Upgrade from 803D's to 802D's

[gsengmaq]

I'm thinking about upgrading my 803D's to the 802D's. I will be able to get the "old" price from my dealer, i.e. $12.000.-, and he will take my 3 months old 803D's back for what I paid for them. I have not been able to audition these speakers side by side, only separately but the 802D's I think felt more "forward" and less laid back. I think that they also give a little better bass. I'm not unhappy with the 803D's but since I have the opportunity to get the 802D's at a good price, I'm wondering if I should go for it? They will be powered by McIntosh MX120 (pre/pro) and MC207 (7*200W). Is this enough to drive the 802D's? Even if I get them at the old price, it's still some $5.000.- to invest so I'm curious about how you all feel about it. Right now it feels like I'm always going to wonder if I should have gotten the 802D's if I don't take this opportunity. I'm aware that there has been other posts in the past similar to this one but I hope you don't mind helping out.
Gert

[jericho]

I'm thinking about upgrading my 803D's to the 802D's. I will be able to get the "old" price from my dealer, i.e. $12.000.-, and he will take my 3 months old 803D's back for what I paid for them. I have not been able to audition these speakers side by side, only separately but the 802D's I think felt more "forward" and less laid back. I think that they also give a little better bass. I'm not unhappy with the 803D's but since I have the opportunity to get the 802D's at a good price, I'm wondering if I should go for it? They will be powered by McIntosh MX120 (pre/pro) and MC207 (7*200W). Is this enough to drive the 802D's? Even if I get them at the old price, it's still some $5.000.- to invest so I'm curious about how you all feel about it. Right now it feels like I'm always going to wonder if I should have gotten the 802D's if I don't take this opportunity. I'm aware that there has been other posts in the past similar to this one but I hope you don't mind helping out.
Gert

Already thought about testing McIntosh speakers on your set???I have also a complete set of B&W driven biy McIntosh.If I could start again, I would go for McIntosh speakers instead of B&W.

[RebelMan]

Already thought about testing McIntosh speakers on your set???I have also a complete set of B&W driven biy McIntosh.If I could start again, I would go for McIntosh speakers instead of B&W.

This surprises me coming from you Jericho. I've heard all the expensive McIntosh speakers and came to a different conclusion. Are you serious or are you pulling a Briz vegas comedy routine?

[jericho]

This surprises me coming from you Jericho. I've heard all the expensive McIntosh speakers and came to a different conclusion. Are you serious or are you pulling a Briz vegas comedy routine?

I'm very serious!!! If you ever have the occassion to listen to the XRT1K, you will be very surprised.Compared with my 800D's or my 802D's, the McIntosh speakers are better according my ears, and a lot!!!I must admit, that the amps need to be McIntosh too.Much more bass, more detail, they sound smoother, especially when you listen to Jazz.
If I would have the occassion to sell my B&W's, I would certainly go for it!!!
Sorry I have to say this on this forum and until now, I always have been a big B&W fan; I have a pair of 800D's, a pair of 802D's a pair of 805's and an HTM-1D, as well as two ASW-855 and an ASW-825.
A friend of mine has a pair of XRT2K speakers with the corresponding amps from McIntosh, the MC2KW, hearing this combination, I was NAILED TO THE GROUND.
Never heard anything better!!
Of couse, we talk here about 90000€ for a pair of speakers and alsmost 70000€ for the amps!!!

[sikoniko]

I'm very serious!!! If you ever have the occassion to listen to the XRT1K, you will be very surprised.Compared with my 800D's or my 802D's, the McIntosh speakers are better according my ears, and a lot!!!I must admit, that the amps need to be McIntosh too.Much more bass, more detail, they sound smoother, especially when you listen to Jazz.
If I would have the occassion to sell my B&W's, I would certainly go for it!!!
Sorry I have to say this on this forum and until now, I always have been a big B&W fan; I have a pair of 800D's, a pair of 802D's a pair of 805's and an HTM-1D, as well as two ASW-855 and an ASW-825.
A friend of mine has a pair of XRT2K speakers with the corresponding amps from McIntosh, the MC2KW, hearing this combination, I was NAILED TO THE GROUND.
Never heard anything better!!
Of couse, we talk here about 90000€ for a pair of speakers and alsmost 70000€ for the amps!!!

without hearing both systems side-by-side with the same variables, I think you are taking a haisty position...

[htsteve]

I'm thinking about upgrading my 803D's to the 802D's. I will be able to get the "old" price from my dealer, i.e. $12.000.-, and he will take my 3 months old 803D's back for what I paid for them. I have not been able to audition these speakers side by side, only separately but the 802D's I think felt more "forward" and less laid back. I think that they also give a little better bass. I'm not unhappy with the 803D's but since I have the opportunity to get the 802D's at a good price, I'm wondering if I should go for it? They will be powered by McIntosh MX120 (pre/pro) and MC207 (7*200W). Is this enough to drive the 802D's? Even if I get them at the old price, it's still some $5.000.- to invest so I'm curious about how you all feel about it. Right now it feels like I'm always going to wonder if I should have gotten the 802D's if I don't take this opportunity. I'm aware that there has been other posts in the past similar to this one but I hope you don't mind helping out.
Gert

gsengmag,

I have a nearly identical system. 802D's, HTM2D (N804 in the rear), McIntosh MX120 and MC205. I looked at both the 803D and 802D. The 802D is superior. I also had the "I could have had 802D" thoughts in my head. The Mac and 802D combo is wonderful. Very detailed, excellent bass, awesome midrange. Any source, no matter how good or not so good, sounds awesome with this combo. You would be quite happy.

The MC 207 will be plenty for the 802D's, assuming you have a normal sized room. My room is medium sized. Even in a large room, I don't think the Mac will have any trouble.

Your dealer has also given you a nice opportunity to step up.


Hope this helps.

[gsengmaq]

Thanks htsteve,

I believe I'll take the plunge. Even my wife encourages me, knowing that I'll be mulling over this for a long time otherwise. I'll let you know what I think when I get them. If I feel they lacking in amp power, I guess I can always upgrade to an MC402 later

[Tommy]

Thanks htsteve,

I believe I'll take the plunge. Even my wife encourages me, knowing that I'll be mulling over this for a long time otherwise. I'll let you know what I think when I get them. If I feel they lacking in amp power, I guess I can always upgrade to an MC402 later

Or the MC501s. Your 802D will love it. :B

[RebelMan]

I'm very serious!!! If you ever have the occassion to listen to the XRT1K, you will be very surprised.Compared with my 800D's or my 802D's, the McIntosh speakers are better according my ears, and a lot!!!I must admit, that the amps need to be McIntosh too.Much more bass, more detail, they sound smoother, especially when you listen to Jazz.
If I would have the occassion to sell my B&W's, I would certainly go for it!!!
Sorry I have to say this on this forum and until now, I always have been a big B&W fan; I have a pair of 800D's, a pair of 802D's a pair of 805's and an HTM-1D, as well as two ASW-855 and an ASW-825.
A friend of mine has a pair of XRT2K speakers with the corresponding amps from McIntosh, the MC2KW, hearing this combination, I was NAILED TO THE GROUND.
Never heard anything better!!
Of couse, we talk here about 90000€ for a pair of speakers and alsmost 70000€ for the amps!!!

Interesting. Well I heard the XRT2K with Jazz with all McIntosh electronics in an nearly optimized room with multiple channels and thought it was quite good. It has it's strengths like the ability to play well in a large room and deliver low end grunt and ample soundstaging. However I wasn't as impressed as I ought to have been and neither was my friend (typical with the McIntosh house sound imaging was off). He in fact liked my previous system of 803S better "overall" when you consider room size and application.

If you really want to be impressed you need to hear the MBL 101 X-tremes. They are priced inline with the XRT2K but that's about it. They are perhaps the best of the best. They do have one weak spot in that they are very dependent on room conditions. Nevertheless, they have set the bar for my friend and I. However, my 800D do quite well to bring some level of the MBL experience into my home. This is why I was amazed by your comments.

[jericho]

Interesting. Well I heard the XRT2K with Jazz with all McIntosh electronics in an nearly optimized room with multiple channels and thought it was quite good. It has it's strengths like the ability to play well in a large room and deliver low end grunt and ample soundstaging. However I wasn't as impressed as I ought to have been and neither was my friend (typical with the McIntosh house sound imaging was off). He in fact liked my previous system of 803S better "overall" when you consider room size and application.

If you really want to be impressed you need to hear the MBL 101 X-tremes. They are priced inline with the XRT2K but that's about it. They are perhaps the best of the best. They do have one weak spot in that they are very dependent on room conditions. Nevertheless, they have set the bar for my friend and I. However, my 800D do quite well to bring some level of the MBL experience into my home. This is why I was amazed by your comments.

Sorry for being on the B&W forum, having the 800D's and not having the same idea.I prefer the McIntosh speakers, lucky enough we all have different taste, otherwise we would only have B&W and Classé, and there would be no discussions on this forum

[george_k]

without hearing both systems side-by-side with the same variables, I think you are taking a haisty position...

I think sikoniko pretty much nailed...keyword being "variables".

The best setup I've heard to date (i.e. room, acoustic treatment, cables, speakers, equipment) was a pair of Quad electrostats run off quad electronics in a treated room about 15x20ft if I had to guess. I'd put the total cost of this system at around $15-20k

I've also heard systems costing many times more including a setup that was based around a pair of Wilson Alexandria's and honestly after all time that Quad setup I heard back in 2002-2003 is still my baseline, long story short the devil is in the details.

[RebelMan]

Sorry for being on the B&W forum, having the 800D's and not having the same idea.I prefer the McIntosh speakers, lucky enough we all have different taste, otherwise we would only have B&W and Classé, and there would be no discussions on this forum

No apologies necessary Jericho but in all fairness your position seems limited to McIntosh. I have had the benefit of hearing many great systems and have an appreciation for a number of them some more so than others, the $400K McIntosh system included. I have been vocal about it publicly when the opportunity present's itself. I am not tied down to just one brand.

It just so happens that the whole B&W and Classe' package is among some of the best systems in the world and an optimal fit to my wallet my space and my ears. From a technical side I can also appreciate the dedication and engineering that is invested. If you are going to mention the really big buck speaker systems then you owe it to yourself, really your ears, to hear some of them. For the money and their class the McIntosh speakers are just "okay".

[htsteve]

Thanks htsteve,

I believe I'll take the plunge. Even my wife encourages me, knowing that I'll be mulling over this for a long time otherwise. I'll let you know what I think when I get them. If I feel they lacking in amp power, I guess I can always upgrade to an MC402 later

gsengmaq,

I like your thinking. Some Diamonds for your wife on Valentines day! :B

[jericho]

No apologies necessary Jericho but in all fairness your position seems limited to McIntosh. I have had the benefit of hearing many great systems and have an appreciation for a number of them some more so than others, the $400K McIntosh system included. I have been vocal about it publicly when the opportunity present's itself. I am not tied down to just one brand.

It just so happens that the whole B&W and Classe' package is among some of the best systems in the world and an optimal fit to my wallet my space and my ears. From a technical side I can also appreciate the dedication and engineering that is invested. If you are going to mention the really big buck speaker systems then you owe it to yourself, really your ears, to hear some of them. For the money and their class the McIntosh speakers are just "okay".

Thanks Rebelman, don't forget I always read your feedback's and have always appreciated your support to many members of the forum. I think we all like a special brand, if one decides to chose for B&W, it's because he like's it better than another brand or because the other is too expensive.I know if you're spending tons of euro's for a system, you arrive at a certain point were you are going to spend lots of money for almost no difference in better sound.
I think we are all maniac and we are always trying to have the best according to our own ears.

[RebelMan]

I think we all like a special brand, if one decides to chose for B&W, it's because he like's it better than another brand or because the other is too expensive.I know if you're spending tons of euro's for a system, you arrive at a certain point were you are going to spend lots of money for almost no difference in better sound.
I think we are all maniac and we are always trying to have the best according to our own ears.

How true. :T

[jericho]

No apologies necessary Jericho but in all fairness your position seems limited to McIntosh. I have had the benefit of hearing many great systems and have an appreciation for a number of them some more so than others, the $400K McIntosh system included. I have been vocal about it publicly when the opportunity present's itself. I am not tied down to just one brand.

It just so happens that the whole B&W and Classe' package is among some of the best systems in the world and an optimal fit to my wallet my space and my ears. From a technical side I can also appreciate the dedication and engineering that is invested. If you are going to mention the really big buck speaker systems then you owe it to yourself, really your ears, to hear some of them. For the money and their class the McIntosh speakers are just "okay".

Thanks Rebelman, don't forget I always read your feedback's and have always appreciated your support to many members of the forum. I think we all like a special brand, if one decides to chose for B&W, it's because he like's it better than another brand or because the other is too expensive.I know if you're spending tons of euro's for a system, you arrive at a certain point were you are going to spend lots of money for almost no difference in better sound.
I think we are all maniac and we are always trying to have the best according to our own ears.

[skuzzyb]

Thanks htsteve,

I believe I'll take the plunge. Even my wife encourages me, knowing that I'll be mulling over this for a long time otherwise. I'll let you know what I think when I get them. If I feel they lacking in amp power, I guess I can always upgrade to an MC402 later

I would endorse the upgrade. My dealer loaned me his 803D demos over the holidays (Christmas) while my 802Ds were on order. These were driven by a Classe CA2200 and the source was a Cambridge Audio 840C CD player. They were good, in fact, they were just short of greatness. Good imaging, wide soundstage, and the mid range was very vivid and lifelike. One thing I did notice with off axis listening was that they became very directional and I could localize the sound from left/right speakers a lot easier. I took delivery of my 802Ds two weeks ago and while they is still breaking in (my electronics are still getting to optimum condition as well), I immediately could tell the difference. I love these speakers!! The mid range really came alive, a lot more three dimensional soundstage and the localization of the sound was a lot less so unless I stood right in front of the speaker. Off axis listening has improved immensely and now I do not have to sit right in the middle of my sofa to get the sweetspot for listening. I listen a lot of blues, jazz and electronic compilations/remixes and I must say that I am enjoying my music more than ever before. Nina Simone and Ray Charles have never sounded this good. Oh, I think that 200WPC is more than enough.

Enjoy the trade.

[PavelL]

I'm very serious!!! If you ever have the occassion to listen to the XRT1K, you will be very surprised.Compared with my 800D's or my 802D's, the McIntosh speakers are better according my ears, and a lot!!!I must admit, that the amps need to be McIntosh too.Much more bass, more detail, they sound smoother, especially when you listen to Jazz.
If I would have the occassion to sell my B&W's, I would certainly go for it!!!
Sorry I have to say this on this forum and until now, I always have been a big B&W fan; I have a pair of 800D's, a pair of 802D's a pair of 805's and an HTM-1D, as well as two ASW-855 and an ASW-825.
A friend of mine has a pair of XRT2K speakers with the corresponding amps from McIntosh, the MC2KW, hearing this combination, I was NAILED TO THE GROUND.
Never heard anything better!!
Of couse, we talk here about 90000€ for a pair of speakers and alsmost 70000€ for the amps!!!

Hi Jerico! Did you have a chance to compare Mac sound to B&W sound side-by-side? Or were those listening sessions in totally different acoustic environments? And also one more question - is YOUR HT room acoustically treated? Just to clarify things. Thanks.

[jericho]

Hi Jerico! Did you have a chance to compare Mac sound to B&W sound side-by-side? Or were those listening sessions in totally different acoustic environments? And also one more question - is YOUR HT room acoustically treated? Just to clarify things. Thanks.

My room is not treated acoustically, but neither was the room with the McIntosh setup at my best friends home.
It's just another dimension. One day I'll change my setup and put McIntosh speakers instead that's for shure.It sounded better to me, of course I understand that not everybody has the same taste.

[cug]

My room is not treated acoustically, but neither was the room with the McIntosh setup at my best friends home.
It's just another dimension. One day I'll change my setup and put McIntosh speakers instead that's for shure.It sounded better to me, of course I understand that not everybody has the same taste.

And as long as you're not comparing in the same environment, saying one really good system sounds better than the other is a bit, hmmm, how do I say that, ... stretched ...

The room and the rest of the system has so much influence, that it might just be the other way around, when you compare the systems in one room with the same electronics.

So, before you sell your stuff, you should make a real comparison and not just catching a glimpse of a comparison ...

[gsengmaq]

Just thought I'd let you know how things turned out, since, after all, I started this thread.

I am ecstatic about the improvement from the 803D's. Mind you, I really liked the 803D's but the 802D's are something else. Tighter bass, more forward mid's (which I thought were a little mellow on the 803D's) and airier highs. I upgraded to balanced cables just before I changed speaker and I as surprised how much better they sounded. Going to the 802D's improved thing even more. So far I have not felt that I am lacking in power with the MC207 (7*200W) and maybe I just don't play loudly enough to tax the amp? Maybe, down the road, I'll try to audition a 402 or a pair of 501's to see if they really add that much. I think that, by far, the speaker change did more to improve things than adding another, more powerful amp could possibly do. Again, the law of diminishing returns!

[Pedro]

gsengmaq, what amp have you auditioned with the 802D?

I'm asking because, the 803D demands the same current, and using the same amp the output bass will be not so much diferent. The midrange, for sure is very diferent in 802D wich in 803D is way laidback.

[gsengmaq]

gsengmaq, what amp have you auditioned with the 802D?

I'm asking because, the 803D demands the same current, and using the same amp the output bass will be not so much diferent. The midrange, for sure is very diferent in 802D wich in 803D is way laidback.

I have only listened to the MC207 (used it for the 803D's as well) but I am sure there is a tighter, even deeper, bass output. I didn't place the speakers in exactly the same spot and, maybe the new balanced cables added to this perceived improvement. On the other hand, us humans are pretty good at deluding ourselves when it comes to defend our investments :W