B&W 804s distortion?

[Nik Nak]

Please excuse my english, it's not my first language.

I've been experiencing distortion in the upper mid range on my 804s. It's mostly provoces on recordings of polyphinic females voices (lower soprano) on polyphonic brass - espeacially on louder levels. I hear it in top of the line recordings (eg. Herreweghes Bach b-minor mass on Harmonia Mundi), so it's not due to bad records.

Anyone with similar experiences?

Cheers
Nik

[dan87951]

How loud do you have it? Are you blasting it? What equipment are you using?

[Nik Nak]

It's not espacialy loud, only like 30% of max volume (normal listening volume for orchestral music in my living room).

It's powered by Lyngdorfs SDAI2175 and CD-1 with Tara Labs interconnect and speaker cables.

How loud do you have it? Are you blasting it? What equipment are you using?

[dknightd]

Has it always been there?
My guess would be reflections from wall, ceiling, or floor.

[cug]

I've been experiencing distortion in the upper mid range on my 804s. It's mostly provoces on recordings of polyphinic females voices (lower soprano) on polyphonic brass - espeacially on louder levels. I hear it in top of the line recordings (eg. Herreweghes Bach b-minor mass on Harmonia Mundi), so it's not due to bad records.

Is that new? Did you hear it before? If no, did you change anything in your room setup (like a new glass table, removed window curtains? Something like that?

I have no problem with that - but I can't compare as I don't know the recording you were referring too. I listen mostly to jazz with female voices (Diana Krall, Sophie Milman, Queen Latifah, ...) but I also have some really powerful choir recordings from Mozart and Bach.

No problems at all with that.

[Nik Nak]

Thanks for your replies.

It has (as far as I have noticed) been there always (only had the 804s for 3 months). I haven't changed anything in the room, but it is a "harsh" room with lots of naked walls.

I only hear it with recordings where theres a lot of "indirect sound" eg. choir i a church, and only in the upper mid range.

Theres no problems with playing jazz trios, small scale orchestral music or solo voices no matter how loud I turn it up. - It just sounds great.

Guess I'll have to take some of the problematic records down to the shop and try them on their 804s.

[cug]

Guess I'll have to take some of the problematic records down to the shop and try them on their 804s.

Yeah, might be a good idea. If the 804s are okay, they shouldn't make any bad noises. Maybe some not as good as other speakers, but definitely no bad ones.

But, and that is a big but, they are incredibly revealing and merciless with the rest of the chain and the source itself (CD, amp, player, ...). For example, I can't listen to the Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" 20th anniversary edition (SA-CD), as it has a high pitched noise in the songs "Brothers in Arms" and "Why worry" - it just hurts my ears. The original CD doesn't have that problem and another standard CD (newer than mine, which is from 86, but I don't know how new) doesn't have it too.

So, there are a couple of options where the sound might come from.

What you also could try is some temporary room treatment - put a mattress here, some blankets there, something soft in the corners and try again ...

Good luck,
Guido

[Nik Nak]

Havn't had a chance to go to the dealer yet, but I've narrowed down the problem a bit.

The distortion (in the form of a high frequency schratching noise) is not in the high mid-range, but actually coming from the tweeter. I've tried placing the speaker in a tent made from carpets - and it's still there - so it is not cauesed by reflections from the room.

It's present in both speakers and doesn't change when i swap channels. It's present in every recording I've tried - not only choir and piano - but it's most easily heard in recordings with high frequency soft sounds recorded in large rooms (eg. female voices in churches or piano in empty hall).

Is it possible that something is wrong with the speaker design? - Or is it possible that the speaker and my Lyngdorf amp. just doesn't match?

Have anybody else had problems with distorting tweeters on their B&Ws?

:-)
Nik

[cug]

Is it possible that something is wrong with the speaker design?

I doubt that. If there were "scratching noises by design" more people / reviews would mentioned that.

Or is it possible that the speaker and my Lyngdorf amp. just doesn't match?

Or the cd player or the cables - I'm from the group that doesn't "believe" in cable despite the obvious shortcomings of cheap cables, but if one of your cables is not sufficient (diameter, shielding), it is just simple physics that you might get bad noises.

I'd try going to a dealer and listening with your CDs to a pair of 804S. If you hear the scratching - see the next ear specialist ... ;-) If not, switch out parts of your setup, use a different source and amp, maybe ask a friend or your dealer whether they can help with that.

If that doesn't help, check the cables. I'd test a different interconnect first. Make sure, your interconnects are shielded.

Do you have any wireless devices near your audio setup? Something that might induce noise into the system? Turn it off and check again.

Have anybody else had problems with distorting tweeters on their B&Ws?

Nope. Not with female voices in large rooms (I actually love smooth Jazz with female singers), not with choirs, not with instruments. Not with anything but bad recordings.

[Briz vegas]

I will say no also. That same tweeter and crossover are used in the 805S, 804s and 803s. I am pretty sure we can eliminate design from the equation

I am tempted to put it down to room/partnering equipement but we like to be helpful round here so do you have a common example we can all try - like Dark side of the Moon or similar. Point out exactly what you are hearing in what part of a track.

Re highs - where is your seating position relative to rear walls. I have a shelf just behind me and as a DIY solution I put an old wool blanket over it when listening. It improves clarity and highs significantly. I also found that a good quality after market power cord on my power amp turned high hats from a ssshhh sound to a Tsh Tsh Tsh sound - so much better that I did not get my speaker cable upgrade until I could also afford the power cable also.

I will say that listening to Miles Davis Kinda Blue - it has a annoying high distortion-y sound in parts, but I have heard that on every system I have tried it on - ranging from $4k to over $100k. I think it is brushes on a drum but is is definitely the recording and I still enjoy the CD.

[Nik Nak]

Thanks again for your replies.

Tried different cables, different CD-player, nothing helped.

Went to the dealer with my amp and some CDs where the problem is very easy to hear.

On their 804s with my own amp there was no distortion or scratching. Guess my tweeters or something in the filter in my speakers are broken. Seems strange given their young age and the fact that I've never played them very loud. I'll take them to the dealer and have them check them out.

Cheers
Nik

[dknightd]

Strange that both of them would be bad. Anyway, glad you are getting it taken of.

[RobP]

Is this only happening on one speaker?, if so simply switch the speaker leads from right to left and see if the problem still exist in the speaker, if it does, then you have a bad voice coil on the tweeter. Piano recordings seem to highlight this the best.

[Briz vegas]

Just in case they find that the speakers are fine..................

I was playing with my setup last week. I took the good power cord off the amp and put it on the CD player. This helped the CD player (source first principle) but it made the sound overall thinner, harsher and brighter as the amp was left struggling. I left it like this for a few days (I liked the improvement to the CD player) before going back to my old configuration with the aftermarket cord on the amp. It was only then that I really appreciated how much it helped - smoother, fuller and suddenly my foot was tapping again (a habit I picked up after getting my cables late last year). I already knew this but my experiment just confirmed that I need a second expensive aftermarket cord (and yes I have heard my system with two cords)

Point of my story, if they find nothing wrong with the speakers try and borrow your dealers best power cord and run it to your amp. In my system at least it makes a really significant difference to the sound (check my profile if you are curious about what I am using I would suggest trying CAT cables but I don't think they do a power cord)

[crazymikie]

I've noticed something similar with my 683s. There is a buzzing coming from one of the speakers which is highlighted by soprano voices and piano. I used the same CDs to audition the speakers from the dealer, so I don't believe it is the recording.

I tried running a frequency sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz and don't hear the buzzing. If it was a bad voice coil, would that show up during the frequency sweep as well?


Thanks!
Mike

[Nik Nak]

Had the dealer look at them, he said he thought both tweeters were broken.
He thought it might be due to playing too loud or using a distorting amp - but I don't play loud and use a Lyngdorf (similar to Tact) amp, and they hardly distort at all even at high levels).
He ordered two new tweeters and will take the old ones apart in a few days -he says he will be able to tell if they broke because of overloading - if not, they will be covered by the warranty.

Anyone who knows how much it would take to blow 800s series tweeters by playing too loud? - Or any ideas of what else (failure in other parts of system) could cause them to fail?

Nik

[Nik Nak]

Problem solved. Both tweeters were broke because of overloading. Both are now changed and my 804s's are now singing again. Got the Lyngdorf TADI2200R amp today. - Now the 804s's are powered my this baby, source (drive only) is Lyngdorf CD-1. This combo (IMO) is as close as you can get to perfection for 10.000 Euros.

And now - back to Bach (b-minor mass with Herreweghe/Harmonia Mundi) and a bottle of Glenlivet to celebrate.


Nik

[cug]

Out of interest: what is the cost for that repair?

And: good, you found the issue - sad that the tweeters were blown, but you don't sound too depressed, so it seems it was a managable damage ... enjoy these great speakers!

cug, having only 60W/pc too ...

[Nik Nak]

Cost of tweeters was around 200 Euros each, dealer changed them for me at no extra cost.

Not to depressed about the cost - drowned it in the cost of the TDAI2200R 8O

Cheers
Nik

[cug]

Cost of tweeters was around 200 Euros each, dealer changed them for me at no extra cost.

At least that ...

Not to depressed about the cost - drowned it in the cost of the TDAI2200R

Guess so. You think it was from the amp clipping and sending a too much
distorted signal and so you got a more powerful amp so it clips later?