full of it and was thinking only of what he'd make the most on with the commission. :roll:

[1oldguy]

Well my amp search is over.I have 5 Bryston Amps about to be made for me.One for each speaker.I went with the 7B SST Squared.And I also ordered the Bryston BCD-1 CD player.So now that part of my search is over I guess it's time to start digging into the Brains of this new beast I'm building.

[pixeljedi]

More power for the 683s

Hi All,

I have a pair of 683s and am in the market to get a new 2-channel amp, but am wondering how high of power I can put into these without damaging them. B&W recommends 200W into 8Ω, but can I go higher than this with a quality amp? If so, how high (relatively safely)? I'm thinking of going with a McIntosh at >=300Wx2.

The reason being, I'm currently running them out of a Rotel 1560 at 100W a channel and they sound kinda underpowered, like the mid & bass drivers aren't getting enough juice. I've tried different crossover settings as well as toggling them between small and large - nada.

Thanks in advance for the advice,
Thor

[htsteve]

pixeljedi,

I would tend to agree that the 683 cold use a bit more power, or actually current. The better the current, the better control of the drivers it will have.
More powerful amps have more watts but they also deliver more current. Especially with dedicated stereo amps. A 2 channel amp doesn't have to 'share' with anyone.

As I have McIntosh amps, I can certainly agree with your decision to look at them. I have the MC252 ('only' 250 watts, but loads of current) driving 802D's. Any Mac amp 200 watts or better will totally control the 683's. Even some of the 'smaller' Mac amps at 100 to 150 watts will work. I know someone who is driving 703's with a 100 watt Mac amp, and it sounds very good.

Mac amps are definitely more expensive, but are very, very good. For your 683's you could do a Rotel 1080 amp at 200 wpc. I had a 1080 driving N804's at one point and it was a very nice combo. Again, the 1080 would handle the 683's nicely.


Hope this helps.

[pixeljedi]

Thanks hsteve, that helped a great deal.

I thought about a 1080, but just read over in club rotel about someone experiencing overheating with this combo.

So I'm gathering it's safe to exceed B&W's recommended power then? I had a line on a deal for a Mac @ 2x400W awhile back, but passed it up because it was double what B&W recommended for these 683s.

Cheers,
Thor

[mjb]

I thought about a 1080, but just read over in club rotel about someone experiencing overheating with this combo.

The RB-1080 was (is) one of Rotels most popular amps, don't diss it just because you hear of one with a problem.

[artv4]

The RB-1080 was (is) one of Rotels most popular amps, don't diss it just because you hear of one with a problem.

i agree

[pixeljedi]

The RB-1080 was (is) one of Rotels most popular amps, don't diss it just because you hear of one with a problem.

I wasn't dissing it.

[htsteve]

pixeljedi,

It's much more dangerous to your speakers to underpower them than overpower them. Good quality amps like Rotel and Mac have excellent power supplies and can deliver power quite well.

So, it's not an issue of 'too much good power'. If you get a 200 wpc or better amp, especially one like a Mac, you will also be able to upgrade speakers later and most likely not need to worry about your amp. Unless you get something monstrous like an 800D.


BTW, I did not have any overheating issues with my 1080. It does get pretty warm, so you'll need some decent ventilation around it.

Either a 1080 or a Mac will be a very good upgrade. From a long term solution view, getting a Mac will really 'lock down' one big part of your system.

The best thing to do is try to demo some models.


Hope this helps.

[pixeljedi]

Thank you so much htsteve!

That's great info - exactly what I needed to know. I'll go demo some Mac's this weekend.

Cheers and thanks!
Thor

[wettou]

Well my amp search is over.I have 5 Bryston Amps about to be made for me.One for each speaker.I went with the 7B SST Squared.And I also ordered the Bryston BCD-1 CD player.So now that part of my search is over I guess it's time to start digging into the Brains of this new beast I'm building.

Why Bryston instead of Classé?

[pixeljedi]

New Mac

I ended up picking up a McIntosh MC252 to power the 683s (thanks again for the advice htsteve!). The 683s are completely different animals now. They actually produce phenomenal bass and midrange - and the highs are so much more precise. What a fantastic difference!!!

I've spent the last week having 2-channel listening sessions and every time it's managed to put a huge smile on my face. The lights go off, the music begins, the walls disappear and I'm right there in the middle of beautiful sound stage. I am very happy with this amp/speaker combo. I don't think I'll use my surrounds for music anymore.

If anyone's in the market for a new amp to drive their 683s, give the Mac a listen - it's amazing. :T

[gross30]

Congrats on the Mac pixeljedi, you will not be disappointed. Lots of years of great listening there.

[htsteve]

pixeljedi,

Outstanding choice. That is an excellent amp. I'm not surprised at all by your reaction.

I have a 252 powering 802D's, so you will have plenty of upgrade path on speakers with that amp.


Enjoy!

[Marco Lisi]

Hi all

On our latest showweekend (audiovideo2day antwerp) one dealer (New Music/Brussels) provided a real showcase with the mighty 800D.

How about this: powering each speaker (bi-amp) with two (2) !!! Pass X600.5 mono's...



One pair of amplifiers took place in my living room now. As organiser of the show I granted permition to use my newly arrived Pass blocks to power the low frequencies for this showcase.

Now, they are breaking in and for the first time my 800D's can produce real music. Now I realise how powerhungry those beasts really are...

Take care

:T

[reddogpt]

Hokey smokes that's a great set-up!

[sikoniko]

Hi all

On our latest showweekend (audiovideo2day antwerp) one dealer (New Music/Brussels) provided a real showcase with the mighty 800D.

How about this: powering each speaker (bi-amp) with two (2) !!! Pass X600.5 mono's...



One pair of amplifiers took place in my living room now. As organiser of the show I granted permition to use my newly arrived Pass blocks to power the low frequencies for this showcase.

Now, they are breaking in and for the first time my 800D's can produce real music. Now I realise how powerhungry those beasts really are...

Take care

:T

I agree with 800D's using every bit of power it can. I know there are a lot of people doubtful on passive bi-amping, but I heard a huge difference on a pair of 800D's when I was experimenting at a dealership one day. I don't believe there is anything such as too much power when it comes to the 800D's.

[1oldguy]

Why Bryston instead of Classé?

Update......The Kuro have gone back.Soon to be moving.Not sure what I will do with all that new gear I have.

As for the reason I went with Bryston is;
(1) System synergy....The same amp powering the entire system should at least in Theory have some benefits.
(2) Cost.....If i went with 5 Cam 400's the price including tax would be very close to and extra $10,000.00
(3) Product redesign,The power curve of the amp now starts much sooner so you can listen at much lover sound levels and miss non of the details in the music.
(4)I Handel's for moving them,not getting any younger.
(5)Weight 50 pounds as apposed to 90 plus.
(6)20 year Warranty
(7)Great service
(8)I like the no nonsense zero frills look of the amps
(9)At the end of the day I had to buy before I try so it was a leap of faith in either direction.

[peter clarke]

B&W 800D passive bi-amp

This works for me bass extension and depth on mids/hi, VTL S-400 on the top and parasound JC-1 on the lo end

[Freddie40]

Besides 1oldguy there is very little mention of Bryston gear. Do people here not like Bryston?

Dave

[JargonGR]

I use a Bryston 14BSST to power an HTM1D and it blends fine with two Electrocompaniet NEMOs I use for my 800Ds.

However, although the AW600 (NEMOs) are powerful beasts with 1X600W@8Ohm and 1X1200Watt@4Ohm I feel that the 800Ds are even more greedy!

I managed to clip the NEMOs when I pumped up the volume at about reference level on an Onkyo 905 (the dial was at 0db) and my SPL was showing about 110db with a peak of 116db.

Now being serious in no way am I listening at such levels and I mostly enjoy music at about 96db but hell I was wondering where those babies can take me.


Is it possible to avoid any clipping even at such levels but using TWO amps per speaker? I mean would 4X Nemos bi-amping the 800Ds be more powerful?

[SoCalCM]

Luxman L550AII integrated amp. 20 wpc. Class A.

I borrowed this integrated from the local dealer because I wanted something to do a better job with some 804S speakers than the Arcam Solo. It was dazzling, getting sound that I did not know the 804S capable of, I used to think of the 804S as a little bass challenged -- not anymore. So I tried it with my main speakers, my 4 year old 802Ds. The great 802D sound was all there -- I would not have expected that.

[1oldguy]

Well I still haven't heard either the Bryston amps or the B&W speakers yet.Still in boxes as of yet.LOl 176 pound papper weights.

[Freddie40]

Well I still haven't heard either the Bryston amps or the B&W speakers yet.Still in boxes as of yet.LOl 176 pound papper weights.

Bummer. The Bryston amps are amazing

Dave

[pushtiulk]

what do you think about a pair of 802D powered by a pair of rotel rb-1091 (1 rb-1091 for 1 802D)?

[htsteve]

what do you think about a pair of 802D powered by a pair of rotel rb-1091 (1 rb-1091 for 1 802D)?

pushtiulk,

Do a search here in the B&W forum. I know of someone who recently (as in the last couple of months) obtained that combo. As I recall, he was quite happy with the performance.

The 1091 and 1092 have lot's of current. They will drive the 802D's quite well.


Hope this helps.

[mjb]

what do you think about a pair of 802D powered by a pair of rotel rb-1091 (1 rb-1091 for 1 802D)?

A lot of people demo this combo, but in my opinion (FWIW) the newer modules used in the 15 series much sound better. You might like to audition a 1572 or 1575. I moved from a 1092 to a 1575 (I have a pair of 802d'), and the 1575 is much more subtle.

[51st8]

Hi All,

I'm new here.
i own 685 speakers. i would like to upgrade them to CM7 or CM9. and i need an advise what a/v receiver going to be enough. i wonder if Harman Kardon AVR 355 is ok?
and another question, what cables and plugs.

many thanks
chris

[BWLover]

Harmon Kardon recievers IMO are junk. Get a rotel reciever at least if you have b&w speakers

[51st8]

what model would you recommend form rotel range? and what cables

cheers

[mjb]

How about a 1570 + 1575 combo??
Cables: anything half decent.

[51st8]

MJB
half decent?
for example QED starts prices form £4.50 pm or QED GENESIS SILVER SPIRAL SPEAKER CABLE and up to £500 for some flat ones pm
Can you recommend exact make and model so i can look and read?
what about: Nordost 2 Flat Loudspeaker Cable at http://www.hifigear.co.uk/site/scrip...roduct_id=1954
thanks
chris

[mjb]

Chris, I'm not a cable expert, but I think one can distinguish the extremes without too much trouble - I won't be paying 500 quid for an interconnect cable either. Choose your own price point.

[WelshOne]

Hi MJB,

A lot of people demo this combo, but in my opinion (FWIW) the newer modules used in the 15 series much sound better. You might like to audition a 1572 or 1575. I moved from a 1092 to a 1575 (I have a pair of 802d'), and the 1575 is much more subtle.

I have the 1570/1575 running 803D, HTM2D and 805S. I hav experienced frequent clipping at approx level 85 on the processor. To give you an idea, the 75db ref level is set at 82, crossover for all speakers at 80hz to sub. Admittedly this volume level is extremely loud, but not ear shattering, it was just during some 'showy off moments' :W . Have you experienced any clipping issues with the even more demanding 802D's?

It may just be that im asking to much of the amp with such hefty speakers and dynamic moments of some film scenes. I am considering a 1572 to biamp the mains bass drivers now as a result? Any opinions on this upgrade really appreciated!

If I dont reply immediately its because im going away in a few hours for a weeks holiday!

The sound is incredible BTW! :E

Cheers

David.

[51st8]

if i would stick with Rotel RSX155x which one 1550 or 1560 going to be better. are they good enough for CM9? can i expect any lack of power and purity?
to be honest i cannot afford pre amp and amp

many thanks
chris

[BWLover]

the 1550 is class A/B and the 1560 is class D. I had a RSX-1058 with 683's and it was pretty good. I never ended up buying the center and rears. I became to involved in 2 channel and went with a pre amp and 2 ch amp. I would probably go with the 1560. Rotel seems to really be in favor of the class D stuff in the 15 series so it must be pretty damn good. You definitly wont have to worry about over heating with class D. as for cables i've herd that tara labs makes a good bang for buck cable i.e. you could pay $500 at tara labs or $1000 somewhere else and not hear a difference. There going to be my cable of choice. But watch out on cable topics as they get out of hand and the moderators shut down the thread. also, just because you can afford a pre/amp set up doesnt mean the rcvr isnt going to be stellar. Rotel makes really good products thru out the entire range.

[51st8]

BWLover
Thanks a lot for your advise.
i have another question. i would like to soundproof the walls. i dont mean like in a studio. i just want to cut the sound going through the walls as much as i can.
if so, what material i should use. does it affect sound, sound quality, purity?

many thanks
chris