How Come there Are Some Many 800D/801D/802D's?

[arcam_boy]

Hi,

I don't mean to upset anyone or cause offence but how come there are so many people in America who can have a full blown Nautilus/800d/801d/802d set up. I am a member of a very very big av forum in the UK (1 million members) and one person on there has some 802D's with the rest having much lower down the range speakers.

Are us brits poor?

Are B&W speakers in America cheaper?

Is there plenty of finance available in the US?

Thanks

[Ted]

That's an interesting question, which I do not have an answer. I have a "great" job, but there's no way I could afford 803D or above, especially when you include the electronics to help them sound their best (Classe, Mac, etc).

Perhaps, it is because I have children, but I certainly am not the only one. I won't go in debt for equipment, so do others use credit cards or financing? Audio is not my only interest, so I spend money in other places too, perhaps that is why? I'm too young, and my time hasn't come for these luxuries in life yet...

I'm not complaining one bit, I am happy for those that can afford more and I have no need to keep up with the Aldo's of the world. :W I'm just curious as well.

[btf1980]

Hi,

I don't mean to upset anyone or cause offence but how come there are so many people in America who can have a full blown Nautilus/800d/801d/802d set up. I am a member of a very very big av forum in the UK (1 million members) and one person on there has some 802D's with the rest having much lower down the range speakers.

Are us brits poor?

Are B&W speakers in America cheaper?

Is there plenty of finance available in the US?

Thanks

B&W Speakers are more expensive in Europe, but it's not like they are inexpensive here either.

3 reasons I think are....

1 - Larger population in the U.S, so just by the numbers game, by default you will have more audiophiles.

2 - Availability. I'm in NYC, and hell, there are quite a bit of B&W dealers here. You certainly have many options.

3 - Some people just manage money better. You'll be surprised how much you can save by not boozing it up at pubs and just being wasteful with cash in general. I know people who spend an average of $10 on starbucks coffee everyday. Imagine if they didn't do that for a year? You could get a used pair of 804s and have quite a bit of change left over.


Also, just because someone has an expensive set-up doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things. You aren't seeing every facet of their life. For all you know, they could be knee deep in debt, living check to check and all they have is kick ass audio. Doesn't mean much when you are living in a rental and have little to no assets. Americans have the highest debt in the world because alot of people have a buy it now mentality. Quite a few people just charge it up on their credit card, use their gear for a few years...sell it on audiogon, pay the balance on their card with the quick sale, upgrade, rinse and repeat.

[Mark-n-b]

There are lots of reasons why this may appear to be the case. I think that you might be surprised how many people do own them in the UK. For what it is worth, I am a member of the forum that you speak of, and I live in the UK, and I am buying 2×800 “D” series next week.

Also remember that the price of living appears to be cheaper in the US, the houses are generally bigger which means that the bigger style speakers are not overwhelming the room – we have tiny houses in the UK that have very small front rooms.

Another thing about us brits that I have learned is that we tend to not buy things that others may feel to be excessive. We tend to like to conform to what is not seem as out of the ordinary – me spending £15,000 on just the processor, amp and 2 speakers is seen by everyone I know as excessive and unnecessary. It’s a good job that I do not care what anyone else thinks! :twisted:

[Race Car Driver]

3 - Some people just manage money better. You'll be surprised how much you can save by not boozing it up at pubs and just being wasteful with cash in general. I know people who spend an average of $10 on starbucks coffee everyday. Imagine if they didn't do that for a year? You could get a used pair of 804s and have quite a bit of change left over.

I guess I am in that boat. I dont make a whole lot of money, but decent. However as a single guy (a plus) and a home owner (a negative) I dont have a whole lot extra to spend every month.

However, I dont smoke ($$) I dont go out drinking every weekend ($$) I dont go to the mall ($$) I dont by a carabue coffee downstairs at work every day for 5$ ($$) I dont have a girl that spends my money for me ($$$$$$$)

I guess I am kind of a loser :lol:

Oh well.

But on a serious note, I refuse to pay retail, I wont buy new, I wait for good deals. When I find them I jump on them. :T I can thank my thrifty mom for that. Growing up with no money taught me alot.

[sikoniko]

It all depends on priorities. I drive a '92 honda civic that is paid off and I sacrifice annual vacations for the time being to fund my system. It would be nice if technology would slow down so I could catch up and get back to vacations... I think it is slowing down though.

my system is my relaxation. That, and I like what I do, so I don't feel the need to go on vacations from work. I think the investment is worth it.

I've always traded up. I started small (600's series 1) and always made sure I got decent trade-in value for my stuff. I've also defined my priority (2 channel), and focused on making upgrades in that area first. No way I could have built this system in one shot. I acquired my desired speakers first, then began to upgrade my electronics. My system is built around N802's. I love the diamonds, but I have decided that I will skip this generation. It will allow me to upgrade my electronics where they need to be (I still have a $300 Parasound amp power my rears instead of a classe ca-2100, which would synergize my system), as well as enjoy the fantastic system I have already!

All-in-all, I've been building my system over the last 5 years, and there are still upgrades to make (classe SSP-800, CA-2100, etc...)

[Mark-n-b]

It all depends on priorities. I drive a '92 honda civic that is paid off and I sacrifice annual vacations for the time being to fund my system. It would be nice if technology would slow down so I could catch up and get back to vacations... I think it is slowing down though.

my system is my relaxation. That, and I like what I do, so I don't feel the need to go on vacations from work. I think the investment is worth it.

I've always traded up. I started small (600's series 1) and always made sure I got decent trade-in value for my stuff. I've also defined my priority (2 channel), and focused on making upgrades in that area first. No way I could have built this system in one shot. I acquired my desired speakers first, then began to upgrade my electronics. My system is built around N802's. I love the diamonds, but I have decided that I will skip this generation. It will allow me to upgrade my electronics where they need to be (I still have a $300 Parasound amp power my rears instead of a classe ca-2100, which would synergize my system), as well as enjoy the fantastic system I have already!

All-in-all, I've been building my system over the last 5 years, and there are still upgrades to make (classe SSP-800, CA-2100, etc...)

Yeah this is an excellent point - sometimes some really good things can come up second-hand - which is also a great way of working your way up to the top. I for one, don't mind used gear as long as it is very good quality.

[arcam_boy]

yep some 2nd hand stuff can be excellent although my current system consists of all all new equipment. theres a few things i'd like to import from america but its normally only shipping to the USA :cry:

[KRC]

At what point though is it a status symbol. Is it like saying I have a Porche 911 GT2 versus what ever gets you to work. If you enjoy what you have or where you want to be versus where you think you should be. Is being an audiophile the nth degree of materialism. The other day I looked at the high end systems depicted on Audiogon and wondered "My God, how did they afford this stuff". In Canada we do not have the same mortgage problems as in the US and the smell in the air of a recession but money is tight. Would I rather get that $1000. dollar interconnect or make an extra payment to principal on my mortgage? This is an interesting discussion point brought up.

Kevin

[btf1980]

At what point though is it a status symbol. Is it like saying I have a Porche 911 GT2 versus what ever gets you to work. If you enjoy what you have or where you want to be versus where you think you should be. Is being an audiophile the nth degree of materialism. The other day I looked at the high end systems depicted on Audiogon and wondered "My God, how did they afford this stuff". In Canada we do not have the same mortgage problems as in the US and the smell in the air of a recession but money is tight. Would I rather get that $1000. dollar interconnect or make an extra payment to principal on my mortgage? This is an interesting discussion point brought up.

Kevin

I think for many people, it's just the love and appreciation of music that leads them down this path. Most people did not start out with 800 series speakers. If you did, then I don't think you would really be able to appreciate the magnitude of such fine speakers. Filet mignon is great, but the guy who eat ground beef for years will be able to appreciate it more than the guy who has eaten filet mignon all his life. It's an upgrade process for most people, and it's not necessarily where you end up, it's the journey along the way.

That said, and this is only my opinion, i'm sure many might disagree, but I think after a certain price point, there is a law of diminishing returns. That pricepoint is subjective, it depends on what you are willing to spend and how much you have, but if you can afford it, then more power to you.

I think another problem with many in the audiophile community is that many just forget the point of this hobby entirely. I think too many people spend more time bickering back and forth about gear, and upgrading than listening to music. That is a pity. They must be miserable. It's all about the music, well it should be.

Think back to when you were young and could not afford anything hi end. Did you enjoy the music any less? I sure didn't. When I was 14, all I had was a crappy AIWA cd disc changer, and I loved it. In fact, I kind of liked it better that way because my appreciation for music was genuine and pure. I didn't worry about soundstage, highs, lows etc. My ignorance of that just let me enjoy music for what it is.

I have alot more respect for a true music fan doing the best he can with what he has, than some guy who just has alot of disposable income and goes out to buy the most expensive gear he can buy, just because he can. He's no audiophile, he's just a poser with deep pockets. No different than the guy who buys a Porsche who has no understanding or liking of automobiles, he just bought it because it says "Porsche" on the bumper. These guys are out there, and you can tell who they are because although they have the gear, their set-ups are usually a mess. Bad speaker placement, hardwood floors with no carpets to at least soften the reflections, a room that is awful acoustically etc. A less expensive set-up that is done properly would sound leaps better than what they have which defeats the purpose of such expensive gear.

So, buy whatever you can afford, whether it's the 600 series or Snails. Let us not forget that ultimately it is about the music first, and not the equipment. I listen to music, not equipment. They are simply tools of transport. 8)

[RebelMan]

It's a hobby for me and hobbies are expensive. I have many interests but I can only really afford one of them. The rest I enjoy through others or on the cheap. My neighbor likes to golf, one friend is into street bikes, another is into classic hot rods, another into water craft and others into traveling. I can appreciate their interests and enjoy through them and with them the time spent but I would never spend $5K on clubs, $15K on a bike, $60K on a racing kit, $140K for a boat nor $4-5K annually on vacations that you'll never get any tangible return on, you can't sell your vacation back once you have used it. Once the money is blown it's gone!

It's a matter of priorites and if you are choosy about where to spend your money (I don't smoke, drink or do drugs either) then there is nothing excessive about it. My priorities are and have been for nearly 20 years AV. However, if I wanted to have the best of everything then that would be going over the top on my salary, I have a family to take care of too. Of course when you are married more compromises need to be made so when I am not improving our system I am improving our home.

[RebelMan]

I think for many people, it's just the love and appreciation of music that leads them down this path. Most people did not start out with 800 series speakers. If you did, then I don't think you would really be able to appreciate the magnitude of such fine speakers. Filet mignon is great, but the guy who eat ground beef for years will be able to appreciate it more than the guy who has eaten filet mignon all his life. It's an upgrade process for most people, and it's not necessarily where you end up, it's the journey along the way.

You make some good points. I have never considered myself to be an audiophile nor a videophile but rather a lover of music and the movies. My first real hi-fi system included a pair of DM110i's, and I loved them. Today my system has evolved quite a bit to include a pair of 800D but I love my $250 iPod just the same. It might seem counter intuitive at first but there is a rational for the disparancy, that would be in my expectations. I don't expect my iPod to sound anything like my 800D's only to make me feel good when I am doing something active. When I switch gears to the 800D's my expectations change in direct proportion. I still enjoy the music equally but I can appreciated it more on my 800D than I can on my iPod. So for me it has alway's been about the music, and getting the most out of it from all of its mechanisms. :B

That said, and this is only my opinion, i'm sure many might disagree, but I think after a certain price point, there is a law of diminishing returns. That pricepoint is subjective, it depends on what you are willing to spend and how much you have, but if you can afford it, then more power to you.

In some ways this is true until you stumble across something that really surprizes you, like the MBL 101 X-Tremes.

[Briz vegas]

How about a poll - what B&Ws do you own. Also, I think the owners of more modest gear tend to read rather than post.

Even a pair of 685s are a great pair of speakers.

I think I once posted on this site that I would never get 800 series - well I joined that club but 802D would require a lotto win for me to consider them.

I also read and occasionally post on the Naim forum. Its interesting how guys with 20 year old Naim integrated amps are happy to post on there. It seems like more of a hobby related site than this one. There seems to be more worship of the $$$ spent on this site - although Naim gear is darn expensive too so maybe not. There system photos are alot more average home looking than here- or maybe it is those smaller english homes.

How about more posts from owners of classic B&W speakers.

[ssabripo]

the answer is simple: Ghetto rich!

no, seriously, I know so many people here in the states that drive nice cars, have nice A/V setups, buy super expensive clothes, etc, but live paycheck to paycheck or have a relatively modest home! It's all about perception.

In Europe (at least in Spain and Italy), if you have a pair of 802's, it means you are in very good shape financially, you have a very nice home, and your finances are in order.


plus, in the US, the used market of a/v equipment is much better/larger, so in my case, I was able to afford a pair of 802's that I would have otherwise NEVER been able to afford.

[sikoniko]

plus, in the US, the used market of a/v equipment is much better/larger, so in my case, I was able to afford a pair of 802's that I would have otherwise NEVER been able to afford.

This is true. I bought my N802's for $4800 from a dealer. He was trying to clear out all nautilus speakers when the Diamonds were released. I sold my N804's for $2500, so including delivery, it cost me around $2500 at the time of purchase.

[Pato]

Hi,

I don't mean to upset anyone or cause offence but how come there are so many people in America who can have a full blown Nautilus/800d/801d/802d set up. I am a member of a very very big av forum in the UK (1 million members) and one person on there has some 802D's with the rest having much lower down the range speakers.

Are us brits poor?

Are B&W speakers in America cheaper?

Is there plenty of finance available in the US?

Thanks

Hi,

Which UK av forum? Only one person with 802D? Sorry but i doubt that...

BTW, i'm portuguese, kwon another 2 portuguese fellows here and we all have 802D.

I'm not rich, i use the subway. :W

[Gremal]

Well, the stereotype is that we Americans are all debtors with maxed out credit cards, right? I tend to pull the trigger on my A/V gear before I can really afford the full price. I pay off as much as I can right away and then transfer it to my home equity line of credit (better interest rate) and plug away at the rest of it until it's all paid off.

Then I get something else. :

I too make minor sacrifices. I don't go clubbing or starbucksing or barhopping. I minimize my monthly expenses by not having a cell phone...plus I cancelled my dish and cable service and put a big antenna on my roof to grab HD signals off air. I drive a honda civic and that's all paid off.

Like many here, my one weakness is A/V gear and that's a bad weakness. I just bought one of the kuro plasmas, which are supposed to be the best plasmas available. Two days after I ordered, Pioneer showed its "extreme contrast" screen at CES set up next to the Kuro model I ordered. It made the Kuro look like kaka, and now I'm thinking ahead to when I can dump the Kuro for the newer model. I have not even taken delivery of this fantastic screen that I will enjoy for many years and I'm already thinking about what's coming next. It's a sickness, I tell you. But I'm sure the sickness is not unique to Americans.

[Pace3000]

I too have an 800 series (note to self: post photos to forum) setup, although not diamonds. I keep monthly expenses low too (no cable/satellite TV subscription), and spend it all on toys.

[arcam_boy]

Hi,

Which UK av forum? Only one person with 802D? Sorry but i doubt that...

BTW, i'm portuguese, kwon another 2 portuguese fellows here and we all have 802D.

I'm not rich, i use the subway. :W

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies.

The site is avforums.com its an excellent site and worth a look. :T

[Pato]

Search for Pato, you'll find me.

UK, home of the B&W... just one user with 802D? NOT!!!

4 at least... me and the 2 portuguese folks here (also in AVF) and the another one you know.

[dknightd]

I live the in the US, and the only place I've seen 800 series is at a dealer.
I would like to see a pair in my living room
Oh well . . .

Edit - the worse thing is I could afford to buy them, but my eldest child starts at college next fall and I promised I'd help out with costs - goodbye extra money for awhile till I get both kids through. I think my 703 will be fine till then

Anybody know of a scholarship for a music loving woman who wants to study chemical engineering and has a father who owns B&W speakers and would like to upgrade?

[Minardi2]

Like many here, my one weakness is A/V gear and that's a bad weakness. I just bought one of the kuro plasmas, which are supposed to be the best plasmas available. Two days after I ordered, Pioneer showed its "extreme contrast" screen at CES set up next to the Kuro model I ordered. It made the Kuro look like kaka, and now I'm thinking ahead to when I can dump the Kuro for the newer model. I have not even taken delivery of this fantastic screen that I will enjoy for many years and I'm already thinking about what's coming next. It's a sickness, I tell you. But I'm sure the sickness is not unique to Americans.

As a current Kuro owner, I looked at the extreme contrast announcement as a great thing. The constant push to make the technology better is admirable.

I love my display and figure it will give me many years of enjoyment. Besides, I think Pioneer said it won't be out until 2009 at the earliest. So enjoy your Kuro and don't look back . . . or ahead as the case may be.

[DM3000 Owner]

I live the in the US, and the only place I've seen 800 series is at a dealer.
I would like to see a pair in my living room
Oh well . . .

Edit - the worse thing is I could afford to buy them, but my eldest child starts at college next fall and I promised I'd help out with costs - goodbye extra money for awhile till I get both kids through. I think my 703 will be fine till then

Anybody know of a scholarship for a music loving woman who wants to study chemical engineering and has a father who owns B&W speakers and would like to upgrade?

I had to put myself through engineering school and law school. She will understand.

[bigburner]

A few years ago I was walking down the road to a school function with my lawyer who had a child at the same private school. “Look at all these fancy cars” I remarked, admiring the BMWs, Porches and other European cars lined up outside the school. “Well Nigel”, he said, “a lot of these people are my clients and I know that many of these cars have been paid for with borrowed money”. Both of us were driving Japanese cars at the time and no further discussion was necessary.

People will always borrow money to keep up appearances or indulge their fantasies. I’m not critical of these people. Life is short and can be unexpectedly even shorter for the less lucky amongst us. Both points of view are valid.

Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

I have been tempted to deal drugs to get the cash.............then I found out that our local bottle shop does not pay that well so that idea went out the window.

[dknightd]

I had to put myself through engineering school and law school. She will understand.

I think this was easier in the past. Anyway, I offered to help, and I'm not going back on that, unless it is not needed.

[george_k]

My dealer is really good about purchasing back speakers that he sold you 2-3 years back for full value towards a new set of speakers. This time the increment cost me around $3k which I financed by credit card. I've just about paid off my balance.

My next and hopefully final upgrade (to happen in a couple of years) will probably be a pair of 803's which I'll probably finance through my line of credit (much cheaper rate)

Yes I could save up and pay cash but that just takes longer :-)

[BassThatHz]

I live in a nuclear family of 5.
My mom and sister are spendthrifts, dollar store, starbux, Mc D's, barhopping, boozing, pizza, smoking, drugs, mall etc, they can deplete over 1k per day... but they pay a heavy price, both are twice my weight and all their credits are max'ed, in fact there isn't a bank in town they don't owe $k's to.

Luckly they spend their money/credit, not mine.
Me and my dad are the opposite to them, if you get a dollar from either of us your doing good... we don't do any of the junk they do, it balances out in the end.

I am 24 and own two decent cars (mint 86 Crown Vic and 2000 suzuki), a 10k HT/Computer and a 2k mtn bike. I've handed down my old equipment to the woman, about 6k in total (two comps, 56" and 1 HT). I am working on paying off the remaining 10K of student loans+taxes I owe gov (until then I am 2 pay-checks from bankruptcy). Then I am debt free and will be working on a house next.

I would never get anything above a 803D because I can't lift it... period, nothing over ~130lbs (unless lotto).

I bought my first set of computer speakers when I was 12, some generic "200watt" pc thingy lol; hooked ever since.

My main focus is computing, audio is second; I've been building the system for 5 years now and have at least another 3 before the end. If I had to do it all over again, I wouln't change a thing.

I use ebay for everything, I wouldn't have half the stuff I do now without it. I buy everything in full, this way I have maximum money in the bank as technology advances on by and I'm not commited till the end.

As far as drugs go, my parents did that; got caught, have criminal records, and now they can't leave the country. No Hawaii/DisneyLand for them!

Upgradeitius can be as bad as gambling if you let it, except you have inventory left over to prove it at the end of the day.

But life IS short and as far as I know you only got one shot at it, so you might as well go all out. I recommend trying a skydive at least once in your life for everyone; it is the closest thing to being Alive/Bird?/God?/Astronaut space-walk? that you will probably ever get the chance to do or be. Don’t do it before a work-day though, because you will have so much adrenaline pumping through you that you won’t sleep for 24hrs. 8)

[bigburner]

I recommend trying a skydive at least once in your life for everyone; it is the closest thing to being Alive/Bird?/God?/Astronaut space-walk? that you will probably ever get the chance to do or be.

That is so coincidental BassThatHz because I took my one and only skydive when I was 24.

The guy before me descended on his reserve because his main failed to deploy.

I'm pretty sure they pushed me out of the plane.

The quietness up there was eerie.

Nigel.

[dknightd]

As far as drugs go, my parents did that; got caught, have criminal records, and now they can't leave the country. No Hawaii/DisneyLand for them!

Last time I checked Hawaii and Disneyland were still in the this country. Of course you could be in a different country.

Edit: Oops now I see your are - nevermind. . .

Anyway - good for you - always try to do your best. I try to avoid debt, but if you manage it well it can be a useful tool.

There is no right answer. You could die tomorrow, or, you could live to 115. Live for today, save for the future.