B&W ASW750 or Velodyne DD-12?

[beden1]

I am planning on doing some tweaks to my second system (different house), and was looking for some help. Currently have 703 fronts, HTM3S center, and two ASW750 subs. Have not been able to run wires yet for surrounds, and I'm kind of enjoying music more without them. The room is 32'x18'x24'ceilings, with openings to a foyer, 14'x14' dining room, and another opening to a 25'x14' family room. Seating is facing the width, and is positioned from 13' to 17' from the front speakers, etc.

I really like to ASW750 subs for music, and they blend very well with the 703s. In my other setup, I have two Velodyne DD-12s in a large room as well. I love the DD-12s for dynamic HT, but, I prefer the ASW750s for music.

My plan is to eventually add either the 803D or 803S for front speakers (and use my 703s for the surrounds). So, if I kept the 750s and used them with the 803s later, would they, or would they not balance well with the 803s . . . as do the 703s?

My option is to swap the DD-12s with the 750s (have to cross ship them between FL and PA).

[style]

Sub

Hallo,

I have in this moment 703, htm7, 750sub ,cdm7nt rear:

the sub 750 B&W in Europe (i life in Switzerland) is not so expensive as the dd12 and pice a part the B&W for my is fell better.

I go the buy a 803s or 804s and the 750 is without problem with the serie
800 to be "assembled" = you can buy all nautilus serie 800 and the 750
combinieren.


my opinion
Omar

[scanido]

Velodyne DD all the way!

[chinets]

I would personally prefer ASW 855 with your speakers ,to match perfectly and feel that LOW gut 15 " In your face bass that is soooo smooth my friend, and the 800 series subs are awsome sounding !! :T ;x( But, if you had to choose between the 750, and Velodyne DD-12s too !!
Velodyne Amigo I concur !! :W

[akhter]

I am planning on doing some tweaks to my second system (different house), and was looking for some help. Currently have 703 fronts, HTM3S center, and two ASW750 subs. Have not been able to run wires yet for surrounds, and I'm kind of enjoying music more without them. The room is 32'x18'x24'ceilings, with openings to a foyer, 14'x14' dining room, and another opening to a 25'x14' family room. Seating is facing the width, and is positioned from 13' to 17' from the front speakers, etc.

I really like to ASW750 subs for music, and they blend very well with the 703s. In my other setup, I have two Velodyne DD-12s in a large room as well. I love the DD-12s for dynamic HT, but, I prefer the ASW750s for music.

My plan is to eventually add either the 803D or 803S for front speakers (and use my 703s for the surrounds). So, if I kept the 750s and used them with the 803s later, would they, or would they not balance well with the 803s . . . as do the 703s?

My option is to swap the DD-12s with the 750s (have to cross ship them between FL and PA).

zomg DD12 pwns ASW750 lolz

ok, in plain english, DD12 all the way...

[ejuanpiman]

dd12 baby

[scanido]

Looking at your size room, i would go for nothing short of a single DD18.

Better yet dual DD18 if money is no object

[ZX10 Guy]

Looking at your size room, i would go for nothing short of a single DD18.

Better yet dual DD18 if money is no object

+1

ITA

[beden1]

Looking at your size room, i would go for nothing short of a single DD18.

Better yet dual DD18 if money is no object

I know you like your powerful subs! The way the seating is in front of my sound stage, I really need two subs to help balance them so they don't sound so directional. Two DD18s eh! My friend has three of them and is cracking his walls and built-ins.

I'm not so sure on this subject of sub selection. At some point, the subs start overtaking the front speakers, and you lose a quality musical sound. I'm looking for the best balance, but, I'm not so sure if B&W subs are not the best choice to match with B&W speakers. As I said, I really like the Velodynes, but musically, they may be too overbearing. Any thoughts?

[ZX10 Guy]

I know you like your powerful subs! The way the seating is in front of my sound stage, I really need two subs to help balance them so they don't sound so directional. Two DD18s eh! My friend has three of them and is cracking his walls and built-ins.

I'm not so sure on this subject of sub selection. At some point, the subs start overtaking the front speakers, and you lose a quality musical sound. I'm looking for the best balance, but, I'm not so sure if B&W subs are not the best choice to match with B&W speakers. As I said, I really like the Velodynes, but musically, they may be too overbearing. Any thoughts?

I used to think the same way about subs as you. The key is proper calibration and set up. I have a DD18 and don't find the sub to be non musical at all and it's far from being over bearing. And people who know me, know that I would sacrifice bass if it was too boomy for less but more accurate/tighter bass.

[style]

sub. B&W750 vs. DD12

I love my B&W750.

I true that i don't have never a DD10/12/15 or 18 in my room listed.

Before to buy the sub I have see the more possibility:
B&W or Velodyne or Sunfire too.
In Switzerland the B&W750 have the price from the half from a DD12!!
If I look the 2 gear i don't can say that the DD12 is so much better. (Sorry for Velodyne fans)
Velodyne SPL1200mkII or B&W750 and evident 750 was buyed.
Sunfire I find a very good alternative from Velodyne and gain for Sunfire the price too.
----
From Velodyne i like the SMS, compatible with each sub.

Greeting from Switzerland
Omar

[Jmac]

Hmm

To my mind the principle advantage of the DD Velodynes would be the room correction/calibration built into their onboard electronics. On the other hand, having seen some internal photos of the cabinets for the DD15, they are not a patch on the matrix construction of B&W's 800 series subs cabinets in terms of bracing, and hence cabinet vibration and colouration. In fact they appear to be a largely empty box (apart from a separate sub enclosure for the amplification).

As I understand it, you can now purchase the room equalisation electronics separately from Velodyne, thus that plus a B&W 800 series sub must surely offer the best of all worlds between the two IMHO.

However both are very fine subs and it would be a hard choice.

If it were me, I'd side with B&W's to get the best match to the speakers, and (shameless plug) to get a matching veneer finish as well.

But, if the choice was simply B&W AS750 v's DD15, and performance was the major reason for purchase, it'd be the Velodyne in my book given that particular choice.

Best Regards

John....

[style]

sub

1000 minds, 1000 thinking.....

In a set with main from B&W serie 8, the sub i not required a sub from (nautilus?) serie8 (exemple 825), i'm sure.
Ok, the 865 or top linie model is different but the 750 have the possibilty to
be compared at 825.
-------

Look is very personaly viewpoint.....

Omar

[ZX10 Guy]

Hmm

To my mind the principle advantage of the DD Velodynes would be the room correction/calibration built into their onboard electronics. On the other hand, having seen some internal photos of the cabinets for the DD15, they are not a patch on the matrix construction of B&W's 800 series subs cabinets in terms of bracing, and hence cabinet vibration and colouration. In fact they appear to be a largely empty box (apart from a separate sub enclosure for the amplification).

As I understand it, you can now purchase the room equalisation electronics separately from Velodyne, thus that plus a B&W 800 series sub must surely offer the best of all worlds between the two IMHO.

However both are very fine subs and it would be a hard choice.

If it were me, I'd side with B&W's to get the best match to the speakers, and (shameless plug) to get a matching veneer finish as well.

But, if the choice was simply B&W AS750 v's DD15, and performance was the major reason for purchase, it'd be the Velodyne in my book given that particular choice.

Best Regards

John....

Here's Velodyne's response to all the criticisms being handed down to them about the lack of internal bracing:

"A Word on Digital Drive Cabinet Construction

Submitted by
Bruce Hall
Velodyne Acoustics, Inc.

There has been some recent criticism regarding the lack of internal bracing for Digital Drive cabinets, and it has even been suggested that we’ve cut corners on the design of the cabinet. To summarize our position: we have studied the cabinet design for DD, and its predecessor, HGS, extensively. Everything you see inside the cabinet is by design, and there were no corners cut to save money.

In a sealed high-pressure subwoofer cabinet there is high risk of extraneous noises coming from the joints of the enclosure. It is common to inadequately seal and/or reinforce the joints so that rattles, minute air leaks, and other resultant noises occur. In cabinets such as these, internal bracing helps to minimize the strain on the joints so as to minimize these noises. For DD, we liberally caulk and reinforce the cabinet joints, as well as use special tongue and groove routing cuts to ensure that the cabinet joints fit tightly together and never leak or rattle. Since the cabinets are made this way, no internal bracing is needed.

There is a popular misperception that with a high-area piece of MDF, such as the wall of a DD cabinet, the lack of a brace will somehow deteriorate the sound quality of the unit. When we observe the actual flex of the MDF at high pressure, we see that its actual travel area is very small (this is because it’s resonance is very high – well out of the operating range of the woofer). The resultant SPL introduced into the room by the MDF is likewise small, and we have found it to be insignificant. So, we found that internal bracing designed to address this issue had no measurable effect on the sound quality of a DD sub.

There is a penalty for internal bracing, however, and that is reduced internal cabinet volume. A sealed woofer’s efficiency is limited by several factors, and one big one is how much air the woofer needs to compress for each cycle. Said another way, the less internal cabinet volume that exists, the harder the woofer has to work to properly reproduce the input signal because it is expending energy compressing the air inside the cabinet. The Audioholics reviewer noted that, “The DD-18 sports what is just about the smallest cabinet I’ve ever seen an 18” driver bolted into.” This is by design to maximize WAF.

With DD’s high gain digital servo, all the amp power is directed at the faithful reproduction of the input signal, and internal bracing would make the amp and driver work harder to overcome the reduced air volume in the cabinet. So again, we found that internal bracing actually made the woofer less efficient and robbed it of performance.

Others have testified that they cannot hear any sound degradation of DD subs, even close up. That is because the flexing of the MDF walls has not proven to be a factor in woofer sound quality, and we have thus not paid the penalty of reduced internal cabinet volume to address it.

Incidentally, the actual MDF thickness for DD cabinets is 1” all around, not .75” as mentioned in the review. This is our bad – we were offered a fact check on the review and we missed it. This thicker wall means even less of the effects described above. Also, we should note that while the exterior of the DD cabinet is veneered, the inside is also veneered. This is to prevent deterioration of the MDF over time.

This is not to say that the DD-18 cabinet does not vibrate, nor that it has the world’s most pleasing “thud” when you knock on the side of the cabinet. It is trivial to design for those niceties, but we’ve found they do not improve the performance of the woofer. And performance is what DD is all about.

I hope this helps clarify our position on this issue, and again I apologize for any redundancies with Mark's post.

Bruce"

And, yes, you can get the DD electronics as an outboard EQ for non DD subs. It's called the SMS-1. You get most of the functionality except the ability for the EQ electronics being able to monitor the servo which the DD series has.

[chinets]

Just go for 2 ASW 855 subs and you'll be in Bass heaven !! :T ;x(
If you decide to go with 15" subs ,then ASW 855 subs beat hands down any Velodyne DD-12,15 or even 18... etc Anytime anywhere!! :T :W
However, if you decide between ASW 750 and Velodyne then I would stick to the Velodyne!!
Does that make sense :W Again, that is IMHO!!
Cheers

[ZX10 Guy]

Just go for 2 ASW 855 subs and you'll be in Bass heaven !! :T ;x(
If you decide to go with 15" subs ,then ASW 855 subs beat hands down any Velodyne DD-12,15 or even 18... etc Anytime anywhere!! :T :W
However, if you decide between ASW 750 and Velodyne then I would stick to the Velodyne!!
Does that make sense :W Again, that is IMHO!!
Cheers

That's a pretty bold statement. Do you have supporting evidence to back up those claims. All the comparo tests I've seen for mass market subs have the DD18 and the Fathom 13" subs on the top. I don't see B&W subs anywhere on the list. This has been backed up by tests done at Audioholics and AV Talk.

[Pookie007]

Velodyne makes an SC (subcontractor) series. I spoke to the Velodyne factory and they talked me out of the DD series. I was able to get the SC amp and two 15" for the price of a single DD12. With the SC amp and 2 passive subs, you can equalize the room using both subs at once. With the DD or SPL series you have to eq them one at a time. The only draw back is you have an extra component in your audio rack.

[ZX10 Guy]

Velodyne makes an SC (subcontractor) series. I spoke to the Velodyne factory and they talked me out of the DD series. I was able to get the SC amp and two 15" for the price of a single DD12. With the SC amp and 2 passive subs, you can equalize the room using both subs at once. With the DD or SPL series you have to eq them one at a time. The only draw back is you have an extra component in your audio rack.

It's not that bad to eq two DD subs. Per the instruction manual, you auto EQ the "slave" sub, then run the serial comms cable to the "master" sub and then run your EQ again.

I'm going to experiment with a bit of different setup. Some of the guys over at AVSForum have been experimenting with cascading subs. I'm going to try that with my HGS15 handling the upper bass and the DD18 everything else down low. Should be interesting to see how this works out.

[akhter]

Just go for 2 ASW 855 subs and you'll be in Bass heaven !! :T ;x(
If you decide to go with 15" subs ,then ASW 855 subs beat hands down any Velodyne DD-12,15 or even 18... etc Anytime anywhere!! :T :W
However, if you decide between ASW 750 and Velodyne then I would stick to the Velodyne!!
Does that make sense :W Again, that is IMHO!!
Cheers

Even my B&W dealer disagrees with you :E

[beden1]

Velodyne makes an SC (subcontractor) series. I spoke to the Velodyne factory and they talked me out of the DD series. I was able to get the SC amp and two 15" for the price of a single DD12. With the SC amp and 2 passive subs, you can equalize the room using both subs at once. With the DD or SPL series you have to eq them one at a time. The only draw back is you have an extra component in your audio rack.

This is very interesting but I need help figuring this out. You get the SC-1250 Amp, then you get the SC-15's, or the SC-IW(in-wall)? Is the SC-IW a sub woofer that you mount into the wall? What is this compared to as in 12" or 15"? Or, did you get the SC-15s, and are these just slave speakers with no power amps in them? So, if I get the SC-1250 and two SC-15s, there is really nothing built into the wall, and it's hooked up just like a normal receiver to two speakers? (How does this sound compared to say two DD-15s)? Thanks for your help.

[beden1]

I've been reading about the Velodyne SC-1250 amp and twin SC-15 subs in their contractor series. This sound like an excellent arrangement whereas the SC-1250 calibrates and equalizes both subs in stereo. The price for the SC-1250 and two SC-15 subs is about $3,000 retail. I'd really like to learn about how these sound as compared to a more traditional twin DD-15s.

[beden1]

I called Velodyne

I asked my high end retailer about going to the direction of getting the Velodyne Contractor Series SC-1250 amp and two SC-15s (package at retail is $3,000).

My retailer's response: " Yes, we have used a number of them already. They are about 60-70% of a DD series in performance...but they fit a lot of spaces due to the smallish cabinets. You do lose some of the performance of their best subs because of the remote location of the amp. Also if you want to get nearer the DD performance you need 1 amp for each woofer, not 1 for both. But if space is a premium it might be a good way to go.

This response had me now doubting the quality of the Contractor Series. So, I called Velodyne and was fortunate to speak with one of their top engineers. Velodyne's response to my dealer's opinions:
"Does your retailer have an engineering degree? He is absolutely wrong!" He almost jumped through the phone regarding the comments of the retailer. I laughed, and later found he was the lead engineer in the development of the series. He said on specs, the SC-15 sub shows more distortion, but, that this distortion is not audible at those lower frequency levels. He said that their equalization tests and capabilities are leading Velodyne more into this direction for the future.

He also said that only one SC-1250 amp is needed for both subs, as this sub is designed to produce better, running two subs as opposed to one. Additionally, he said that only the DD-10 and DD-12 subs demand most of their amplifier power, and that the DD-15 and DD-18 place far less demand on power. So, he said that two SC-15s will be running very efficiently driven by the SC-1250.

Needless to say, I'm very interested in Velodyne's Contractor Series, and I'm fairly confident that I will be going with this direction. Thanks to all for their helpful input.

[chinets]

ZX10Guy & Akhter,
That was NOT a bold statement! :E I said It was IMHO !! My taste and my ears with my set up, which are 800 D series, and I have auditioned the Velodyne DDs of all sizes: And with my speakers , and it was and remains the best and correct choice and match for my set up , my speakers, and IMHO are and remain the ASW 855 ,and I am getting for my new house, 2 more, to add to my already 2 that I have.!! :T
I have the 800D for front L&R, and 4 802D for rear and surround ,with the HTM1D as center ,so the synergy of the ASW 855 is optimom due to matrix braced box that the ASW is built within! ;x( That gives the right Bass for the 800 D series in my opinion, and B&W believes the same, that is why it is better to get speakers from the same brand to optimize the same timbre sound. :T

My dealer disagrees with your's too ,and he is bigger than your dealer too!! :rofl: So what are you gonna do about it?? ;zx :a> :-y

Have fun guys: Really, this is my opinion ,and my ears ,for my set up!! Sorry ,I prefer the B&W ASW 855 over any Velodyne DD for my speakers: Is that a crime!! :roll: :E

Cheers !!

[ac81017]

Asw 750

I have a asw750, a fansatic sub, a real musical sub, hard and tight and not to much boom boom!

why do some people have two or more subs in a small room, I see coments like, my subs have started to make the walls crack! HELLO, are you F...ing DEAF!! If you want wild bass buy a PA rig with 1000´s of watts, that´ll bring the house down and give you a life time headache!

Does that much bass even sound good?? I think to much bass in both films and music messes up the sound big time! Even I love the trill of ICE AGE! I like to be shaken, but not stured!

If I had a really big living room, I would buy two asw750 just so that the bass can be rich and smooth!

I say from the asw750 to the asw855! You can´t go wrong! :T

[William]

I have a Velodyne 15" servo sub (F-1500) bought in 1993 and going 24/7 since then. It still works perfectly and have no plans to replace it.