B&W 805 and Denon 2805 or 3805 Receiver

[SPACEMANRICK]

Hello, I am thinking of buying probably the B&W 805 speakers and was considering buying the Denon 2805 100 watt receiver to run the speakers primarily for now to listen to music. Is this receiver powerful enough to get the best out of these speakers or should I upgrade to the 120 watt Denon 3805 receiver? I know others have recommended Rotel, and other more expensive brand but I don't think I can afford those for now.

My budget is being stretched as it is because I first started looking at the B&W 705 speakers but after hearing the 805's I am leaning towards buying those instead

[turbokuo]

SPACEMANRICK,

You are going to get various opinions on this one but I say this from personal experience. When I first got my N802, everyone said that my 9-year old 80 watt Yamaha home theater receiver would not be able to drive the N802's. Up to moderate volume levels, that was a bunch of BS. Not only could they drive them but they also sounded pretty good up to moderate levels. At higher levels, it's a different story due to clipping etc.

The key is not to always focus on watts because B&W's are pretty efficient speakers, but rather to see if your receiver can handle 4 ohm loads in my case with the N802 (not sure if this is quite as important in your case with the 805's...you'll need to look at your speaker curves). You see even though N802 are efficient 8ohm speakers they do dip into the 4ohm, even 3ohm territory and if the receiver can't handle these loads than clipping can occur. Finally another reason to not focus on watts because 1 Denon watt does not equal 1 Classe watt. Many of the lesser brands tend to exaggerate their specs. Therefore among the inexpensive receivers, HK and Onkyo tend to be more realistic about their watts compared to Denon, Sony and Yamaha.

So my thoughts are that you are doing the right thing. Spend most of your $'s on the speakers because they make the biggest impact!!! Next find yourself a decent receiver that can handle the 805's. 20 Denon watts will not make a SQ difference. Of all the analog receivers I've tried they pretty much sounded the same, yes even the Classe Integrated. Also most of the digital receivers I've tried sounded better than the analog ones and my favorite was the HK 2005 digital. Good luck!

[bcgator]

Spaceman, you'll be fine. I ran my B&W 805 Signatures with an Onkyo 701 receiver and they sounded great. Turbokuo is right, put most of your money into the speakers, and just buy the nicest receiver you might be able to afford right now.

By the way, you'll love the 805's, they're wonderful speakers.

BCGator

[scottielee]

i used to run my signature 805's with a denon 3803. not bad. music was quite enjoyable. i never felt they were underpowered. but those 805's are very special and capable. after living with them for sometime, they will convince you to feed them with better and better electronics. after 2.5 years of owning them, i have changed every single component/accessory in my system, except these beauties. good luck!

[turbokuo]

SPACEMANRICK,

One more thing. No one to date, not even audiophile "Golden Ears" has ever passed a double-blind test to try to distingush SQ differences between various solid state brand amps and receivers (provided that they were not overloaded).

[audioqueso]

SPACEMANRICK,

One more thing. No one to date, not even audiophile "Golden Ears" has ever passed a double-blind test to try to distingush SQ differences between various solid state brand amps and receivers (provided that they were not overloaded).

What??? You're saying that the SQ between an A/V receive and an amp is the same? Sorry, but if that's what you mean, that's completely wrong.

I have a pair of 805 running of a Marantz SR6400 (100x5). The amp pushes the speakers alright, but was lacking in bass. I ended up bi-amping using 4 of the channels and the bass really came to life. I just ordered my Rotel amp which I should receive Thursday. Though my 805 sound good with only the Marantz A/V receiver, there are too many times that it cries for more power. So I'll let you know how big of a difference it makes with a dedicated amp.

[Ash]

Spacemanrick,

I have a pair of N805's as well (HTM2 center and 705 surrounds). These are amazing speakers and need very good amps to drive them. I'm using a 100 Watts X 5 Pioneer receiver to drive those speakers. The sound from the whole system is great. However, I know that the receiver is the weakest link in the system, and I'm constantly aware of its short comings in driving the system, especially when I'm listening to music.

No way can I listen to music in stereo mode because the sound is awful. I can only listen to music in pro-logic II or one of the other music surround settings (this gives reasonable music sound atleast).

However, I haven't lost that much because my spending on this receiver was minimal (I also didn't, and still don't have sufficeint funding to buy a good amp), I have spent only $400 on it, and it is easier for me to consider it as just a transit untill I buy a good and worthy amp.

Perhaps you should critically test your speakers with the Denons and then test them with other good amps (i.e. Rotel)

If you feel that there is significant improvement over the Denon, this would indicate that at some time in the future you would begin to consider buying a better amp (thus spending a good amount on the Denon, and then selling it cheap and buying a much more expensive amp and losing money). In this case you can consider buying a second hand receiver perhaps, and use it untill you are able to make the right purchase.

However, if you liked the Denon sound with your speakers, and to you they compared well to other brands (such as Rotel) then you should consider buying the Denon as your perminant amp (atleast for awhile).

Good luck

[SPACEMANRICK]

Thanks for the input so far guys! Right now I am leaning towards the Denon 2805 100 watt 7 channel receiver. But I will give them another listen and compare to some other receivers.

I am watching my dollars pretty close, do you think that I need to buy the 805 speaker stands that retail for $900 Canadian or do you think I can save some money and buy a cheaper set of B&W speaker stands for 1/2 or 1/3 the price of the 805 speaker stands? Do the 805 speaker stands actually screw in to the bottom of the 805 speakers to hold them in place?

[Verinnal]

I am watching my dollars pretty close, do you think that I need to buy the 805 speaker stands that retail for $900 Canadian or do you think I can save some money and buy a cheaper set of B&W speaker stands for 1/2 or 1/3 the price of the 805 speaker stands? Do the 805 speaker stands actually screw in to the bottom of the 805 speakers to hold them in place?

The dealer at which I purchased my 804S' had 805S' on 700 series stands. I don't believe there is a benefit to the more expensive stand.

[turbokuo]

What??? You're saying that the SQ between an A/V receive and an amp is the same? Sorry, but if that's what you mean, that's completely wrong.

I have a pair of 805 running of a Marantz SR6400 (100x5). The amp pushes the speakers alright, but was lacking in bass. I ended up bi-amping using 4 of the channels and the bass really came to life. I just ordered my Rotel amp which I should receive Thursday. Though my 805 sound good with only the Marantz A/V receiver, there are too many times that it cries for more power. So I'll let you know how big of a difference it makes with a dedicated amp.

Nope that's not what I stated. I didn't say I don't notice a difference, but rather people who think they've heard a difference between analog amps have never passed a double-blind test given that the amps/receivers were not overdriven. In my case I've tried Classe, Rotel, HK and Yamaha analog gear and yes to me there "seemed" like small differences in general and big differences when certain ones were "clipping." It's amazing but there are so many cases where if you know you are listening to a $3,000 amp than or course you are going to think it's better than a $400 receiver. That's why the double-blind test is so critical...you'll be amazed how little difference there is between analog amps for most people once they are unaware of what they are listening to.

If you are looking for better SQ and bass control go Digital, no question. Digital amps/receivers are a whole different breed and are the wave of the future due their inherent design benefits related to low noise floor, negative feedback and pure digital paths. The SQ, soundstaging, bass control, from my HK 2005 digital was much better than the amps/receivers that i've owned/tried above. Also many of the major boutiques will be offering digital amps/integrated amps shortly.

[Ash]

Turbokuo,

I know that this is off the subject (I'm sorry for that) I'm really interested in the digital amps, the only reason I'm not buying an amp right now is because I want a digital amps to become available for sale in one of the brands I'm interested in.

Can you explain how does the digital amps compare to the analog and how does this technology is an imporvement over the analog. A big question that I always think about is whether the digital amps require DACs at some level???

Can you please share some of your expereince with me.

Thanks

[Ash]

Spacemanrick,

I think that the B&W stands are very expensive. I had mine custom made in a metal workshop. The speaker sits on it perfectly, I had wholes drilled in order to screw the speaker to the stand. I have also filled the pipe with sand for damping. Furthermore, I had them place big bolt screws (shaped as spikes) in the base, in order for me to balance the stand by tightening or losening the four screws. The stand is very heavy and cannot be knocked over. It cost me $180. However, it doesn't look as good as the 805 stand.

[turbokuo]

Ash,

Ah welcome to the world of digital amps!!! Many unknowingly spend thousands of dollars trying to improve their analog amps only to be beaten in performance by $250-1,500 digital amps. It's hard to believe but the primary reason that digital amps can give the better performance for less is because they cost the manufactorer less to build than their analog counterparts. But don't listen to me check out the other major AV forums, many are ditching their $5,000 amps and buying $250-$1500 digital path amps and getting the same performance. My Panasonic X70 digital creamed the Rotel in SQ but I ended up choosing the HK 2005 digital because it better suited my tastes in looks and SQ.

When it comes to:
1) Soundstaging
2) Bass Control
4) Detail in Music
5) Heat Management

Buck for buck, a true digital amp (not the hybrids ones out there) will accel due to the inherent flaws of an analog amp. I'll PM more later because I don't want to highjack this thread.

[Ash]

Turbokuo

That sounds great, please PM me with more information cause i'm really interested.

Thanks

[SPACEMANRICK]

Turbokuo, don't worry about hijacking this thread after reading what you have said so far about digital amps I would like to learn more about them to see if I should consider buying one instead of the Denon 2805 or 3805. Is there a specific digital receiver you would recommend in the $1000 US range? To be honest I have never heard of a "digital amp" before.......

[perato]

If you are interested in digital amps, you can just be sure to buy a receiver that has all the latest connections. I'm not sure how good it would be to use analog pre-outs to connect to a digital amp. I do not know of any receiver or amp that is fully digital for US$1000. The Samsung AV-R3000 should be available later this year but it has an MSRP of US$5000. The topic of digital amps has appeared before in this forum, you can search for it. Someone previously posted a link to ICEpower.

[turbokuo]

Perato, why yes there are a few pure digital receivers under $1,000 for example the Panasonic X70 and HK 2005. And you're right I've used the digital optical which pretty much turns the CD player into a transport and also the other way around, using analog cables and utilizing my Burr Brown DAC, the SQ on the pure digital path was much clearer.


SPACEMANRICK and Ash my GF is getting annoyed that I spend so much time on this board so I'll write more later. We are at the dawn of an amp revolution and some analog amp fans will never like digital amps even when they become the amp of choice within the next 1-2 years....just like there are still people who prefer Tube amps over Solid State analog amps and people who prefer turntables over CD player. Regardless I respect their choices. My quest much like many other audiophies is to get as close to the orginal recording as possible and digital amps are a significant step forward. If you guys want to send me an email at nsxm3@yahoo.com I'll send you an article that will really open your eyes!!!

[turbokuo]

What??? You're saying that the SQ between an A/V receive and an amp is the same? Sorry, but if that's what you mean, that's completely wrong.

I have a pair of 805 running of a Marantz SR6400 (100x5). The amp pushes the speakers alright, but was lacking in bass. I ended up bi-amping using 4 of the channels and the bass really came to life. I just ordered my Rotel amp which I should receive Thursday. Though my 805 sound good with only the Marantz A/V receiver, there are too many times that it cries for more power. So I'll let you know how big of a difference it makes with a dedicated amp.

Audioqueso, while I respect your opinion unfortunately the human ear combined with the human memory is one of the most unreliable measurements of audio...I could give you a whole dissertation on this if you want to email me. There have been many ABX tests and one in particular tends to stand out from Stereo Review's Editor where a large group of people participating in a double blind ABX test with Levinson gear vs NAD vs $220 Pioneer receiver and other various gear to see if they can consistently pick the better amp. The Levinson went head to head with the Pioneer and guess who won? Not the Levinson....more specifically pretty much every amp sounded the same. Don't underestimate your Marantz, unless you know it's Clipping

[george_k]

I would have to agree with turbokuo about the double blind ABX test results, my acoustics professor told us about a similar scenario.

One thing I'd like to point out, while I haven't heard any of the new series HK amplifers I did goto their website to lookup the 2005. Some interesting results are below,

DPR 2005
---------
Output: 120 Watts per channel, 20Hz – 20kHz, @ <0.15% THD, both channels driven into 8 ohms

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (IHF-A) : 97 dB

Price : $1799

http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=DPR%202005&sType=C

AVR 635/7300
-------------
Output: 90 (or 125 Watts 7300) per channel @ <0.07% THD, 20Hz – 20kHz, both channels driven into 8 ohms

Signal-to-Noise Ratio (IHF-A) : 100 dB

http://www.harmankardon.com/specifications.aspx?Region=USA&Country=US&Language=ENG&cat=REC&ser=&prod=AVR%20635&sType=C

Price : $1299 (635)
Price : $2399 (7300)

Note that both the solidstate receivers are less noisy. Personally when it comes to audio I've never trusted the output and noise specs given by companies like Panasonic, Sony etc (I might be wrong but this is the trend I've noticed), don't get me wrong they are good amps but I wouldn't consider them to be in the same league as say H/K or a boutique brand. Out of the companies listed in this thread I think that H/K is only one with any regard for higher fidelity.

One more thing I didn't notice is how much current to the digital amps supply in comparison to the solidstate amps?

[turbokuo]

Hey George,

Glad to hear someone else has technical audio knowledge. Heads up - the HK 2005 is currently selling for $850 from authorized vendors. HK tends to set high MSRP's but street prices are very different.

To answer your question, .15% vs .07% THD is pretty much inaudible unless you have dog ears. But if it concerns you than give it another year and HK's next version will make this a non issue.

Also to answer your other question, the HK is one of the few digital amps under $1,000 that works well at 4ohms and it's also the only one whose current almost doubles at 4 ohms and that's why it's more $$$ than the cheeper ones such as the Panasonic, JVC etc. Although my 802 is 8ohms it does dip into the 3-4ohm range therefore that's why I went with the HK. Finally unlike analog amps, the current digital amps are very different sounding from each other, not always better, just different and I could pass an double blind ABX on this because the Panasonic digital was so accurate that it made my ears bleed (more on this later)!!!

[Ash]

Turbokuo,

Do you get any clipping when you use digital amp with the 802, and does it have sufficient power to drive the 802?

Furthermore, do you think that they will work fine with my N805, HTM2 and & 705 speakers??

[turbokuo]

Turbokuo,

"Do you get any clipping when you use digital amp with the 802, and does it have sufficient power to drive the 802?"

The Panasonic and Onkyo did not have sufficient power. The HK 2005 which almost doubles at 4ohms (need to double check the stats) does and it's simply awesome in terms of power.

"Furthermore, do you think that they will work fine with my N805, HTM2 and & 705 speakers??"

The HK definitely will and it's a tough call with the other brands as I don't know your speaker curves. You'll need to find the 805 curves and see if at any point they dip to the 3-4 ohm territory. Finally if you are going to use the HK 2005 for home theater I would wait for the next generation. Although 2005 sounds amazing for HT right now, the next version will have HK's EZ auto calibaration (which is already the AVR 635) that does wonders for HT.

[turbokuo]

As with any new revolutionary audio technology, there are just some people that are going to dislike it…examples seen in individuals who till this day still prefer turntables over cd players and tubes over solid state amps.

Regardless I respect their decision but the fact is that digital amps are the wave of the future for those who are striving to get as close to the original recording as possible and as each generation of digital amps passes, they will become even better. Their inherent technical advantages in noise floor, bass management, negative feedback back over analog amps is a reality. And the scary part is that the current crop of sub $1,000 digital amps/receiver are performing and in some cases outperforming analog gear that cost thousands more like Parasound, Levinson, Classe, etc. Check out the larger audio video forums and you can email specific individuals who have already done ditched their expensive gear in favor of the digital wonders. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not advocating that you sell your beautiful Levinson or Classe gear and go out and buy a digital Panasonic as I am a big fan of eye candy. But I would bet there is a segment of people on this board who don’t make millions each year and would appreciate the fact that they can spend sub $1,000 on a digital amp/receiver and have it outperform analog gear costing thousands more.

Be warned though!!! Not everyone will like digital amps as a matter of fact of the 4 different brands that I’ve tried; I only liked 2 of them. The reasons vary with each brand and are not always due to product infancy but rather preferences. For example, I feel that the Onkyo 552 while promising is a premature digital product and still needs work, the Panasonic X70 while having the best clarity of all the digitals, made my ears bleed after 15min (keep in mind that this is coming from someone who doesn’t think B&W’s are harsh). So my point is that the digital difference is so dramatic in some cases, as with the X70, that even though it has better overall SQ, ironically my ears just could not get accustomed to the new dumb-founding clarity. A specific example of this is with Track 1 of my Yo Yo Ma recording where in the past, I could always hear someone turning the sheet music in the background and with the X70 the sound of turning the music sheet was so much clearer, vivid, defined at the same volume that ironically it became very distracting from the overall enjoyment of the music!!! Eventually I chose the HK 2005 because it has the best combination between the new and old world and is currently the only one in this crop that works well at 4ohms. It has the inherent benefits of digital amps/receivers but with an ever so slight hint of the SQ of analog amps. Keep in mind X70 fans usually don’t like the HK 2005 for the same exact reason. They would frown upon me because the HK’s flavor is too close to an analog amp and so may you. Many boutique brands are planning digital alternatives which will show up within the next 1 1/2 years and in most cases they will price them higher than their analog counterparts, such as the case with HK.

So there are some that will read this and say “Puleeez! How can a sub $1,000 product analog or digital perform or outperform my eye candy, jaw dropping Mark L. gear?”

One phrase “Marketing, Heritage and Brand Image that often drives Customer Perception/Lack of Technical Knowledge.”

The reality is NO ONE, I repeat, NO ONE not even “Golden Ears” or famous amp designers such as Mark L, / John Curl have ever passed or for that matter consistently passed a double blinded ABX test, PERIOD. And for those of you who hear a difference and I’m not stating that you don’t hear a difference (remember aside from clipping situations), but please do yourself a favor and buy a $750 ABX box to perform a double-blind test for yourself, the results are very eye-opening when you don’t know which brand you’re listening to and you will most likely fail to tell a difference like everyone else who’ve tried, unless that is…you are “The Chosen One,” (Like Neo or Anakin) and do pass. At which point you will become a very wealthy individual because the major amp companies will be tripping over themselves to throw mega $$$ contracts your way in return for proof that their amps make a SQ difference. I reiterate, aside from detecting clipping situations.

Marketing, heritage and cosmetics are an amazing selling tool. On a lighter note, Bose, Monster Cables and Porsche are a few of the best Marketing companies of all time!!! I’ve got a poopy-slow silver Porsche Boxster as a daily commuter car and till this day when I tell people (amazingly some men too), that my E46 M3 is faster in the straight line, they look at me like I’m on drugs!!! Hell the lady that I bought my new Razr V3 cell phone from last Saturday, saw it through the window and thought that it was faster than her boss’s BMW Z8 next to it! Hahaha, the beauty of Marketing and Customer Perception/Lack of Knowledge), and to think I’m in Los Angeles, one of the car capitals of the world.

[Ash]

Sounds very interesting turbokuo. This would mean that I could reduce my budget when considering an amp for my system because the new wave of digital amps would perform much better than their analouge brotherens for less money. That is good to hear, cause I've been waiting for a while to replace my cheap Pioneer receiver.

I talked to the HK dealer here and he told me that they will be getting the digital amps in July. So I will be looking forward to test them with my system. I have also heard that Rotel are also developing a digital amp, which could be released in October.

I was wondering, which amp did you use before getting the HK2005

[turbokuo]

Sounds very interesting turbokuo. This would mean that I could reduce my budget when considering an amp for my system because the new wave of digital amps would perform much better than their analouge brotherens for less money. That is good to hear, cause I've been waiting for a while to replace my cheap Pioneer receiver.

Ah, reduce your amp budget but spend it on speakers . Regardless of all this digital amp talk. Speakers by far still have the number one impact on SQ. My 802's with my old Yamaha 80 watt receiver will outgun the 804S with the lastest and greatest digital or analog amp up to moderately loud volumes.

I talked to the HK dealer here and he told me that they will be getting the digital amps in July. So I will be looking forward to test them with my system. I have also heard that Rotel are also developing a digital amp, which could be released in October.

.

When you do this make sure your CD player has an optical out which bypasses the CD's DAC, so that you can connect it to your optical in on the HK receiver. Any other way and it won't be a true digital path thereby negating some of the digital advantages.

I was wondering, which amp did you use before getting the HK2005

I've tried Panasonic, Onkyo, HK, Yamaha, Rotel and Classe Integrated. The key with amp auditions is to try them in your house and not at the dealer. The room environment difference between the dealer and your house in most cases it too different to make a sound purchase decision.


One other thing Ash regardling this quote:

"No way can I listen to music in stereo mode because the sound is awful. I can only listen to music in pro-logic II or one of the other music surround settings (this gives reasonable music sound atleast)."

This statement concerns me and I suspect that your receiver is not at fault unless it's defective. I've heard the N805 driven with Classe, NAD, Rotel and my 9-year old Yamaha receiver in the same room and non of them were unbearable like you mentioned. I suspect you are experiencing a known coloration with the N805's with certain bass notes.

My recommendation is if your receiver isn't deflective, use the receiver upgrade $ and buy the 805S new/used or if you can swing it 804S. I've spent way too many hours at the dealer comparing the differences between the old and new generation and of course all the new models improved on the old ones. But the one that was the most dramatic improvement was the N805 to 805S, the cabinet bass coloration apparent on non of the old 800 series, except the N805, is gone from the 805S. Listen to the old Norah Jones CD to see what I mean. I only say this because you mention concerns about bass performance and that you were interested in 2 channel music. If you use N805 primarily for HT then go ahead and upgrade the digital amp but unfortunately not even the digital amp will fully resolve the bass coloration problem of the old N805. Regardless though, they are excellent bookselves when compared to most other brands.

[RebelMan]

... There have been many ABX tests and one in particular tends to stand out from Stereo Review's Editor where a large group of people participating in a double blind ABX test with Levinson gear vs NAD vs $220 Pioneer receiver and other various gear to see if they can consistently pick the better amp. The Levinson went head to head with the Pioneer and guess who won? Not the Levinson....more specifically pretty much every amp sounded the same.

Kudos to you turbokuo for having the courage to stand up against popular opinion and belief. :T I have also seen this particular article and I concur. However, while the article states (these) amps may not differ on sound (all things being equal) they can and often do differ on quality. And this plays an important part when properly matching speakers with the amps that will drive them. (I don't think you ever disputed that fact though.)

I also agree with you when you say that speakers are (by far) the most important part of any sound system.

Nicely done!

[Ash]

Turbokuo,

I doubt that the N805 is the problem here, the amp is a very cheap amp, definatley at the lowest range of Pioneer (100watts X 5), it cost $240. When I listen to stereo mode, the sound is flat and tasteless, it's also a bit distant. However, when using other sound mode it's fine!, the sound is full and more defined. Furthmore, when I try the "5 channels stereo" mode the amp gives 120watts X 5 (or they presume it does), the sound becomes more defined, however the high freq is too harsh in this mode. I will try the stereo mode with the B&W705 i have (which is similar to N805 in some respects) and will see how it goes.

I doubt I can sell the N805 (even if I wanted). The audio market is weak were I come from and I would definatly sell them cheap in order to find a buyer. Furthermore, I have just finished buying all the speakers I need (or I though I did) for the next few years. You know that B&W are very expensive speakers, and its sad to sell them before getting the most out of them. So I will pretend that I don't know anything regarding the "bass coloration" in order to avoid becoming paranoid and start going crazy hehehe.

However, I tried upgrading once, because my dealer refered me to one customer who wanted to sell his N802 for an amazing price of $3450. But when I called him, he told me that he sold them : (

My next purchase would be to change my sub (ASW 1000) which I'm really dissapointed with, it is very boomy and undefined. I'm considering ASW750 or maybe the ASW825. I'm still trying to figure out whether the ASW825 is worth the extra $700 over the ASW750. After the sub I will buy the Amp (receiver) and I hope by then a few digital models would surface (with HDMI). Finally the TV will go.

[turbokuo]

Kudos to you turbokuo for having the courage to stand up against popular opinion and belief. :T I have also seen this particular article and I concur. However, while the article states (these) amps may not differ on sound (all things being equal) they can and often do differ on quality. And this plays an important part when properly matching speakers with the amps that will drive them. (I don't think you ever disputed that fact though.)

I also agree with you when you say that speakers are (by far) the most important part of any sound system.

Nicely done!

Most definitely . For all those who have $$$ burning in their pockets I would recommend the bling bling model everytime!!! These offer the intangible benefits only provided by Elite Models.

[turbokuo]

I doubt that the N805 is the problem here, the amp is a very cheap amp, definatley at the lowest range of Pioneer (100watts X 5), it cost $240. When

Hmmm...in this case find the speaker graphs and then an receiver that can handle that speaker.

Sorry to clue you in on the bass coloration, it's only obvious on certain songs. Funny thing is I recognized it before I read the 805S vs N805 review which confirmed my suspicion. Regardless, like I said you have excellent speakers!!!

[Ash]

Turbo,

Do you know where I can find the speaker graph???

And if I find it, how could it help me detirmine whether a receiver or an amp is appropriate for my speakers??

Thanks, you've been very heplful, I appreciate it

[turbokuo]

Turbo,

Do you know where I can find the speaker graph??? And if I find it, how could it help me detirmine whether a receiver or an amp is appropriate for my speakers?? Thanks, you've been very heplful, I appreciate it

Not sure on the graphs, maybe the B&W site but when you find them all you need to do is see if it dips in the 3-4 ohm range and pic a receiver that is able to go that low for short durations. In general for the sub $1,000 price range Rotel, NAD, HK, Onkyo are relatively fair with their power ratings and should do a fair job of handling the short ohm dips during difficult passages.

[Ash]

Sounds great I will try to find the graph, and check out which amps are appropriate.

thanks

[Pieter]

B&W Nautilus 805 impedance curve:

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/168/index6.html

[Ash]

Pieter,

Thanks alot, really, you have saved me alot of head ache.

[perato]

One phrase “Marketing, Heritage and Brand Image that often drives Customer Perception/Lack of Technical Knowledge.”

Well said, turbokduo. Overclockers will soon review a book about the subject of marketing.

[Pieter]

Ash, you're welcome.

[Jmac]

Greetings All

I've found this a most fascinating thread to read, with respect to the info on digital amps, and the concepts of marketing etc having such a strong influence on 'perceived' differences in amplifier sound quality.

I've only been a member here a little while, as I have a strong liking for B&W speakers, having owned them in the past, and greatly enjoy the chat and knowledge shared here.

At the risk of taking this thread a little of tack, I'd like to share a little tale with you all.

I've been involved with HiFi for nearly 40 years, and have a background in classical music both study and performance. My early 'starter' systems included Dual and Thorens turntables, Sansui (remember them?) Yamaha amps, and then one you probably have never heard of, a NZ made amp called a "Rait" essentially a modified copy of a Radford.

The Rait was paired with a TD125 Mk 11 Thorens TT, SME 3009 s11 tonearm/shure V15III cartridge (a classic in it's day) and a pair of B&W DM2a's. This sytem saw the best part of 20 odd years service, with a few years in between idle, whilst I was travelling etc.

Eventually I wanted CD, and of course one thing lead to another, as the kit was getting old, and I ended up a few years back with a complete Naim-Audio system (CD player, pre-power, speakers etc).

Over the last few years I've been dabbling with HT, and now own one of the current Sony All digital amps/receivers - the US version has a tuner, whilst the Euro version is an amp only - it's the STR-DA9000ES as sold in the US.

As the Naim gear is VERY expensive and comes from a highly reputable boutique/specialist manufacturer, I assumed it would easily better the Sony, so for the first few months I've had it, it's been used via it's pre-outs to drive the Naim pre-power, and hence my front Naim speakers, while it drives some small bookshelf Tannoy speakers for the rear surrounds.

About three weeks ago, out of curiosity, as I am thinking of separating out the 2 channel/HT side of things with a set of separate B&W speakers for the sony for HT purposes, I decided to have a listen to the Sony digital amplifier on it's own, i.e. with my naim pre-power completely out of it, with the Sony driving all speakers.

I can catagorically state that the results have not only been amazing, but they have completely shaken up all my preconceived notions of abstract things like prestige, value for money, quality etc. It is without doubt the most musical HT amp/receiver I've ever heard, and one of the very finest amps I've ever heard period.

Turbokuo's assessment of digital amps rang a huge number of bells with me, and I found the comments he made fascinating to say the least. Before I heard this amp, I would never have believed that several users that I have heard of elsewhere, are using it with B&W N801's etc. NOW, having heard it, I can believe it.

I would love to hear more about the marketing angle.

The memory still sticks with me when I first auditioned the Naim kit in an AB with my then Rait. In careful, back and forth A/B switching (changing over speaker leads, using the same source/speakers, and 'matching' as close as possible volume levels) the Naim had the greater detail, and 'liveliness/dynamics' in the sound that I was looking for, but for richness and naturalness of tonal timbre, and an open and transparent sound, there was not a lot in it - if anything those areas were better presented by the Rait. I would've put the difference/upgrade to the Naim as being worth about $2000.00 Australian dollars.

But, the Rait was 20 years old, unknown in Australia and hence 'worth' nothing, whereas the Naim kit was the best part of AU$10k. As I had the money, and felt I wanted a new amp more suited to CD, I bought it.

However, in the light of that experience, I would extrapolate from Turbokuo's comments that with analogue amps, designers are juggling a balance of inherent flaws, whereas digital banishes a great many of them at a stroke.

I also read, on many forums, particularly the Naim one, of the constant upgrading of amps etc, and how Sooooo much better they are than the one before, and how they justify the squillion extra dollars they cost. Now I'm a trained classical musician, and differences do exist, but they are small indeed compared to the huge differences in cost.

All of a sudden, here comes what appears to be a whole new paradigm of amplifier manufacture, with performance from one of the large multinational electronics consumer companies, that matches or betters boutique 'specialist' products costing many thousands of dollars more. To someone like me who loves music and movies, but doesn't have a millionaires income, this is some of the best news/VFM that I have ever found in all the years I've been involved in HiFi.

Lastly, I would also second the thought/philosophy that speakers have the most influence on the sound for a given spend.

To some degree I support the philosophy as espoused by naim, when in the early days they were virtually in partnership with Linn, the mantra was source first, or rubbish in, rubbish out, which made sense in those days, particularly as they were marketing the Linn LP12 turntable.

However, unlike electronics, a speaker is something that can satisfy for a VERY long time, and is in the case of B&W designs a beautiful piece of furniture to live with as well.

I feel that the new digital amps are such a leap forward as to make much over-priced analogue boutique gear almost redundant IMHO.

So much so, that I doubt I will be purchasing more Naim kit in the foreseeable future. I would rather save for what used to be for almost two decades my 'dream' speakers - a pair of B&W 801's, which in combination with these new digital amps should provide a level of SQ that could only previously be attained by a spend of many thousands of dollars more.

Even better, whilst no doubt the boutique companies will get in on the act, and MAY advance the sound quality a little more, the majors, having done all the R & D, and given the overall relative simplicity of the circuit design, seem well capable of putting out superb performing digital amps without the associated marketing/prestige 'hype' and often over the top, what the market will bear, price tags of the so called 'specialist' boutique manufacturers.

Hope I haven't taken the thread off track too much, thanks for listening...:-)

Best Regards

John.... :-)

[Ash]

John,

You haven't taken the thead off track cause the thread's creator said its ok because he also wants to know about digital amps because he is looking for an amp that would suite the B&W 805, feel free to add.

I share your facination with Turbokuo's insights regarding digital amps. It is well known from past experieces that the digital technology has enhanced all the products that it was introduced to. For example mobile phone are much better when the digital technology was used instead of the analogue. So I guess that this will take the same path!

I'm just happy that better sound will be provided for a much cheaper price. Because I was starting to get tired of trying to finance my growing audio needs and demands. Therefore, I will not be purchasing an amp (something that was on top of my list for the past year) untill digital amp are out there in the market and tested. I will be purchasing other components in the mean time.

Lets hope this is a new and better era for amp

[SPACEMANRICK]

I am getting worn down a little from all this research and shopping around. It is a little tough with 2 little kids running around my home office. The information on the digital amp is very interesting and I may end up just picking up the Denon 2805 and maybe upgrading after I give them a listen and the prices come down a bit.

I talked to my dealer again today and it turns out the 805 stands even after
a good discount discount are about $750 Canadian. It turns out my wife
prefers the 805 stands. My full cost for the 805 with stands, 2805 receiver,
and DCM 380 5 cd changer is just over $5000. My full cost for the 704' s which don't need stands, 2805 receiver, and DCM 380 5 cd changer is $4000. Has anyine heard the 704's and what are their thoughts on the sound of the 704 compared to the 805S? I have not heard the 704's but I have heard the 705's and they sounded very nice also but not quite as nice as the 805S.......... I just talked to my wife this morning and she said maybe we should go for the 804S for $6,500 Canadian including the Denon 2805 and DCM 380. Is this $1500 increase in price for the 804S worth it from the 805S with the 805 speaker stands? Can I at least for now, make use of the Denon 2805 100 watt receiver to run the 804S speakers? Sorry for our indecision but we want to make the right choice and these speakers are damn expensive

[bcgator]

Spacemanrick, I can help you to some degree with that last question about comparing the 704's to the 805S. Though I have never heard the 805S, I moved directly from a set of 704's to a set of 805 Signatures. And I think it's probably not out of line to say that the 805 Signatures sound somewhat, if not very, similar to the 805S.

In my room, with my music, on my equipment the 805 Signatures sound far superior to the 704, both in terms of imaging, soundstage, clarity at both low and ear-bleed volumes, and detail. I listen to Rock, Pop and Jazz, with many of my favorite artists being females (Patricia Barber, Dar Williams, Sarah McLachlan, Alison Krauss) and I'm not sure it's possible for female vocals to sound better than they do on the 805 Sigs. Those of you who've heard the 805 Sigs (or even the 805S) know exactly what I'm talking about - it's a very sweet, liquid, musical sound.

Where the 805 Sigs surprised me the most was with rock - everything they do for Sarah McLachlan, they did for Green Day's "American Idiot" album, or Queensryche's "Empire" DVD-A. Powerful, smooth, detailed, and not fatiguing in the least.

The 704's are very nice speakers, and against products from Klipsch, Infinity, Definitive, Polk, or the B&W 600 line they sound wonderful and a step or two above. I originally bought the 704's after comparing them to so many other speakers, from Snell to Boston Acoustics to the other brands I mentioned. But at that time, I couldn't afford the 805 Sigs so never bothered to listen to them.

I don't like to be over-dramatic when comparing speakers, because it's a subjective process. So no "blow them away" or "leave them in the dust" or "kill them with a shotgun and an army tank and a Comanche attack helicopter" comments about the 805 Sig vs. 704 comparison. But if your budget can handle the cost difference between the 704 and 805S, and it won't leave you filled with buyer's remorse for an extended period of time, it will be money very well spent every time you hit the power button on your amp and que up your favorite artist. Very simply, I enjoy listening to music on the 805Sigs far more than I ever did with the 704.

BCGator

PS: if you're wondering about the bass-reproduction differences between the stand-mounted 805Sig and the 704, the first time I heard the two side-by-side in a showroom I turned to the sales rep and asked in these words, "how is that little monitor making that much bass?" and them promptly walked around the room making sure all the subs were switched off. I still use a sub with hard rock music and home theater, but I felt the bass of the 805 Sig was actually better than on the 704. Surprising to say, but that's what my 38-year old ears and ribs heard and felt.

[SPACEMANRICK]

Thanks bcgator, I am now leaning again to the 805S with the 805S speaker stands. But I am now also considering the 804S floor mount speakers because those speaker stands for the 805S make up about 40% of the difference between the 805S speakers and the 804S speakers.

"bcgator" are you located in British Columbia?

[bcgator]

No, did grad school at Boston College, undergrad at University of Florida (Gators).

:-)
Eric