Norah Jones: Live vs. the 802Ds

[KEF]

Last night my wife and I went to see one of my favorite female vocalists, Norah Jones at the Orpheum Theater in Boston. We had very good front row, center stage balcony tickets; our seats were directly in line with where Norah sat while playing piano.

This is my attempt to compare what I heard live yesterday, vs. what I can recreate in my living room, so take this for what it’s worth – nothing more than my opinion.

Most of us are striving to recreate the “live” music of the genre we like with our systems, basing our beliefs on what it “should” sound like from our live listening experiences. There are many terms thrown around here and on the web that attempt to categorize speakers, amps, players etc., we all know that our speakers and generally lumped into the “bright” category -

For me, this concert was an opportunity to directly compare music I know very, very well – to the real thing.

But that’s the problem – what is the real thing? Is what I heard last night at the Orpheum “real” and the benchmark I should strive to attain? This is an important question, because she’s singing into a mic, which is amplified and then played back through speakers to the audience…

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Norah Jones has a voice that is remarkable, and both my wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the show. She played a nice mix of songs from all three of her CDs – most of the time putting an interesting twist on the playback. The remarkable thing for me was that even when she was on stage with her guitar (or piano) solo, she was magnificent – for example “my dear country”.

There were two things about the concert that took me a bit by surprise:

1. The overall volume – the show, for such a small theater was played at very, very loud levels. Despite the overall SPL levels, the kick drum and the bass didn’t overpower the performance.

2. This was a “Bright” show – I was surprised at just how bright the reproduction and playback really was. The high notes in her vocals, and the high piano keys were very, very “bright”

After the show, my wife and I drove home – I was eager to put in one of her CDs, just to compare.

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Upon returning home we put Norah’s latest CD into my system to compare it to what we had just experienced.

My system is an RCD-1072, Krell KAV-280p, Krell FPB-300cx and the B&W 802Ds – connected by Nordost and Audioquest cables.

I played the volume louder than I normally do to get the sound level into a range of what my wife and I just listened to. This led me to several interesting observations:

1. My system is no where near as bright as the live performance we had just experienced.

2. The Bass produced by my system for this genre of music is sufficient, the music “felt” close enough to the show we just experienced at similar levels.

3. I felt as though Norah’s voice (with the exception of the very high notes) was being reproduced accurately.


************************************************** ********

So after listening to 6 tracks or so last night, I can honestly say I preferred the reproduction of her voice on the 802Ds vs. whatever they were using in the concert.

I found this interesting – because the only way to know what she really sounds like would be to listen to her sing in an un-amplified / reproduced setting, which probably won’t happen for me.

So what is my conclusion?

I am very, very impressed with the system combination I have, and its ability to reproduce the genre of music I prefer.

Funny though, my Krell and B&W system not being bright enough to match the real thing…

Cheers,
Keith

[Cruxis]

I would think it would be pretty difficult to compare a live perfomance with a studio recorded cd, at home, although I've tried to do the same thing in a more general sense. Hall acoustics compared to room acoustics at home would be one varient. Maybe the best way would be if say, they recorded that performance at the Orpheum, and then they released it on CD. But then too much time would elapse to fully remember how it sounded.

[KEF]

I would think it would be pretty difficult to compare a live perfomance with a studio recorded cd, at home, although I've tried to do the same thing in a more general sense. Hall acoustics compared to room acoustics at home would be one varient. Maybe the best way would be if say, they recorded that performance at the Orpheum, and then they released it on CD. But then too much time would elapse to fully remember how it sounded.

I know - it is an interesting topic in general because of what we are comparing things to, relative to the genre of music we like.

If only we could sit in the recording studio every now and then -

Cheers,
Keith

[ShadowZA]

Thanks for sharing, Keith.

I, too, find the Krell/B&W combo to be detailed, dynamic and positively powerful rather than bright and edgy. Imho, this is the next best thing to having Nora Jones sing for us personally in an unamplified setting.

[KEF]

Thanks for sharing, Keith.

I, too, find the Krell/B&W combo to be detailed, dynamic and positively powerful rather than bright and edgy. Imho, this is the next best thing to having Nora Jones sing for us personally in an unamplified setting.

Yes, I thought it was very interesting and thought it might start an interesting conversation on this topic, because how many of us get to see our favorite performing artists in an unaltered (amplified / reproduced) setting?

So how do we know what they really sound like? Would a Mac set up reproduce a Norah Jones CD more faithfully than a Classe set up or my Krell set up? If for those that answer with absolute certainty one way or another, based upon what?

I will read with great interest many of the replies as the conversation develops.

Cheers,
Keith

[Kobus]

I've had to much wine to give a meaningfull comment, but

thanks a lot.

Kobus

[chinets]

Kobus,
I am with you,( Wine and ALL :drinker: ) , but, KEF put me in tears!! ;x(
I was so taken back and touched by this wonderful story, as I have the 802D and 800D, and I love Norah Jones :T
I have seen her LIVE ,but I am not married to her, :W so YES, I believe the closest thing to the real McCoy is them 802D !! ;x(
Cheers!!! And Thanks for that lovely story!!!! ;x(

[worldys]

kef, thanks for taking the time to share your opinions with us, i am going to see norah jones in about a month when she comes to our area, i can't wait, i have listened to her cds so many times on my krell fbp200/N802 set up i have a distinct idea of what she "should" sound lke, i hope i won't be disappointed by the real thing (as odd as that sounds)

cheers

s

[Ted]

I have never been real fond of the sound at concerts, except maybe feeling the bass right in the deepness of your chest. Don't get me wrong, the energy and excitement of a live show is great. So given that, I would expect your 802D's to sound better. I guess this is assuming the concert is in the typical arena type setting we would have around here. Perhaps, in a smaller more acoustically friendly environment, that may be better, or as has been mentioned, a small private environment. Really, even in the studio, you're going to be listening through some type of speakers unless you are right in the room with the performer, so depending on the equipment used, who knows what you'll like better...

Regardless, I'm happy you are happy with the 802D's.

[beden1]

I just set up my new system additions last week, so it's still too soon to comment much on my impressions, but, I have listened to numerous live performances over the years and I tend to agree with your conclusions about the brighter side of live.

When I planned to add the 803Ds for my fronts and use my 703s for the rears, I was concerned that they would not match very well in timbre and may detract from one another. Since putting it all together, I have played with a multitude of settings and listening to each set of speakers individually and as a whole.

At this point, I actually feel that the 803Ds are producing a highly accurate full bodied mellow sound, and the 703s are very accurate (less full bodied) on the brighter side. I'm not sure that either are my ideal of stand-a-lones, but I am extemely pleased when they are combined. The blend of the two pairs are really exceptional, and best described as listening to a live performance.

[a_frankton]

Nothing beats being there live, have never been able to recapture the magic of that, even listening to a live album on an exquiste sound system. Reckon it is probably about the mood and the crowd as much as anything. Then the old home lounge was not built with acoustics in mind.

[jack d]

Well don't forget that the halls where concerts are performed have acoustic properties of their own. And there is also the factor of how the tech guys set up the amps, mics, etc. I'm not at all sure that the acoustics are properly set up at least some if not most of the time in concert halls. Frankly, my own impression is that i prefer listening at home just from the point of view of the acoustic set up. Of course, there is the "live" element and being around so many other people experiencing the event at the same time that cannot be reproduced at home.

What I really want with my 802D set up is to feel that the musicians are in my very own room, not some huge concert hall.

So I think it is a good point to ask about what is the "real" sound and what does each person really want to recreate for home listening.

[Briz vegas]

Closest to live you will get will be a DVD of a live gig.

Live sound can be at 120dB plus, which I think is stupid to try and reproduce at home for a start, unless you want to stuff up your hearing. You cannot replace the moment in a live gig, even as one of many in a audience there is a special vibe of being there with the artist you enjoy.

With a DVD you get some of the "being there" as you see and hear the artist, chances are the mix and quality at home will thrash that of the live sound which is done on the run. At the same time it is hard to beat the sound that is being played then and there as it is unique to that gig. Its the first and last time you will hear it.

Of course I am being petty. You love your sound at home and I you loved the gig - they are different but both can be special. And when you listen at home afterwards you will always be reminded of the gig, which is great too. In fact I am feeling the need for some live music with all this discussion. Its one of the best buzzes out there.

[bigburner]

I spent Easter at the Byron Bay Music Festival in Australia. The festival comprises 5 days of live music from midday to midnight each day, held in four marquees (large tents) of varying sizes, with each performance lasting an average of one hour. Basically you get to hear a lot of different acts at this festival, ranging from rock to blues to R&B to bluegrass to country.

The festival has been running for 18 years so they've really got their shit together with every aspect of the festival. The sound systems are FANTASTIC. However the sound varied from one marquee to the next (different systems), and even in the same marquee the sound changed from one act to the next depending on who was running the sound desk.

In summary, you can't really compare one live performance with a CD at home because there are so many variations when listening to live performances. Some are bright, some are not. Some emphasise the kick drum so much that your chest pounds, others don't.

I always positioned myself right next to the sound desk which was right in the middle of each marquee. It was like sitting in the sweet spot in the middle of my couch at home. It gave me a chance to watch the guys who operated the sound desk. Very interesting. It confirmed the value of having bass and treble controls on a home hi-fi system because everyone has a slightly different idea about what sounds best.

Nigel.

[caleb]

I'm with Briz on this one - spot on mate.

Some years ago, I travelled to Italy to see Peter Gabriel at the Filaforum.

The gig was just superb for the atmosphere, but the sound was not too good, and Peter and the band looked like matchstick men I was so far away.

When the GROWING UP DVD came out the sound was infinately better, and of course you got to see all the band much better.

However the atmosphere was missing.

So which was best - concert or DVD??

Hmmmmmmmmm difficult

[KEF]

Cheers!!! And Thanks for that lovely story!!!! ;x(

You're welcome - glad you enjoyed it.

i have a distinct idea of what she "should" sound lke, i hope i won't be disappointed by the real thing (as odd as that sounds)

You won't be, she is really good - I thoroughly enjoyed the concert

I have never been real fond of the sound at concerts, except maybe feeling the bass right in the deepness of your chest. Don't get me wrong, the energy and excitement of a live show is great. So given that, I would expect your 802D's to sound better. I guess this is assuming the concert is in the typical arena type setting we would have around here. Perhaps, in a smaller more acoustically friendly environment, that may be better, or as has been mentioned, a small private environment. Really, even in the studio, you're going to be listening through some type of speakers unless you are right in the room with the performer, so depending on the equipment used, who knows what you'll like better...

The Orpheum is a really small venue, about 2800 or so - so it was small relative to U2 selling out a 70,000+ stadium. I sat no more then 30-40ft from where she played most of the concert, but your point is correct - there is no way to replicate the real sound in a venue like this.

This is really where I am going with the posting of this thread to begin with - the vast majority of us really have no idea what the performers we enjoy sound like in a truly unaltered state. I really like Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Tracy Chapman, Corinne Bailey Rae – good female vocals.

Who's to say that a VTL tube amp inserted into my set up would make the reproduction more or less realistic?

I'll never know – all each of us can do is objectively select the components that sound best within our own listen environment.

We all build our systems, (which are better than 99% of the general population), around the sound we like and the genre we listen to. But with respect to component X is better than Y, or this amp is better than that – well, it all comes down to what you like, and how you prefer your favorite artist to be reproduced, over and over again, in the comfort of your own home.

Cheers,
Keith

[KEF]

What I really want with my 802D set up is to feel that the musicians are in my very own room, not some huge concert hall.

So I think it is a good point to ask about what is the "real" sound and what does each person really want to recreate for home listening.

Exactly!

Cheers,
KEF

[WI Rotel]

Sound at concerts can vary from excellent to awful, not only is it predicated by the room acoustics but also by the expertise and taste of the sound "engineer". Master recording media will almost always sound better than any concert performance since in the recording studio all the acoustic variables can be tailored appropriately and precisely. Soundwise, even worse than the concert itself, are the recordings of the concert usually they leave a lot to be desired. Norah Jones (I like her a lot too, one of the few modern "lush","sultry" voices) has had the benefit of excellent recordings that are really a treat to listen to on an excellent audio system.
She is an excellent example of what is not necessarily an "excellent" voice from a musical perspective can be the most enjoyable and attractive voice to actually listen to and enjoy 8) She sounds like she's singing soulful loves songs seductively in your ear :T Definitely one of the most enjoyable singers in the last 20 years or so. Unfortunately the songs on her latest CD are not the best IMO, since most of them do not exploit that signiture sound. I hope she doesn't suffer the same fate as Tracy Chapman who started wildly promising but faded into obscurity rather quickly.

[hifiguymi]

Unfortunately the songs on her latest CD are not the best IMO, since most of them do not exploit that signiture sound.

That's because of different producers. The late Arif Mardin (who produced Phil Collins, Bette Midler, Hall and Oates, Rod Stewart, and the list goes on) produced her first two and her bass player/boyfriend Lee Alexander produced the latest one. The producer has the biggest influence on how a recorded disc sounds more than anyone.

Eric

[WI Rotel]

That's because of different producers. The late Arif Mardin (who produced Phil Collins, Bette Midler, Hall and Oates, Rod Stewart, and the list goes on) produced her first two and her bass player/boyfriend Lee Alexander produced the latest one. The producer has the biggest influence on how a recorded disc sounds more than anyone.

Eric

Thats excellent info. Looks like the career choices are being less than optimal

[hifiguymi]

Thats excellent info. Looks like the career choices are being less than optimal

Just like everything else, it depends on your preference. I like all three discs a lot. The third disc is not as polished, it shows a more "raw" quality to her and her music. To me it's more approachable because it's not as "produced". I really like The Little Willies disc as well for the same reason.

Eric

[RNKC]

I listen to classical, but my experience is quite similar. What I find makes the biggest difference is the hall itself. While the live performance is generally louder than what I normally listen to, the sonic quality is remarkably similar to what comes out of the B&Ws (N802 for me).

The one place where I did find an immediate and gigantic difference however, we the legendary Musikverein in Vienna. Even when the conductor walked onto the stage and the audience applauded, I noticed that the applause sounded different. From there the rest of the concert was magnificent and I heard things I had never heard before, even though I even studied the score for one of the works that was played.

So unless I can replicate the Musikverein whenever I get around to building a house, I don't think any system will be just like the real thing. But what I have today comes pretty damn close most of the time, so I'm pretty happy with the system the way it is.

[recall]

I had the chance to listen to Norah Jones in the intimate setting of the Borders bookstore in Downtown Crossing, Boston, probably 10 feet away. I cannot say the acoustics were the most ideal, especially with shelves of books present. But this was before my audiophilia, so I cannot make a direct comparison. Norah Jones spoken voice was much softer and less musical.

After listening to Josh Ritter in NYC at the Bowery Ballroom, a small, intimate venue, where I was maybe 40 feet away on a balcony, I went home and cranked on my N804s, now N802s, and the live performance paled in comparison because of lack of clarity and detail from the PA system. The music was much better in my living room.