Will my Amp do justice to some 802D's

[mtbmarkymark]

Hi everyone, Some advise please
Its time to upgrade my Kef speakers
My speaker listening shortlist is down to PMC EB1, Focal 1037Be & 802D's
My main query is my current amp. I've got the baby Krell ( KAV400i ) which i like. Its rated at 200W into 8 ohms. Will it have enough power / quality to do justice to the 802D's or should i be looking at an amp upgrade aswell.
If so some recommendations ( perhaps second hand ) would be welcome
Thanks Mark

[Pedro]

To me it's not a good deal.

They will not be enough to get all the bass output from the 802D. To these speakers, The Evolution Combo in Krell is the best deal. I mean, EVO 222, EVO 505, and EVO 400 monoblocks or even the EVO 402 (2x400).

[cug]

Most of the people will tell you that the Krell is not powerful enough for the 802D. Indeed the 802D presents a very tough load for the amplifier, but nevertheless - the KAV 400 brings 200WPC into 8 and 400WPC into 4 Ohm - as long as it stays stable down to a VERY low impedance, it shouldn't be a problem. There is not enough information on the Krell page to answer that question right away, maybe someone knows.

The 802D is the hardest to drive speaker in the B&W line, because it drops down to 1.4 Ohm in the bass range. So, if you can answer that your Krell is stable for that impedance - just try it.

[hifiguymi]

The best pair of B&W speakers I had on the KAV-400xi was a pair of 803D's and it wasn't that great. The bass was not very tight, it was fatiguing. I don't have any experience with the other speakers you listed so I'm not sure about them. If you plan on upgrading the amp soon that is different, but if the long term plan is to stick with the KAV-400xi the 802D is too much speaker.

Eric

[htsteve]

Dedicated Amps for 802D's

mtbmarkymark,

I'd also be a bit concerned using an integrated (even one as good as the 400i) to drive 802D's. I have 802D's and they do love power. I currently drive my 802D's with 200 watts, but it's in the form of a dedicated McIntosh 5 channel amp. In two channel mode, it is outstanding. For my size room, this has worked quite well. For the long run, I would look at dedicated MAC's, Krell or Classe amps for speakers of this quality. Audiogon has these brands available in dedicated amps.


Hope this helps.

[Pedro]

The 802D is the hardest to drive speaker in the B&W line, because it drops down to 1.4 Ohm in the bass range. So, if you can answer that your Krell is stable for that impedance - just try it.

Perfect.

Nowadays some friend have plugged his N803 (old nautilus series) with the KAV400xi. He liked the song, dont finding bright or forward, but noticed the lack of bass. He currently use Mccormack DNA1 with a Yamaha receiver (as preamp), and this combination gets his N803 with more tight bass, but with a more bright and didnt refined sound at top end.

So about your comment, agree 100%. The 802D will down below 2ohms and the N803 below 3 ohms. And a power to output all the bass they can give, MUST be huge enough to work with 2 ohms like the big Evolution or Class A Krells, wich the 400xi dont do well. In my opinion for sure, :T

[cug]

So about your comment, agree 100%. The 802D will down below 2ohms and the N803 below 3 ohms. And a power to output all the bass they can give, MUST be huge enough to work with 2 ohms like the big Evolution or Class A Krells, wich the 400xi dont do well. In my opinion for sure, :T

I don't agree to that until I have seen how the Krell behaves with loads below 2 Ohm. I don't know that, so I'd say it's worth a test with realistic listening levels (and a little bit above to be safe).

My point still is: if the Krell can deliver power below 2 Ohm, it might not be any different than a huge power amp at normal listening volume.

[Briz vegas]

I have only heard the 300R on my 804s. Easier load but even this speaker has alot more to give than the Krell can deliver. I am talking about quality and nuiance rather than raw power.

Sometimes I think the guys on this forum are a little too focused on grunt over finesse.

[cug]

Sometimes I think the guys on this forum are a little too focused on grunt over finesse.

As everywhere: some are, others aren't. Probably. Perhaps. Or so.

[scanido]

I have only heard the 300R on my 804s. Easier load but even this speaker has alot more to give than the Krell can deliver. I am talking about quality and nuiance rather than raw power.

Sometimes I think the guys on this forum are a little too focused on grunt over finesse.

Not here, if that was the case I would have opted for the grunt of RB-1092's with 500w a side over the finesse of a McIntosh MC205.

[Pedro]

humm and the finesse+grunt is a lot expensive, unfortunelly

[cug]

Not here, if that was the case I would have opted for the grunt of RB-1092's with 500w a side over the finesse of a McIntosh MC205.

In my opinion, and please understand that correctly, I don't want to offend you or anyone here, with what I'm saying.

But I think the talk about finer or nicer or better sounding amps or more finesse or whatever is marketing bullshit for people who love buying new equipment instead of loving the music itself. My personal opinion. Nothing else.

I know that there are differences, but for me they only come from inability to drive a given speaker (e.g. 802D) or non-linear frequency reponse. That's it. Nothing else.

Again: please understand that I accept any other opinion on that, you might think different, you might even hear different - I just don't believe it ... If you know, that it is different, take the amplifier challenge:

http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

[mtbmarkymark]

Thanks for the input guys. You seem to be agreeing KAV400i may be a bit lacking in its performance into the difficult load the 802D's present.

So to refine the question

1) Is there an integrated amp with what it takes or do i have to go pre-power.

2) If i go pre-power what would you recommend ( not necessarily new )

3) What is your experience with positioning the speakers. My room is 21' x 14' with 8' ceilings and the speakers fire down the length. At the moment the Kef's need to be 5' from the rear wall and 3.5' from each side wall.This intrudes too much on the room. Whichever speaker i choose needs to be able to work a bit closer to the rear walls ( say 3') - what is your experience.

4) Is the 802 as large as i could go in that room. I would like maximum bass response but do not want to add a sub.

Thanks Mark

[cug]

Thanks for the input guys. You seem to be agreeing KAV400i may be a bit lacking in its performance into the difficult load the 802D's present.

Actually, I would try it. Take your amp to the dealer and test there - compare it to whatever monster they have in store. I wouldn't spent a lot money because some people here think, that your amp is too small.

1) Is there an integrated amp with what it takes or do i have to go pre-power.

I doubt it, that if the Krell is not good enough, any integrated will be much better.

If there is one with an incredibly stable power supply - maybe.

2) If i go pre-power what would you recommend ( not necessarily new )

I'd get a Bryston 4B (SST). Or, a bit more expensive, a Classé CA-2200. I hate the look of the McIntoshs, but they build good amps. Not sure how something like the Rotel 1092 would handle the low impedance. Maybe not sooo good.

Pre: More important is your taste here. Get something you like. Power amp is not as critical as long as can provide enough current for the speakers.

[Pedro]

To the 802D for my taste: Krell EVO 400 or 402, Electrocompaniet AW400, Classe CAM400.

The CA2200 and Bryston 4Bsst isnt enough to this speaker. If MTBMark want to get a great bass, he must go with an amp that works below 4 ohms or have a lot of current like i said above.

[cug]

The CA2200 and Bryston 4Bsst isnt enough to this speaker.

If the volume is very moderate (and I only listen with moderate volumes at home), I doubt that you would be able to hear the difference between your 2x500W monster and my little integrated (2x60W) when they are properly leveled with a EQ.

[Briz vegas]

Once again this tread is more than a little of the blind leading the blind.

Mark, I assume that your room is not that huge, that you place is of brick or similar construction (yes/no). What is you taste in music, what sort of volume do you listen at, what do you like about your Krell and current setup and what do you want to improve?

Another huge question is your budget. If 802Ds are on the cards you must have a decent budget to play with.

I have read a few reviews of the Krell 400xi in the past when I was looking for an amp. The reviews pointed out that some of the necessary economising (to achieve the price pont) was in the expensive heat sinks. As a consequence of this and other factors the review (think it was stereophile) warned against using the 400xi with difficult loads (like 802). This is one reason that I decided not to go with that Krell for my 804s (3ohm min). Another big factor was that the Krell is $5,000 in Australia while the Conrad Johnson I favoured was on special for $8,000. The CJ is over double the price of the Krell in the US - you get a more sophisticated sound for that extra investment.

Unfortunately the CJ is very expensive in the UK otherwise I would suggest the CA200 despite is relatively modest output (300w at 4ohm). If you like acoustic instruments, vocals, Jazz, world, blues etc its a wonderful sounding bit of kit with the same functionality as an integrated (it only has one gain stage however, but I suspect that there lies its magic). I listen to about 50% alternative music - and it even brings something nice to those pretty ordinary recordings. Even blues recordings from the 1920s sound great. Re its ability with difficult loads, my CJ recently drove a pair of older Martin Logans (not one of the easier to drive part active models) without any problems - sounded sweet.

I am sure that others can recommend other alternatives.

[cug]

Once again this tread is more than a little of the blind leading the blind.

Which is actually the only valid test method.

I have read a few reviews of the Krell 400xi in the past when I was looking for an amp. The reviews pointed out that some of the necessary economising (to achieve the price pont) was in the expensive heat sinks. As a consequence of this and other factors the review (think it was stereophile) warned against using the 400xi with difficult loads (like 802).

That's the first bit of useful information in this thread. I'm interested: Where did you read that? I just can't remember reading it in the reviews, I only recall that the testers said, the amp gets really hot.

Next:

A german magazin (Audio) rates all speaker and amplifiers with a "audio classification number" so you know whether you can safely match an amp with a specific speaker (just from the electrical point of view). According to that, you can more than safely match a 802D with a Krell KAV 300iL which has, according to Krell, the same power rating as the KAV 400xi.

The number:

Krell KAV 300iL: AK 76
B&W 802D: AK 60

Which means this is way in the green range! I wouldn't probably use my RA-1062 for louder volumes on the 802D with it's AK 60 rating.

So, who do I trust more? You or some guys who actually measured the things and checked?

Interesting enough is, that the 804S has a higher number with AK 66 and Bowers & Wilkins give specs of 3 Ohm min for the 804S and 3.5 Ohm for the 802D. So according to said magazin, the 804S needs higher output capabilities than the 802D.

Not that I really trust them sooooo much, they also hear things, that are just ridiculous, but from the technical standpoint, they are normally quite okay. And: I don't trust anybody in audio questions. I go and listen. And read specifications. I don't care, if some guy says an amplifier sounds more refined (because that is - in my opinion - just not true) or whatever. I could trust measurements saying it has a better load handling or frequency response (which might result in sound differences) but that's about it.

So, back to the original poster: because some audiophiles (which by definition means, they are more into equipment than into music) assume you would be better of with a high priced amp, I wouldn't spent even one dollar on that. Go and listen. Compare your amp with more powerful, more expensive, whatever amplifiers with your prefered music and your prefered volume and decide. From the electrical point, all I read is, that your amp will handle the 802D just fine.

[Pedro]

The number:

Krell KAV 300iL: AK 76
B&W 802D: AK 60

I dont trust in AK numbers. I trust in my ears.

The Audio.DE magazine has rated Denon AVR2805 receiver as AK 65, so could it drive the 802D? Probably to my taste and to 99% audiophile people not, and also, this receiver isnt refined enough for 802D´s. C´mon!!

[cug]

I trust measurements. Yes, I'm a a scientist, not a believer. I only trust my ears in blind abx tests. And anybody who says he trusts his ears WITHOUT blind testing, is not trustworthy in my opinion.

There are more reasons for buying an amplifier than just listening to it, but this is one of things mostly done wrong.

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I've posted this before http://www.stereophile.com/reference/707heavy/ which is a great article looking at why many speakers are hard to drive when playing real world music with real world dynamic range... They even test the B&W 802D as an example of a very difficult load...

Essentiallty transients in normal music can overwhelm the current capbilities of many applifiers, hence creating the anomoly that a high current amp can often sound way better playing music at the same volume than a smaller amp, expeciially the often heavily current limited ones..

I have a sound pressue level meter and have tried this myself.. Once you hear the difference it is unmistkable, the speaker suddenly sounds free and unconstrained...

Of interest, here is the Sterophile review of the Krell 400xi http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/205krell/ which covers the heat / current issue etc... Personally I really like the sound of the 400xi but in a demandign speaker like the 802D care would need to be taken with volume and ventelaion so it did not overheat...

Geoff

[cug]

Of interest, here is the Sterophile review of the Krell 400xi

That was really interesting as it explains why people say, that the Krell sounds so powerful in the bass area: it fades out the rest ... :B

Will probably sound "warm and has enorm control over the bass" in "reviewers english" ... ;-)

[Briz vegas]

I trust measurements. Yes, I'm a a scientist, not a believer. I only trust my ears in blind abx tests. And anybody who says he trusts his ears WITHOUT blind testing, is not trustworthy in my opinion.

There are more reasons for buying an amplifier than just listening to it, but this is one of things mostly done wrong.

Yeah I did a science degree in the early 90s so I have some idea about scientific method. Many recent advances in science have come from better methods of measurement and better understanding of what to measure. Personally I do not favour the blind A B test as I suspect it does not account for our limited ability to listen, particularly in stressful situations. My preference is for extended auditions. The amp I hear most often other than my own is a Krell KAV300r.

Re trusting my advice, what I post here is my opinion based on my experience and reviews that have provided me with some background before I went auditioning, nothing more.

On the topic of reviews I was quoting the tech assessment at the end of the Stereophile article which concludes:

"Summing up the Krell KAV-400xi's measured performance is difficult, as some of its odd behavior will not be an issue when it comes to playing back music at normal listening levels. It is also possible that our sample was defective, though the fact that both channels behaved similarly is evidence for that not being the case. But I would avoid pairing the amplifier with loudspeakers that drop below 4 ohms—such as Krell's own Resolution 1—and would make sure it had adequate ventilation.—John Atkinson "

[cug]

Personally I do not favour the blind A B test as I suspect it does not account for our limited ability to listen, particularly in stressful situations. My preference is for extended auditions. The amp I hear most often other than my own is a Krell KAV300r.

Right, it is hard to relax under pressure and really listen. But it is much harder to avoid influence from what we see or assume we must hear when we know which electronics are playing.

But I don't want to force anyone in hearing something - what I want to get from a blind test is that the listener doesn't take "marketing" into account and assuming he has to hear a difference just because one amp is three times the price of the other. Instead he should select the one he likes better without knowing which one that is.

There are normally audible difference between amplifiers because of at least two (definitely known) measurable things:

- frequency response
- ability to drive a speaker

So, I really hope to hear differences in a non-leveled (frequency wise) setup because there are normally a lot of differences especially between the old style class A/B and the newer class D amps if you stay within the same company (Rotel is an example). But there is normally no "better" or worse, just a "different".

According to the measurements you quote here:

"Summing up the Krell KAV-400xi's measured performance is difficult, as some of its odd behavior will not be an issue when it comes to playing back music at normal listening levels. It is also possible that our sample was defective, though the fact that both channels behaved similarly is evidence for that not being the case. But I would avoid pairing the amplifier with loudspeakers that drop below 4 ohms—such as Krell's own Resolution 1—and would make sure it had adequate ventilation.—John Atkinson "

It might be that that Krell can get in trouble if the room is too big, the volume too high, the summer too hot, whatever. But that manifests itself rarely at normal listening volumes which seldom exceed 10 to 50W in peaks with speakers that have a 90dB@1W/1m efficiency. And if you are 4m away from the speaker, you still get 80dB from 10W which is not quiet at all! 90dB over longer time result in hearing damage.

As I said, even after that quote above, I still wouldn't be worried (and I was working with speakers, amplifiers and very high volume levels for 15 years professionally), I would try it and see whether I have to change something. I wouldn't try a (disco loud) party with that amp and the 802D, but that has also other reasons.

Still, there might (or better, probably will be) an audible difference because the amp might really not be able to drive the 802D, but that is something you have to test yourself before spending thousands of dollars in new equipment. Everybody has to say for himself whether the difference is worth the money. Everything else is just burning money ... better to send it over here, I could use some ...

(Anybody here who needs some "perfect" audio XLR cable - I could sell mine for $10k ...)

[Greg Gale]

To the 802D for my taste: Krell EVO 400 or 402, Electrocompaniet AW400, Classe CAM400.

The CA2200 and Bryston 4Bsst isnt enough to this speaker. If MTBMark want to get a great bass, he must go with an amp that works below 4 ohms or have a lot of current like i said above.

I disagree completely with the statement the CA2200 is not enough power for the 802's. I have the CA2200 and listen primarily to Classic rock and have my system in a large room which is 20 x 18 with 18 foot ceilings and can listen and get up to 110db peaks which has the room and your body shaking.

The Classe is very clean, smooth and will play without distortion.

I also had a Bryston 4BSSt that I had for comparison before I purchased the Classe and while the Bryston would play loudly, it was not as smooth as the Classe and after a while at high volume was fatiguing to my wifes and my ears.

Bottom line is the Classe CA2200 is sufficient.

[WI Rotel]

Hi everyone, Some advise please
Its time to upgrade my Kef speakers
My speaker listening shortlist is down to PMC EB1, Focal 1037Be & 802D's
My main query is my current amp. I've got the baby Krell ( KAV400i ) which i like. Its rated at 200W into 8 ohms. Will it have enough power / quality to do justice to the 802D's or should i be looking at an amp upgrade aswell.
If so some recommendations ( perhaps second hand ) would be welcome
Thanks Mark

Ignore all the naysayers, your 200W krell will do just fine, however 2 for bi amping would do even better!
:T

[SoCalCM]

I've used the baby Krell on my 802Ds and it is just fine, you still get that super 802D sound -- but my Classe CA3200 does make them sound noticeably better. If you're on a tighter budget, just use the Krell and enjoy the speakers. Upgrade later if you want to. I've kicked around the idea of copying Kal R and getting the BelCanto monoblocks -- 1000 watts -- WhooHoo!