XT4 upgrade to 8'er series?!?

[Frankster72]

Hi,

I have a complete home cinema setup

XT4 Fronts
XT2 Reads
XTC Center
PV1 Sub

which sounds very descent....
and as far as I know utilizes the XT series the same 25mm tweeter then the 8'er series except the ones with the diamond tweeter...

first:
is it possible to replace the XT4 with an 803 or 804 and have an homogenic sound with the XT center and surrounds?

second:
Is the sound difference for highs and mids that big that upgrading to 803 or 804 makes sense? If not I would be maybe better of with a second PV1 subwoofer placing it next to each XT4

third:
or does it make way more sense to use the subwoofer just for surround and get a diamond tweeter model like the 803d for the fronts to upgrade sound?

thanks in advance for your recommendations,
best regards,

frank

[WI Rotel]

This is a difficult question, The 8 series and the XT have quite a different character. The XT is first and foremost a home theater speaker with extremely wide dispersion characteristics, the 8's have a more focused stereo optimised image.
Before you jump into the lake and change the whole thing I have a couple questions that may help to improve your XT expirience and cost a whole less than the 8's
1- What amp are you using??? If you are driving the XT4 with less than 150 dedicated Watts you are grossly underdriving them. For 1K you can hook them up to an RMB 1080 (200W) that will make them really sing. Truly its not the watts but its hunger for amps that is the issue. I have not seen a receiver driving a full surround system that can drive the XT4 appropriately, period.
2-Is your room big?? Try adding another PV1 (1.5K). The PV1 doesn't pack a big wallop, for big rooms you will need 2.

[Frankster72]

This is a difficult question, The 8 series and the XT have quite a different character. The XT is first and foremost a home theater speaker with extremely wide dispersion characteristics, the 8's have a more focused stereo optimised image.
Before you jump into the lake and change the whole thing I have a couple questions that may help to improve your XT expirience and cost a whole less than the 8's
1- What amp are you using??? If you are driving the XT4 with less than 150 dedicated Watts you are grossly underdriving them. For 1K you can hook them up to an RMB 1080 (200W) that will make them really sing. Truly its not the watts but its hunger for amps that is the issue. I have not seen a receiver driving a full surround system that can drive the XT4 appropriately, period.
2-Is your room big?? Try adding another PV1 (1.5K). The PV1 doesn't pack a big wallop, for big rooms you will need 2.

Hi,
first I saw your setup on the pictures - very nice!
my amp ist the rotel rmb-1077 it delivers about 125 watts for stereo. I also did a posting of bridging the 1077 to 5 channels. the pre is a rsp-1069.
room size is 6m x 5m but it is a wooden house - means the walls are build out of damping materials. for movies I have to power the amp at 70% volume level.
which amp are you using - have you found a good solution for the xt4?

the pv1 is located right in front behind the XT4, a second pv1 would also look nice. the next thing I would like to try is connecting the pv1 by the telephon wire to the front amp outputs...

my main thing is listening (stereo) musik and little movies. I might post pictures of the room....

also it would be critcal if I have enough space to place an 804 or 803 appropriatly...

[WI Rotel]

Around here I know of only one person that has compared the XT with an RMB 1077 and an rb 1080. According to him it was no comparison the RB 1080 blew the 1077 (on the XT4) away.
I have a 7.1 system, the XT4's have their own RB 1080, the other 5 speakers (4 )XT2 and the XTC are on an RMB 1095, thus every channel is being driven by 200W. Of course, the 2 PV1's are on their own. Before I purchased the 2 rear XT2's I was running everything with the 1095. The sound was fabulous, but driving the XT4 with their own dedicated and powerful amp has improved their sound noticeably, the bass is more tight and punchy, and the mids are sharper. The speaker sounds more dynamic and less laid back. Maybe its the high damping factor of the RB 1080 (its more than double the 1095's 400 vs 1000)
The XT4 is a very difficult drive thus as sound levels go up its impedance will drop steeply taxing pretty much all but the most powerful amps. Regardless of amp, impedences around 2 ohms are very demanding, further taxing the amp with 3 more speakers at the same time is a sure recipe for muddy sound.

BTW hows the 1069? I'm still wondering if replacing my 1068 is worth it. I have an elite 1080p monitor which does its own deinterlacing and the picture is magnificent using the 1068's component video output whether using HD or regular programming. One movie that is beyond belief in HDDVD (my favorite up to now) is 2001 a space odyssey the colors and picture are simply beyond belief!

[Mig17]

B&W 800 series is an obsession for many man

[Frankster72]

Around here I know of only one person that has compared the XT with an RMB 1077 and an rb 1080. According to him it was no comparison the RB 1080 blew the 1077 (on the XT4) away.

oh no! so I totally deciced for the wrong amp!
I would like to stay with the D series, so upgrading means buying a 1092! Anyone tried the 1092 on the XT4?

BTW hows the 1069? I'm still wondering if replacing my 1068 is worth it.

I friend of mine got the 1068 driving previously the 804. but the 1069 - I guess it is not worth the upgrade.

first the scaler does a bad job. had problem with hdcp and 24p. also in general the quality with 1080p source material was blury, see the thread for the 1069 where ppl getting a replacement board. In euroupe rotel does not seem to install hdmi pass through replacement boards.

right now I used my connections and shipped my 1069 back hin hoping to get an us replacement board...

except this the 1069 got a better d/a converter then the 1068. that was the mean reason for me to buy this one.
the 1068 sounds in comparison a bit to bright using s/p dif input. driving by analog this doesn't matter. but for me - my main audio / video source is a htpc so I rely on excellent d/a conversion....

[Nolan B]

oh no! so I totally deciced for the wrong amp!
I would like to stay with the D series, so upgrading means buying a 1092! Anyone tried the 1092 on the XT4?
.

I dont think you did honestly. While my 1077 powers very efficient speakers and its likely overkill for what I have, I have heard the 1077 powering B&W 803s. I didnt get the feeling at any sound level that they were starved for power.

IMO this forum needs more examples of people who have done comparisons of rotel's class D amps vs other traditional amps. If you have the chance to compare please do and report back.


they 1077 needs some play time to open up, but my gut tells me they can handle XTs very well.

[Nolan B]

BTW hows the 1069? I'm still wondering if replacing my 1068 is worth it.

If you want my opinion I think that if you are into HD DVD or BD and enjoy the new audio formats its a very worth while upgrade. If you dont own/watch many new hi rez movies and already own the 1068 its probably not worth the upgrade.

[Frankster72]

If you want my opinion I think that if you are into HD DVD or BD and enjoy the new audio formats its a very worth while upgrade. If you dont own/watch many new hi rez movies and already own the 1068 its probably not worth the upgrade.

nolan,
the 1069 does't support the new as well the 1068 neither did... also hdmi 1.3 isn't supported (except you gonna let install the pass through board...)

so the only sense of upgrading is the better d/a converter and - sadly you can't take advantage of it writh hd sound formats...

well, the 1077 - now after > 100h pink noise break in it really sounds nice to the XT4. but when I listen to the same songs using my other equipment (unison unico 2x80w power amp on a pair of dynaudio c1 compact speakers) bass / mids / treble are far superior with the dynaudio / unison combo

it would be really worth a try to operate the xt4 at a different amp like the 1080. on the other side, instead doing the investment lets say get a 1092 and another sub PV1 and selling the XT4. I could almost buy an 803d and operate it at the 1077. I think the 803d is less amp critical then the xt4...

[Nolan B]

nolan,
the 1069 does't support the new as well the 1068 neither did... also hdmi 1.3 isn't supported (except you gonna let install the pass through board...)

so the only sense of upgrading is the better d/a converter and - sadly you can't take advantage of it writh hd sound formats...

You are missing the point with what the 1069 offers..may people have bought into the hype of HDMI 1.3 thinking they need it to experience hi rez audio. That is not true.

The 1069 accepts Hi Rez PCM via the HDMI input. This allows me to be able to listen to the high res audio from my HD DVDs and BDs. HDMI 1.3 would not offer any sound quality upgrade.

[Frankster72]

good to know, I really hope I get my 1069 soon back ...

[style]

upgrade

@Vancouver,

the sub is the last from your problem. the PV1 is a very good sub, with a 8's serie or XT....

Personaly I have a 803s fro front (powered with Rotel RB1092) and your RMB1077 is sure better vs. the old 1095.
See for 804s for the front, the center XT with a Rsp1069 set to Dolby Music
panorama: disat./depth: 3/ su: 4 - and make your test = your heart!)
is sure not a bad set.

For the rear/surround: the XT2 are not bad too. sure better as a pair of CM1
= to much confusion. I have the 805s for rear but so one beutifull speaker only for surround is not the maximun...
---
Another solution is buy the 805sfor front and a htm4s for center.with this solution a second PV1 can be very nice and the XTcenter can you utilise for center back!.

If do you will make a really big leap with 803d and htm2d put in your cart a rb1092 to drive the 803d...


Greetings rom Switzerland
Omar

[WI Rotel]

This is getting rather confusing! The 1068 provides the same audio decoding as the 1069. It does it through the digital audio input. It simply lacks HDMI. Video is analog using the component video, however as we already know the Xbox 360 does transmit 1080p through component video. Furthermore, all 1080p plasmas deinterlace 1080i into 1080p. The HDDVD movies that include HD audio are decoded by the 1068 into dolby digital+XT into 7.1 surround. Ergo, although HDMI might offer a simpler connection, as far as I can tell, you can get the same results with component video plus a digital audio connection and a 1080p set. When playing HD Audio from HDDVD's the "rear" sound is unmistakeably full spectrum audio distinct from the "surround" channels, the sound is pretty darned spectacular. The only reason I was looking at the 1069 was for the HDMI connections, it would eliminate the unneccesary digital to analog to digital video conversion and thus have a simple fully digital path from source to screen, furthermore, it would make the separate digital audio connection superfluos too! I don't really need or want its scaling capabilities.

I watched the BBC's "Magic Flute" HDDVD production a couple of days back and it was better than being in the theater both from audio and video perspectives!

[Nolan B]

This is getting rather confusing! The 1068 provides the same audio decoding as the 1069. It does it through the digital audio input. It simply lacks HDMI. Video is analog using the component video, however as we already know the Xbox 360 does transmit 1080p through component video. Furthermore, all 1080p plasmas deinterlace 1080i into 1080p. The HDDVD movies that include HD audio are decoded by the 1068 into dolby digital+XT into 7.1 surround. Ergo, although HDMI might offer a simpler connection, as far as I can tell, you can get the same results with component video plus a digital audio connection and a 1080p set. When playing HD Audio from HDDVD's the "rear" sound is unmistakeably full spectrum audio distinct from the "surround" channels, the sound is pretty darned spectacular. The only reason I was looking at the 1069 was for the HDMI connections, it would eliminate the unneccesary digital to analog to digital video conversion and thus have a simple fully digital path from source to screen, furthermore, it would make the separate digital audio connection superfluos too! I don't really need or want its scaling capabilities.

I watched the BBC's "Magic Flute" HDDVD production a couple of days back and it was better than being in the theater both from audio and video perspectives!

Unless I read your post wrong... in addition to the 1069 having HDMI and making the connection simple the 1069 can also accept hi rez PCM audio i.e. the player decodes Dobly TrueHD and sends it as PCM audio to the 1069. This allows you to listen to lossless audio.

BTW the xbox 360 does not do 1080p with component...only HDMI or by VGA. If you only have the Xbox 360 you will not get hi rez/lossless audio no matter what.

Any player that decodes TrueHD, DTS MA, DD+, lossless PCM will send the audio as PCM over HDMI to the 1069. The 1069 is not like the 1068 with just HDMI. The HDMI accepts Hi rez PCM, unlike for example the RSX 1057 or RSP 1098 (with HDMI board) which only offers video switching.


are we saying the same thing?

[WI Rotel]

Unless I read your post wrong... in addition to the 1069 having HDMI and making the connection simple the 1069 can also accept hi rez PCM audio i.e. the player decodes Dobly TrueHD and sends it as PCM audio to the 1069. This allows you to listen to lossless audio.

BTW the xbox 360 does not do 1080p with component...only HDMI or by VGA. If you only have the Xbox 360 you will not get hi rez/lossless audio no matter what.

Any player that decodes TrueHD, DTS MA, DD+, lossless PCM will send the audio as PCM over HDMI to the 1069. The 1069 is not like the 1068 with just HDMI. The HDMI accepts Hi rez PCM, unlike for example the RSX 1057 or RSP 1098 (with HDMI board) which only offers video switching.


are we saying the same thing?

PCM can be transmited over any digital audio connection HDMI or not! The audio processor in the 1068 automatically detects the extra info and defaults to dolby digital +XT which is a 7.1 format (I'm pretty sure its not lossless but it is full frequency range). As to the Xbox transmitting 1080p through component video, you'll have to take the fight microsoft, they clearly state that they do (despite the fact that their newest version does include HDMI)!
The truth is that keeping up with all these "new" goodies is a terrible headache and manufacturers have made it murky at best.
I was reading the 1069 manual and it clearly states that 1080p signals are not processed at all they are simply moved trough (which makes perfect sense), however, lesser signals are processed but I'm still not sure if you can bypass them too. The manual states that you are welcome to make multiple connections between the processor and the monitor, which makes me suspicious that the processor will "upgrade" all lesser signals without the ability to bypass the processor's video processing circuit

One point I want to make is.......
As it stands now with the 1068 the sound is unbelievable and the picture on the Elite is by far the best HD I have seen anywhere. Note: That is using component video and digital audio from an Xbox 360.

My huge question is will I truly have any improvement by going all HDMI which entails another Xbox (HDMI) and a 1069. Inquiring minds want to know ??????????

[Nolan B]

PCM can be transmited over any digital audio connection HDMI or not!

I think what you are missing is that multi channel hi rez PCM can not be transmited over optical or coax (only up to 2 channels). You need HDMI to transmit and accept multi channel hi rez PCM. For example you can not listen to SACD or DVD A by simply connecting your source player to your reciever by optical...you need to connect by the analog outputs or HDMI.

The audio processor in the 1068 automatically detects the extra info and defaults to dolby digital +XT which is a 7.1 format (I'm pretty sure its not lossless but it is full frequency range).

the 1069 is only recieving a max of 1.5 mbps through the digital connection (in most cases regular DTS). If you have any HD DVD player connected to the 1068 by either digital coax or optical and select any of the new audio formats (lossless PCM, TrueHD, DTS MA) they will get "downconverted" to DTS or DD (in the case of DTS a max bit rate of 1.5mbps). Keep in mind that many lossless tracks go beyond 4 or 5mbps. Optical and coax simply does not have the ability to transmit hi rez PCM or bitreams the audio formats....only HDMI can.

As to the Xbox transmitting 1080p through component video, you'll have to take the fight microsoft, they clearly state that they do (despite the fact that their newest version does include HDMI)!

correction on my part...after some research i found that all 360s made after a certian date in 2007 can ouput 1080p by component. I am still trying to find some firm evidence either way. Adding HDMI to the elite was 100% (originally) about alowing you to get 1080p.

The truth is that keeping up with all these "new" goodies is a terrible headache and manufacturers have made it murky at best.

100% correct. Its a total mess.

I was reading the 1069 manual and it clearly states that 1080p signals are not processed at all they are simply moved trough (which makes perfect sense), however, lesser signals are processed but I'm still not sure if you can bypass them too. The manual states that you are welcome to make multiple connections between the processor and the monitor, which makes me suspicious that the processor will "upgrade" all lesser signals without the ability to bypass the processor's video processing circuit

You have to install a new board as an upgrade to bypass the saler on the 1069. The is not listed on the manual, but this thread has all the info you need.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28530

My huge question is will I truly have any improvement by going all HDMI which entails another Xbox (HDMI) and a 1069. Inquiring minds want to know ??????????

for audio the answer is 100% yes if you watch a lot of HD DVDs and BDs because as it stands right now you have not been able to experience lossless audio with your current set up. Keep in mind that not Xbox can pass lossless audio by bitstream or PCM so you will have to get a stand alone player in addition the to 1069.

Personally...i think lossless audio can be as big an improvement over regular lossy Dolby Digital as 1080p is over 480p.

You have a great system and it would love to play lossless audio. :T


***i do want to add 1 more thing. If you only support 1 format (HD DVD or BD) you are just as well off to buy a stand alone player which has analog outputs and connect your player to the 1068 that way. If you want to switch over to HDMI and own both HD DVD and BD then the upgrade to a 1069 is well worth it.

[Briz vegas]

Hi,

my main thing is listening (stereo) musik and little movies. I might post pictures of the room....

If this is where your heart lies then the best front speakers you can afford is the way to go, but............

All the gear you have now should do movies with finesse. Incorporating top quality 2 channel could prove expensive as you will want to upgrade more than just your speakers. You have not even mentioned your source CD player in this discussion - you need to think of all the components and links in the chain to get premium 2 channel sound from the likes of the 803 or other 800s. If this is not your thing then I would recommend the advice of the other posters and simply get the best from your existing speakers with carefully chosen and auditioned upgrades.

An issue I am having with my HT recently is that the music in movies is almost too good. I am getting into a movie then the music kicks it and I get distracted from the film by the sound track. :lol:

[Frankster72]

Incorporating top quality 2 channel could prove expensive as you will want to upgrade more than just your speakers.

I know, actually I got 2 appartments. The one at munich was lacking a good av/hifi system at all. So I got a full HD beamer and the XT / Rotel System. In my house at home a got a listening room with unison, dynaudio c1 gear for music. but I'm spending quite a lot time at munich, so I also would like to have a hifi system thats fun to listen to.

You have not even mentioned your source CD player in this discussion

for this system I'm using just a home theater pc. it uses a grafic card with hdmi sound support. this is connected to the 1069. the 1069 got those burr brown d/a converts that are pretty good. maybe i'll do one day a comparison against my unison tube cd player....

- you need to think of all the components and links in the chain to get premium 2 channel sound from the likes of the 803 or other 800s. If this is not your thing then I would recommend the advice of the other posters and simply get the best from your existing speakers with carefully chosen and auditioned upgrades.

when you see my appartment, at a maximum the 803 would fit into. the wall where the speakers are positioned is less when 3m wide. very nice but very expensive would be 2 of the signature diamond speakers. but on the other side. right now it's the wooden ceiling that takes a lot of the sound quality. It might make more sense to first buy some kind of diffuser for the ceiling....

An issue I am having with my HT recently is that the music in movies is almost too good. I am getting into a movie then the music kicks it and I get distracted from the film by the sound track. :lol:

I know what you mean - and I guess your systems sounds far more exciting then mine :-)

BR Frank

[Frankster72]

this is my system. right now the motor screen is missing (ordered) thats why the wall looks so emtpy. lateron the 1077 will go down to the cabinet with the 1069. the black box on top is my home theater pc system...
the white controller belongs to my sonos unit

but as you can see. it would be hard to place an 803 or 804. it would be very close to the back and the side walls

[WI Rotel]

this is my system. right now the motor screen is missing (ordered) thats why the wall looks so emtpy. lateron the 1077 will go down to the cabinet with the 1069. the black box on top is my home theater pc system...
the white controller belongs to my sonos unit

but as you can see. it would be hard to place an 803 or 804. it would be very close to the back and the side walls

Beautiful setup and apartment.
Give the dual PV1's a try! The XT's are simply made for your decor! BTW that is entirely too much toe-in for the XTs your stereo image will suffer. First try with zero toe in and if that is not acceptable toe them in just a very little bit (5 degrees). I also strongly recommend that you find a stout amp for the XT's only you will be amazed at the results. If you have a good local dealer (the one that sold you the speakers is a good place to start, tell him you want to test drive a display 1080 for a few days you will be amazed by the results.There is one more small setup foible, the speakers are inside the wall enclosure. Move them forward a few inches so they are completely out. Since they are so slim you can set them precisely in front of the enclosure side walls

[Frankster72]

hi wi rotel,

thank you! I'm very happy how it looks and sounds.. when I took the pictures I was trying to find the right toe in for the xt4. crossing them before the hear position sound good if you listen on close distance, like sitting on the small thing before the couch. but you are right. it gives a much better liveless athmosphere when setting the toe in to 5 degrees. 0 degrees did not work. but thanks for the tip moving the xt4 a bit further from the walls. I'll try this... also I'm very happy with the setup I found for the pv1. very nice bass support. I played some old ebm music (for e.g. nitzer ebb) amazing :-)
but I really could picture how much a second pv1 would improve the sound. except this it would look nice to have one behind the left speaker.

I'm really not sure with the 1080. my dealer I bought the xt4 is about 300 miles away. so this is no easy task. but - reviews of the 1080 showed that this amp delivers less sound quality when the 1095 or the 1092 for eg. also it seems that the 1077 is almost on 1092 level. but you are right, the high damping factor of the 1080 might be a pic plus on the xt4.
saturday I'll try to visit my dealer and I'll see if I can listen into his showroom to the 1080 compared to the 1092 or the 1077 with the XT4 system...

my other idea is using first a LS cable with higher damping. very good is the monitor black & white 1302. a friend of mine also got connections to b&w and he will ask if they change my xt4's to bi-amping....

have you tried any of the class-D amps with the xt4's?

br,
frank

[goe2112]

Frankster, Schöne Bonsai. Ich glaube diese wochenende, kaufe ich eine. Wie alt ist die?
Also nice set-up
Joe

[WI Rotel]

hi wi rotel,

thank you! I'm very happy how it looks and sounds.. when I took the pictures I was trying to find the right toe in for the xt4. crossing them before the hear position sound good if you listen on close distance, like sitting on the small thing before the couch. but you are right. it gives a much better liveless athmosphere when setting the toe in to 5 degrees. 0 degrees did not work. but thanks for the tip moving the xt4 a bit further from the walls. I'll try this... also I'm very happy with the setup I found for the pv1. very nice bass support. I played some old ebm music (for e.g. nitzer ebb) amazing :-)
but I really could picture how much a second pv1 would improve the sound. except this it would look nice to have one behind the left speaker.

I'm really not sure with the 1080. my dealer I bought the xt4 is about 300 miles away. so this is no easy task. but - reviews of the 1080 showed that this amp delivers less sound quality when the 1095 or the 1092 for eg. also it seems that the 1077 is almost on 1092 level. but you are right, the high damping factor of the 1080 might be a pic plus on the xt4.
saturday I'll try to visit my dealer and I'll see if I can listen into his showroom to the 1080 compared to the 1092 or the 1077 with the XT4 system...

my other idea is using first a LS cable with higher damping. very good is the monitor black & white 1302. a friend of mine also got connections to b&w and he will ask if they change my xt4's to bi-amping....

have you tried any of the class-D amps with the xt4's?

br,
frank

Unfortunately I have not, and truth be said the 1080 vs 1077 camparison is not a fair match either. The 1080 is a much more powerful stereo amp that already has a well established record of excellence, so just on specs alone you would expect better performance. However, I can vouch that the mix of the XT4 and the 1080 is an extraordinarily good one. I'm not implying that your XT's will magically transform into 802's but the mixture of 1080, PV1 and XT4 will comes deliciously close for music and for HT its actually better (than 802's alone) :T !

[Frankster72]

goe:
oh, the bonsai is new - 6 month or so - and a good audio diffuser :-)

wi rotel:
i'm trying to compare on saturday the 1080 against one of the new class d amps with the xt4. i'm quite curious....
bi amping with the xt4 is hard to archieve. hmm we'll see.
which cables are you using with your speakers?

[WI Rotel]

goe:
oh, the bonsai is new - 6 month or so - and a good audio diffuser :-)

wi rotel:
i'm trying to compare on saturday the 1080 against one of the new class d amps with the xt4. i'm quite curious....
bi amping with the xt4 is hard to archieve. hmm we'll see.
which cables are you using with your speakers?

The Xt is not biampable since they have only one set of binding posts, furtheremore, it would be overkill anyway.
Please let me know how your "test" goes, I'm very interested in your impression, the only other person that I know made that exact comparison bought the 1080 on the spot. Make sure you take a selection of music you enjoy plus a disc that will give them a work out!
My cable selection is simple monster cable (the fat kind). I haven't tried others but I'm not a big cable fan. Any decent, fat, multistrand copper wire is "my kind" :W In my long history with audio the only time I heard a big difference with cables was when monster introduced big multistrand conductors in the early 80's. Through the decades I have listened to a myriad other "updates, new and improved, silver etc etc" I have never found them to have any noticeable performance advantage over the simple physical fact tat the "thicker" the conductor the lower the resistance= more "juice" for the speaker with less amp strain thus better sound. "a bigger hose carries more water with less pressure" is true electrically too :W
A law of audiophiledom is if it cost 5 times more than the other guy it must be better (like the Emperors new clothes) Like the reasoning that a turntable can cost 50k DUH, I've got some pills I'll sell you for 10K that are guaranteed to enhace your maleness :rofl:

[Frankster72]

Hi,

I'm back, with a lot of new impression. I especially made an audiophil test cd for today...

first we stopped by a friend who is using an 804s with a thorens pre/power amp. sounded quite impressing. a little deep bass was missing (I'm spoiled by the pv1) and like fast double base drum sounds the speaker could not follow properly...
mids of the 804s where excellent - that impressed me most.
the tweeter seem to be same same used in the xt4. so where was also a lack of detail and speed...

Also I noticed the setup sounded a bit steril. The liveless feeling I missed sometimes. Esp. guitar based live songs had more athmosphere with the xt4.
but all in all the 804s is by the excellent mids and the better default base superior the xt4.

next test was at the hifi studio the xt4 setup with pv1 running at a 1095 (they didn't hat the 1080 there).
Hmm, sound was very very disappointing compared to the previous hered 804s. I really got the feeling that my xt4 home system with 1077 amp could do the job far better... there seem dynamic and detail missing.
then we applied the 1092 to the setup....
wow - what a difference. way more detail, much much more control of the base and way more dynamic. also mids came clearer. but still far from the level the 804s showed up with.
anyway, with the 1092 amp, the difference to the 804s seem not so big anymore. just the mids and the upper base are way better with the 804s. therefor the liveless and athmosphere where better with the xt4 / pv1.

a third test was with the 1069 receiver. worse... sounded quite boring compared to the other too amplifiers. no good choice for the xt4.

also the show room got some prepartions (like akustic ceeling etc.) I really got the feeling my setup at home sounded better then the one in the shop. sound charactor of the 1077 seem to be very close to the 1092.


conclusion:
class-D amps sound way better on the xt4 then amps like the 1095.
higher damping factors have more effect on speakers with big chassis then on speakers with small ones like the xt4. so the damping factor doesn't do the sound...
b&w tested already bi-wiring on the xt4 but with no significant improvement.
the 804s isn't improvement enough over the xt4 + pv1. therefor a real improvement would might be the 803d

also I compared the 804s against my little dynaudio C1 with a small unison unico amp. The C1 beats the 804s in everything except maximum volume. way more detail, extremly dynamic. increadible liveless. extreme broad varyity of sound colors. better positioning and the biggest plus. voices sounded way more natural.... maybe not as plastic the 804s could do sometimes...

[WI Rotel]

Hi,

I'm back, with a lot of new impression. I especially made an audiophil test cd for today...

first we stopped by a friend who is using an 804s with a thorens pre/power amp. sounded quite impressing. a little deep bass was missing (I'm spoiled by the pv1) and like fast double base drum sounds the speaker could not follow properly...
mids of the 804s where excellent - that impressed me most.
the tweeter seem to be same same used in the xt4. so where was also a lack of detail and speed...

Also I noticed the setup sounded a bit steril. The liveless feeling I missed sometimes. Esp. guitar based live songs had more athmosphere with the xt4.
but all in all the 804s is by the excellent mids and the better default base superior the xt4.

next test was at the hifi studio the xt4 setup with pv1 running at a 1095 (they didn't hat the 1080 there).
Hmm, sound was very very disappointing compared to the previous hered 804s. I really got the feeling that my xt4 home system with 1077 amp could do the job far better... there seem dynamic and detail missing.
then we applied the 1092 to the setup....
wow - what a difference. way more detail, much much more control of the base and way more dynamic. also mids came clearer. but still far from the level the 804s showed up with.
anyway, with the 1092 amp, the difference to the 804s seem not so big anymore. just the mids and the upper base are way better with the 804s. therefor the liveless and athmosphere where better with the xt4 / pv1.

a third test was with the 1069 receiver. worse... sounded quite boring compared to the other too amplifiers. no good choice for the xt4.

also the show room got some prepartions (like akustic ceeling etc.) I really got the feeling my setup at home sounded better then the one in the shop. sound charactor of the 1077 seem to be very close to the 1092.


conclusion:
class-D amps sound way better on the xt4 then amps like the 1095.
higher damping factors have more effect on speakers with big chassis then on speakers with small ones like the xt4. so the damping factor doesn't do the sound...
b&w tested already bi-wiring on the xt4 but with no significant improvement.
the 804s isn't improvement enough over the xt4 + pv1. therefor a real improvement would might be the 803d

also I compared the 804s against my little dynaudio C1 with a small unison unico amp. The C1 beats the 804s in everything except maximum volume. way more detail, extremly dynamic. increadible liveless. extreme broad varyity of sound colors. better positioning and the biggest plus. voices sounded way more natural.... maybe not as plastic the 804s could do sometimes...

Don't be confused the reason the XT sounded a lot better with the 1092 is the same reason it would have sounded better with the 1080, gobs of additional power dedicated just to them! the 1092 has 500Watts! The 1080 would provide similar expirience since though it is RMS rating is lower its relative headroom is just as high. The 1095 is feeding too many mouths thus although it can drive the XT4 very well even when hooked up with 3 other speakers, it will loose finnese in comparison. Regardless, the point has been established, a good stout amplifier will provide your XT's the juice they need to shine, the 1077 is a little short to drive your entire 5.1 system. :T Plus it will be exponentially cheaper than entire new 800 based system :W. With the money you save you can buy the amp plus 2 additional XT2's and have a complete 7.1 system (that's what I did!), 7.1 is a significant HT upgrade to 5.1.

[Briz vegas]

..........also I compared the 804s against my little dynaudio C1 with a small unison unico amp. The C1 beats the 804s in everything except maximum volume. way more detail, extremly dynamic. increadible liveless. extreme broad varyity of sound colors. better positioning and the biggest plus. voices sounded way more natural.... maybe not as plastic the 804s could do sometimes...

.......its Kevlar, not plastic :roll:

I suspect that Unison system was not optimal at feeding the 804s. It may not better the Dyn but it certainly doesn't sound plastic (well actually mine do a little but that is my current cables which give a slightly hard sound in comparison to their higher end siblings which sound georgeous... which I am saving for of course)

ps hard my not be the right word but the sound is not as organic and finely detailed as I have heard it. Its a bit like when you look at a flat surface with a microscope and see its true fine texture - the FST can reveal that detail if the information is provided.

[Frankster72]

well as mentioned above it was no 1:1 comparison. the 804s show where done at home at a friends house. first the room wasn't optimal (reflections). second listening distance here have been 4-5 meters.
also the thorens amp does not seem to be such a good match to the 805s. Made the sound quite analytic... Esp. Voices didn't sound natural at all.

at home I got 2m listening distance and I spended a lot of time into a perfect setup (computer calced speaker positions), special fuse for the hifi equip, silver power cables and so on...
and the unison amp / cd is tube gear. so everything is totally different.

and for for impressions I heard many details with the C1 / Unison combo and the strings of guitar felt to have more tension when with the 804s

@wi rotel
no I don't think so. It is not a matter of pure power by amping the xt4. I also heard before a 1072 with the xt4 and I now my impression from the 1077. And then you compare those with the 1092 where is no significant sound difference. But the difference is huge if you compare those amps with the 1095.
maybe you got the choice to hook up a class-D amp to your system. I would be very interested to your impressions

[WI Rotel]

well as mentioned above it was no 1:1 comparison. the 804s show where done at home at a friends house. first the room wasn't optimal (reflections). second listening distance here have been 4-5 meters.
also the thorens amp does not seem to be such a good match to the 805s. Made the sound quite analytic... Esp. Voices didn't sound natural at all.

at home I got 2m listening distance and I spended a lot of time into a perfect setup (computer calced speaker positions), special fuse for the hifi equip, silver power cables and so on...
and the unison amp / cd is tube gear. so everything is totally different.

and for for impressions I heard many details with the C1 / Unison combo and the strings of guitar felt to have more tension when with the 804s

@wi rotel
no I don't think so. It is not a matter of pure power by amping the xt4. I also heard before a 1072 with the xt4 and I now my impression from the 1077. And then you compare those with the 1092 where is no significant sound difference. But the difference is huge if you compare those amps with the 1095.
maybe you got the choice to hook up a class-D amp to your system. I would be very interested to your impressions

I'd rather have an appendectomy Connecting anything in my system is a major headache since all my rack is actually IN the wall, everytime I swap anything its a 3 hour job!
BTW check this previous post:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=367975&postcount=19

[Frankster72]

well - would have been better to bring my 1077 into the shop. but this is also a 2h job getting this thing out of the installation...

ok, this means when the 1077 is equal to the 1072 and the 1080 is better then the 1095 and the 1072. also the 1092 is better when the 1095. the only thing we do not know finally is if the 1092 is superior the 1080 driving the xt4 or not....

[cug]

ok, this means when the 1077 is equal to the 1072 and the 1080 is better then the 1095 and the 1072. also the 1092 is better when the 1095. the only thing we do not know finally is if the 1092 is superior the 1080 driving the xt4 or not....

Actually, we don't know anything of the above. We know a little bit about your preferences, that's about it. The next person might see that differently.

But, as always: For you, only your own perception is important. So, for you it might be better. For another person it might just be different, for the third it might be the other way around. Again, hear for yourself and make up our mind.

[Frankster72]

Actually, we don't know anything of the above. We know a little bit about your preferences, that's about it. The next person might see that differently.

cug,

with all respect, I think what you wrote is too easy. true for some detail. one person loves a clear bass way more then perfect reproduction of female voices....

but magazines, and also I did comparisons over a broad spectrum of different kind of music. and also other ppl who listened the presentation had the same impression.

For e.g. the comparison XT4 driven by 1095, 1069, 1092 showed up very huge differences. Means also if you just walk by without concentrated listening you would hear significant differences...

[cug]

but magazines, and also I did comparisons over a broad spectrum of different kind of music. and also other ppl who listened the presentation had the same impression.

I don't give a **** on magazine reviews. I hear for myself. My perception, my taste, my preferences, my hearing abilities are different from yours.

For e.g. the comparison XT4 driven by 1095, 1069, 1092 showed up very huge differences. Means also if you just walk by without concentrated listening you would hear significant differences...

Yeah, you name it. Difference. Between a couple of high quality amplifiers, the difference is a matter of taste whether to like it or not. If the amplifier is not sufficient driving a pair of speakers or has real faults - okay, than there is a clear better or worse.

Look around here how many people prefer the sound of the old line - and others prefer the sound of the new line. A lot of these perceptions is normally because the THINK they don't like Class D or they like it better because it has less idle consumption or ...

Yes, you're right - there is always a better amplifier, but between systems on more or less the same quality level it is just a matter of taste. Maybe there is a better one: for your ears. Maybe I'd like the 1095 better, not that I have listened to that one. Who knows?

[Frankster72]

there a 2 things:

you can like or dislike something - this is personal taste!
but you can also can distinglish better / worse - more detail offert or less. more noise heard or less. so we also have the ability to rate something better and still decice us for thinks that our taste likes more....

but anyway, this thread here is not about taste. for eg. then you are a jury member for a miss election. the best looking girl should not have to be your type to receive full points :-)

[WI Rotel]

Actually, we don't know anything of the above. We know a little bit about your preferences, that's about it. The next person might see that differently.

But, as always: For you, only your own perception is important. So, for you it might be better. For another person it might just be different, for the third it might be the other way around. Again, hear for yourself and make up our mind.

Well put and all true, in the end your ears should be your guide.

One thing to keep in mind when comparing different equipment is that anything that sounds louder will invariably sound better. Thus when doing A-B comparisons all variables should be equal cables, connections and most of all sound level, it might even be helpful to drag a sound meter around to ensure that loudness is the same.
One point that I had noticed about the 1095 when I was driving the XT4's was that sound quality changed with power output, if listened at low volume the amp sounded laidback and a little sterile, however, once you got the juice flowing it sounds dynamic and with what appears limitless dynamic reserves. The 1080 doesn't have that "split personality". Since I'm using the 1095 for my for the XT2's and the XTC it shows no quibbles since the power available for those is much more than ample. The 1095 can drive 4 XT2's and an XTC at ear splitting levels all day without breaking a sweat and crystal clear sound.

[Frankster72]

One thing to keep in mind when comparing different equipment is that anything that sounds louder will invariably sound better. Thus when doing A-B comparisons all variables should be equal cables, connections and most of all sound level, it might even be helpful to drag a sound meter around to ensure that loudness is the same.

well, I changed my mind to thoose a/b comparisons. when I started with hifi, I did many a/b's. Listening to one song and then switching something or changing parts...

I personally think this will just give you hints on finetuning your equipment. but when you are about to buy a new system. I think it is better to just listen to one system one hour or two and you will get a good impression.
then step forward to the next system....
because this decision is aber taste and likes - you have to live with those equipment... so your decision follow other criteria...

with time you are also able to figure out influcences of the room are figure out easily a wrong setup sub etc...

anyway, I don't espect that someone will share my opinion...

lg,
frank

[WI Rotel]

well, I changed my mind to thoose a/b comparisons. when I started with hifi, I did many a/b's. Listening to one song and then switching something or changing parts...

I personally think this will just give you hints on finetuning your equipment. but when you are about to buy a new system. I think it is better to just listen to one system one hour or two and you will get a good impression.
then step forward to the next system....
because this decision is aber taste and likes - you have to live with those equipment... so your decision follow other criteria...

with time you are also able to figure out influcences of the room are figure out easily a wrong setup sub etc...

anyway, I don't espect that someone will share my opinion...

lg,
frank

Frank don't take it wrong I'm certainly not trying to diss you at all. If to you the class D amp is the way to got by all means go with what you like best. :T

Going back to the original question regardless of what amp to use, the XT4 will benefit very significantly by having its own amp due to its very current hungry nature, most multichannel amps (except some very pricy indeed ones) will have trouble doing them justice in a multispeaker arrangement.
In your instance instead of buying some 8's (unless they are 802 or above, but even then the mix and match of designs would be horrible) simply buy a good stout stereo amp (whichever you like best) for your XT4's and leave you 1077 for your surrounds. The results will be amazingly good, If you buy and extra PV1 also your end product will simply be spectacular and pretty much second to none uless you spend 3 or four times more money :W

[Frankster72]

well you know, it is sometimes hard to get sastisfied :-)
the only speaker that would match my appartment and also the xt4 series would be the signature diamond in black. :-)

I could also drive them using bi-amping.
but I will see. Actually the system right now is quite good. A second pv1 would also be a nice option...

lg,
frank

[WI Rotel]

well you know, it is sometimes hard to get sastisfied :-)
the only speaker that would match my appartment and also the xt4 series would be the signature diamond in black. :-)

I could also drive them using bi-amping.
but I will see. Actually the system right now is quite good. A second pv1 would also be a nice option...

lg,
frank

Let me know how it goes! Another option we haven't discussed and that may be more appropriate when you get the second sub, is to simply set the Xt4's in your processor to small thus sending most of the low frequency info to the subs. Low frequency reproduction is the main cause of XT4 current "hunger" setting them to small and letting 2 Pv1's take care of the lower registers could make the need for another amp irrelevant :W

Good luck!
:dancenana:

[Frankster72]

very good point wi rotel!!!!

have you setup your xt4 that way?

[WI Rotel]

very good point wi rotel!!!!

have you setup your xt4 that way?

Actually I don't (I have that extra amp) but I do have the crossover set at 60 for them. The XT2's I have set at 80Hz and small. On one occasion I was using a test CD with tones around 20Hz I did get the XT4 woofers to distort due to way too much power (very scary), after that episode I set them at 60. Suprisingly, if you get enthusiastic (way loud) the mid drivers actually do move too!

[Frankster72]

thanks for the info,
i'll try out the settings when I get my (hopefully) patched rsp-1069 back

[ashbury415]

cug,

For e.g. the comparison XT4 driven by 1095, 1069, 1092 showed up very huge differences. Means also if you just walk by without concentrated listening you would hear significant differences...

I have to agree with your comparison. When I got my XT4s and PV1, I went to my dealer several times to compare. I ended up driving the XT4s with Rotel 1092 with a 1082 Pre-amp. The sound is very balanced; the system produces controlled base, great mid and extreme clarity at higher note. I can't tell you how much I enjoy listening to the new system from classical, jazz, big band to pop and rock! Radiohead at any volume is a pure joy out of these XT4s. Only a few moments I wish the base would be bigger; however, I wouldn't trade it for the balanced and tight sound. PV1 responses to music so fast; it's a new experience. The sound field/stage for classical also is better on 1092 vs 1095 when I did my comparison. 1092 and XT4 rock!