B&W 803 HELP

[joewood]

I AM LOOKING TO PUT IN A 5.1 SETUP WITH...
B&W
803S
HTM3S
DS7S
ASW700

ONE DEALER TOLD ME I WOULD BE FINE WITH A PIONEER ELITE RECEIVER TO POWER THEM LIKE THE VSX-84TXSi.

ONE DEALER TOLD ME A DENON WOULD BE FINE TOO...

ANOTHER DEALER TOLD ME THAT WOULD NOT CUT IT...AND I'D NEED SEPARATES LIKE A ROTEL AMP AND PROCESSOR(LARGEST DEALER IN MY AREA)

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE ME SOME ADVICE AND OPINIONS ON WHAT TO DO....I AM NEW TO THE WHOLE SCENE...REALLY LIKE THIS B&W SETUP, BUT I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE RIGHT ELECTRONICS GO WITH THEM...BUT IF I COULD USE 1 RECEIVER...I'D REALLY PREFER THAT!!!

PLEASE HELP....THANKS

[hifiguymi]

The smallest receiver I'd use with speakers like that would be a Rotel RSX-1067, or something similar. Seperates would be better however. Those speakers would really show you how middle of the road something like a VSX-84TXSi really is. The only Denon receivers I'd use with speakers like that would be the AVR-4806CI or the AVR-5805CI.

Eric

[beden1]

I use a Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS (7 channel x 130 watts) receiver in two locations, and it is really a tremendous bargain. I love the features and flexibility it provides. It also has a lot of clean power, and never seems to strain at all. The bonus is also the ability it has to upscale and produce a fantastic picture for DVDs.

My system with the B&W speakers (included) 703 fronts, HTM3S center, and a ASW750 sub. I used the bi-amp option for my front speakers. The system sounds fantastic, and 98%+ of any listener would not hear any difference between the quality sound output of this receiver vs many/most separate components. (this is the first receiver I have owned for my main listening system and had numerous component systems in the past including McIntosh).

Next week, I am adding 803D front speakers, and moving the 703s to the rear channels. They are being delivered Tuesday. I am adding a Classe CAV150 - 6 channel separate amp, and will use it in bi-amp mode to drive my front (3) speakers, and the Pioneer receiver as the pre-amp, and to drive the rear speakers. I am also replacing the ASW750 with two Velodyne SC-15 subs. I am doing this to add some smoother clean sound as a separate quality amp is able to produce, especially in light of my investment in the 803Ds. Eventually, I will add another pre-amp, but, there are so many changes happening with hook-ups (HDMI) and processed sound (lossless digital) that I am going to wait for quite a while to see what shakes out.

The ones who invest their money in high end electronics (amps, pre-amps, esoteric cables, and dedicated CD players, etc.) are the ones who have a trained ear, and are into critical listening. If you don't have a trained ear for actual live performance musical/instrumental sounds (jazz & concerto particularly), IMO, you don't need to invest in separate components until you develop an active interest, and do start to notice things that make you wish you had a cleaner reproduction of the music.

Anything more at this point when starting out, again IMO, would be purely from an ego standpoint, or from being persuaded by a good salesman.

[joewood]

thanks for the info...

could you elaborate on exactly which separates you might use?

thanks

[beden1]

Depending on the size of your room, I would also suggest you get something with more output than the ASW700. The ASW750 blends extremely well with the 703s. But, if I may suggest, you might want to look into a Velodyne DD-12 (approximately $3000 list but can be had discounted for about $2,350 at a dealer), or like I'm doing, look into their Contractor Series, where I'm getting two SC-15" subs with an amp/calibration that lists for the same as the DD-12 and will give you much more output. Call Velodyne directly to ask their opinion on your specific situation to see what they advise.

[beden1]

The smallest receiver I'd use with speakers like that would be a Rotel RSX-1067, or something similar. Seperates would be better however. Those speakers would really show you how middle of the road something like a VSX-84TXSi really is. The only Denon receivers I'd use with speakers like that would be the AVR-4806CI or the AVR-5805CI.

Eric

The only problem I see with the statement about how the Pioneer Elite receiver is "middle of the road", is that the Rotel products are really bargain level separate components. I highly doubt there is much audible difference one would discern from comparing the two next to each other. In fact, I prefer the output of the Pioneer Receiver as compared to what I've heard out of the Rotel products.

If you're going to invest in components, IMO, buy the highest quality you can afford in the amp and pre-amp. I would definitely prefer to buy used clean Classe or Krell products anyday, over any Rotel products I have heard.

[joewood]

do you think that an aforementioned receiver would power my system as it was meant to sound... i.e. the pioneer 84txsi or one of the denons???

or are the separate components a necessity???

[beden1]

You may want to read my first response again, as I think I answered the question there, IMO.

[Eliav]

I used to own 803s and HTM3s. I used to drive them with Rotel 1095
( 200 wattsx5 great power amp) and rotel 1067 processor with excellent two channel bypass mode. The sound was great for a very reasonable price.
I strongly recommend auditioning this combo.

Eliav

[joewood]

so if we are talking receivers...

WHICH RECEIVER WOULD BE THE BEST FOR THIS SETUP
THE PIONEER OR THE DENON???

[joewood]

Room Is About 18 By 18 With A Roof 20 Ft High At Apex

[beden1]

so if we are talking receivers...

WHICH RECEIVER WOULD BE THE BEST FOR THIS SETUP
THE PIONEER OR THE DENON???

The Pioneer 84 you listed is 140W per channel and would do well. I'm not schooled on Denon receivers so I can't say, although they do make good products. Do a search on Google by listing the brand and model number of whichever receivers. You'll see links to web sites with professional reviews that will be listed that can be very helpful. On those directed sites, you'll see reviews of other receivers as well that you can start to compare.

One of the benefits of a receiver is also the video upscaling/processing function. You will want to study these features of each receiver as well, in addition to HDMI inputs/outputs . . . particularly if you are using a new 1080p flat screen TV (or will be down the road).

[Briz vegas]

803D are some pretty serious speakers. I personally would find it hard to justify the price without matching it with some VERY serious electronics. Your decision would have to depend on what your listening habits are - ie movies vs music and where you want to take the system in the future.

If this is a one off purchase -ie no future upgrades, then you may wish to consider other combinations - such as the 803s and divert more money into the electronics (and have you considered cables, interconnects and room treatment in your budget). 803D will sound fabulous with the right electronics, but you will most likely find that the 803s on better electronics will sound better that the 803D with a receiver.

You are spending a mint on this system. I strongly suggest looking into getting a home demo. Of course the difficulty in your case is that there is just so much gear involved in the one hit (I have always done home demos but it was with 2 pieces max).

I have 804s which I use with a 110w marantz receiver (once close cousin to the Denons). To my ears it struggles without my separate power amp to run the 804s. For music I bypass the receiver all together as even the 804s needs better electronics to get the best out of them (and I am sure that I could get better performance yet out of my system although it is sounding pretty nice to my ears so I am in no great hurry)

If you are upgrading electronics later then the receiver may be a fine stop gap measure. You could aways add a 2 channel power amp at a later date to run your 803D and take some of the pressure off the receiver.

Have fun making those difficult choices - take your time if you have that luxury, a bit of time spent at this stage can mean so much more enjoyment if you get the mix of gear right. If you are in the US you may want to take advantage of the trade up schemes - maybe start with 804s for now with the best electronics, then edge your way up to the 803D.

I have heard it said a number of times that a system that is nurtured (buillt up) over time will be better than one purchased in one hit -particularly if the only system you have ever owned was a home theatre in a box (this may not be you, its just an observation) as you need to get to know what you like in a system and build towards achieving that.

good luck

[joewood]

Ok...

Yeah These Are The 803s... I Can Get A Substantial Discount From 1 Dealer... So Its Almost Like Buying 805s Or 703 Series....

With That Being Said...is There Any Receiver That You Think Could Do This System Justice???

[hifiguymi]

The only problem I see with the statement about how the Pioneer Elite receiver is "middle of the road", is that the Rotel products are really bargain level separate components. I highly doubt there is much audible difference one would discern from comparing the two next to each other. In fact, I prefer the output of the Pioneer Receiver as compared to what I've heard out of the Rotel products.

If you're going to invest in components, IMO, buy the highest quality you can afford in the amp and pre-amp. I would definitely prefer to buy used clean Classe or Krell products anyday, over any Rotel products I have heard.

I don't want to get into an argument here, but I have personal experience with Pioneer Elite, Denon, and Rotel. Those are the three receiver brands I sell at my store (I also have Classe for the top end). I think the VSX-84TXSi is a great receiver for the money. It's has all the features you could want in terms of HDMI switching, MCACC, and iPod control, but it will not run those speakers that well. It will make them play, but that is about it. In one of our theater rooms in our store we have a 700 Series speaker system with 703's, an HTM7, DS7's and an ASW750. We went from a Denon AVR-4306 to a Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS to finally a Rotel RSX-1067 and there is no comparison. The RSX-1067 was much better than the other two. The one area the Pioneer was better at was taking out a little of the heaviness in the center channel because it's in a cabinet. Other than that, the Rotel was better by a long shot. Better surround steering, better two channel performance, and much more dynamic. The 800 Series is more revealing than the 700 Series and will show off the differences even more.

Moving to sperates would be better yet, it all depends on budget and how big the room is. That is alot of speaker (approx $11K) for a $1500.00 receiver and they would be better served with better electronics.

Eric

[joewood]

Thanks For The Info Eric...

As A Dealer, What Separates Would You Normally Pair With A System Like That?

[scanido]

I have to agree with hifiguymi here. The 800 series are pinnacle speakers and IMO deserve nothing less than stellar electronics to match the level of engineering and development that went into them. The series was designed to bring out the finest details from music/movies and with a receiver used as an all in one solution, I strongly believe you will not get what you paid for.

The 800 series at least should be powered with separates. With that said, I'm running my 803S and HTM3S with an RSX-1057 which is fine as a stop gap solution until i can finally afford separates and I feel I am only scratching the surface with this receiver.

Ideally, in the Rotel camp, i would go with an RSP-1068 / RMB-1095.
If your on a budget then go with the smaller RMB-1075.

[beden1]

On this subject of components, I have a question myself. As I listed, I will be running a Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS receiver, along with a Classe CAV-150 (6 channel amp x 150 watts) connected to the pre-outs, to power my front three speakers that will be either bi-amped or bridged for (300 watts per channel). This setup is put together primarily for HT in mind. (speakers include 803D fronts, 703 rears, twin Velodyne SC-15 subs, and HTM3S center - until I get an HTM2D center to match the 803Ds).

I have an Aragon MKII 24K ips 2 channel pre-amp left over from one of my previous setups that I was thinking of adding to the mix for stereo listening. I always felt this pre-amp provided a very clean sound.

To set-up this pre-amp, would I just use Y adaptors to connect the CD player, and Y adaptors to input to the amp . . . so I could use either the receiver for 5 channel; or this pre-amp for two channel?

I worry sometimes that adding more splits in the signals degrade the clarity, but I would be interested in any thoughts on this subject as well.

[Kobus]

If you have budget constraints, get the receiver now. Later if you like 2ch, you can get a 2ch pre-amp and amps for the front LR.

Kobus

[hifiguymi]

Thanks For The Info Eric...

As A Dealer, What Separates Would You Normally Pair With A System Like That?

The brands I have the most experience with are Rotel and Classe (currently), and Krell and Mark Levinson (in the past). All are very good and are at different price levels. The Rotel line is a great value. You get alot of performance for the money. I know there are other very good products out there however. One of the advantages that Rotel, and Classe for that matter, has with B&W is their close relationship. I feel there is a synergy that those two lines have with B&W and that is why I sell them. The Classe line is quite a bit better than the Rotel, but it comes at a price. It all comes down to budget.

The Krell line is very good, but I think it can tend to be a little bright with B&W speakers. Here is a threat that touches on it a little bit. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=25442 You should listen for yourself if you can.

As far as the ML line, well that, like the Krell Evolution line, is very expensive. It does sound good, but you pay for it. I think the Classe line is very very close for alot less money.

It's hard for me not to sound jaded, but I guess I am a little. I wouldn't sell Rotel and Classe if I didn't believe in them. I have to keep my customers happy and coming back for more.

Eric

[hifiguymi]

To set-up this pre-amp, would I just use Y adaptors to connect the CD player, and Y adaptors to input to the amp . . . so I could use either the receiver for 5 channel; or this pre-amp for two channel?

I worry sometimes that adding more splits in the signals degrade the clarity, but I would be interested in any thoughts on this subject as well.

If you plan on using the same speakers and power amp (which I assuming you are) then that will sort of work. To get the best two channel sound the Aragon would have to be right in front of the amp. You could use a Y adaptor and go into the Aragon and the Pioneer, but you would also have to go from the front preamp outputs of the Pioneer into an imput on the Aragon. The Aragon would then have to be set at the same volume (preferably unity gain) every time you use the SS system. A better solution would be to put the Pioneer in a tape loop on the Aragon if it has one. Then you wouldn't have to use the Y adaptors. If the Aragon has a SS loop that would be even better for ease of use. You wouldn't have to turn it up to unity gain every time you had the SS system on.

I hope this makes sense, if not send me a personal e-mail and I'll give you my phone number and try to explain it that way.

Eric

[mrohde]

I used a Sony ES reciever for a two years with a setup simulair to yours. It "worked" but you aren't going to make full use if the speakers capabilites. Most B&W's benifit from high current amps. I got rid of the Sony and put Krell gear in and it made a world of difference.

[recall]

Classe

I have tried various different combinations...

Nautilus 805 with Denon 3805
Nautilus 804 with Denon 3805
Nautilus 804 with Denon 3805 + Bryston 4B NRB amp
Meridian 561 + Bryston
Krell HTS II + Bryston
Classe SSP-25 + Bryston

and now the new 803S with SSP-25 + Bryston.

Each step, the sound got better and more musical (my main listening preference). The Krell handled movies better, I thought.

The jump from using the Denon as a preamp to a dedicated preamp was very significant, as well as adding the 250w/ch Bryston amp. The 803S are just amazing in the current setup. I think the SSP-25 is one of the best values out there. Definitely consider it, especially since you already have the CAV-150 for an amp. In fact, I have an extra one if you'd like to PM me to discuss it further.

[chin kwan]

I own a very similar set-up.. N803/SCM1/HTM1/ASW4000..

I used Mark Levinson to drive my N803 and Proceed to drive my SCM1.

Using ML 38S Pre-amp (HT bypass) and Yamaha RX-V1 for surround processing..Had Proceed PAV/PDSD before this..

800 series are definietly very critical of the amplification and sources used.. much more so then the older Matrix series as well..

In short.. it will definitely be a waste of speaker to use a receiver to drive them..

I think I have gone a step backwards using the Yamaha for processing rather then the Proceed Processor..

Feed them with the best you can and those speakers will sing.