Biwiring 802D

[Birdy]

Hi guys,

I might want give a trial to biwire my 802D.

What kind of changes might I expect?

Birdy

[Kobus]

The soundstage will open up and be .............

I'm talking nonsence. All I will say is do not expect anything. Do it, if there is a change for the better, good for you.

Kobus

[Birdy]

The soundstage will open up and be .............

I'm talking nonsence. All I will say is do not expect anything. Do it, if there is a change for the better, good for you.

Kobus

I might have ...... just by biwiring and not biamping?

What would happen if I biamp then , my walls will disappear? :P :P :P

Birdy

[Kal Rubinson]

Hi guys,

I might want give a trial to biwire my 802D.

What kind of changes might I expect?

Birdy

If you know what to expect, that's what you'll hear. :W

Kal

[Birdy]

If you know what to expect, that's what you'll hear. :W

Kal

This forum is more cerebral than I thought.... ops: :roll: 8)

[OmegaSpeed]

Something to consider. If the speaker cables that you are going to purchase are much more expensive in biwire form vs. the single run version, I highly recommend spending that amount on a higher model and using jumpers.

I have always used biwires when necessary but I recently replaced my biwire speaker cables for single run wires from the same company, but two models up and used the stock B&W jumpers and the difference was not subtle.

For the wire naysayers, just laugh at us and move on.

[William]

My electrons said that bi-wiring was confusing and slowed them down because they had to decide on which wire to take. I asked then which brand of wire was the best and they said that from the inside they could not read the fancy brand name and could only see copper.

[Kal Rubinson]

My electrons said that bi-wiring was confusing and slowed them down because they had to decide on which wire to take.

You need to try a biwire pair with labels for high and low frequencies so that the specific electrons for each will quickly know where to go.

I asked then which brand of wire was the best and they said that from the inside they could not read the fancy brand name and could only see copper.

That's because they are not paying attention. Perhaps you should try using positrons for current and avoid all the negativity you are experiencing. :roll:

Kal

[caleb]

At the end of the day it is true in my experience that a GOOD set of single cables with GOOD jumpers will always sound better than a poor set of bi-wires.

[Kal Rubinson]

At the end of the day it is true in my experience that a GOOD set of single cables with GOOD jumpers will always sound better than a poor set of bi-wires.

OK. My experience is that, in general, it makes no difference at all. Single wiring is just easier and more convenient.

GOOD, of course, is the operative word which ever way one goes.

Kal

[Birdy]

At the end of the day it is true in my experience that a GOOD set of single cables with GOOD jumpers will always sound better than a poor set of bi-wires.

What about 2 sets of GOOD cables

[bigburner]

My electrons said that bi-wiring was confusing and slowed them down because they had to decide on which wire to take. I asked then which brand of wire was the best and they said that from the inside they could not read the fancy brand name and could only see copper.

Unless it's special copper...

The US military is using a special type of copper that has different properties to normal copper. This copper is better for a small number of specific applications because signals or data are transferred with a much lower error rate.

This special copper is also found in small sections of the hi-fi industry because the owner of the mine in Zambia where it comes from has had connections to the hi-fi industry for over 30 years.

Scientists do not yet understand why this copper behaves the way that it does. Uranium and zinc are found in the same mine, which apparently is most unusual. Scientists have not been able to re-create this copper in the lab. This special copper can be added to normal copper at a concentration of less than 1 part per 1000 and it will transfer its properties to the normal copper. The only way that this copper can be detected is by its behaviour. The sub-atomic nature of the variation means that there is no easy test.

I believe that this copper is being used in selected speaker cables and interconnects from a small number of manufacturers, which explains why they sound better. It also explains why they are so expensive. I don’t know who these manufacturers are but I do know that materials used for commercial manufacturing cannot be kept secret for ever. The owner of the mine in Zambia has a Scandinavian name and is sometimes referred to as the father of hi-fi in his country.

I am sure that some of you will know what I’m talking about.

Nigel.

[Birdy]

Well guys,

I tried and tried and tried.
Going from mono to bi and back with 2 sets of high quality cables.
Also, as recommended elsewhere in this forum, I included my wife's ears to have an objective advise. :T

Conclusion is ( drum rolls............ :P :P :P :P :P :P ):

My ears: much better in bi, more realistic, more texture in instruments, soundstage a little wider, a bit more separation between instruments.

Wifes' ears: much better in bi, more warmth, erase a bit some flaws on certain discs.

So bi is our thing! :B

Just my experience.

Birdy

[Lex]

Be careful to always specify that the "bi" concerns speaker cables. We would not want anyone getting any ideas, especially your wife, lol. (ok, so it's a bad joke, it's all I got this morning)

At the end of the day it is true in my experience that a GOOD set of single cables with GOOD jumpers will always sound better than a poor set of bi-wires.

This is Zen like Caleb, I am so impressed.

[Glenee]

I too have Bi-Wired much to the advice not to by many. I did it with good speaker cable, good amps, and good connectors. Listened it was better in my little mind. I then took the advice of someone on another forum and put jumpers made with same wire on the negative post only. I took a CD that is not the smoothest in the low end and a little eratic in the High's definate improvement. I guess all the information just gets to the speaker better and the dampining on the low's is eaiser to achieve with more gauge wire. You talk about smoothness and clarity more noticible than just the Bi-Wire alone. It's proabally all mental but I don't think so. My ears are all that matters. :T
Glenee

[Jesse111]

If you know what to expect, that's what you'll hear. :W

Kal

Well stated and pretty much sums up most of high end audio.

I biwire. But I can't tell any difference. None at all. Can anyone? The answer to that question is clear in my mind but others may make many claims. I believe true blind testing on this matter just may embarrass many who honestly think they can hear a difference. But so what. If you feel better going bi then hey, to each his own. "Not that there's anything wrong with that".

I biwire simply because it looks cool. But of course I use fairly inexpensive cable. No audible difference to me. Just remember, if you use expensive cable, instead of biwire... you'll just plain buywire. :rofl:

But I agree with Glenee. Your ears are all that matters. Have fun that's what its all about.

[Glenee]

I will try and explain this only once and never again on this forum. One of my dear freinds had a Uncle who had attended a Piano tuning College ( only 4 in the world last count) When graduated he had to seek gainful employment. He then moved to Vegas to tune piano's for the Stars among others. They started using electronic equipment to tune with absolutley perfect Electronically. He began to fear his job and profession may be in trouble. All the stars started complaining how bad their piano's sounded wanted to know what happen to the guy who used to tune them perfectly. Liberace said he would not go on until they found someone to tune it to his satisfaction. My friends Uncle never missed another days work until he passed away. Some things are better Off not left up to perfect electronics and calculations. The Human ear is a wonderful sense that GOD gave us. All you have to do is listen! It's you money isin't it.
Blessed,
Glenee

[Lex]

I quite candidly do tell people that I myself, the cable magician, do not bi-wire my main speakers. What sort of travesty is this? Do, I not believe in what I do!?! Far from it.

I tell people that the quality of my main left and right speaker cable is such, that it outweighs possible benefit from bi-wiring.

When asked by customers if bi-wiring makes a difference, I am quite candid. I tell them that some people claim to be able to hear a difference in their systems. That generally speaking, the higher resolution the system, that all things being equal, the more likely that they will be able to tell a difference with bi-wires. However, I also tell them they are much more likely to hear the difference if they put the extra $ from bi-wire money into better interconnects. Use quality speaker wires, that are designed to last a long time, bi-wire not absolute necessary. But I do like to see the solid plates replaced with jumpers if not bi-wiring. This is something you can do yourself if you wish, with standard 12 gauge. I'd rather see standard 12 gauge or higher jumper to the bass section than the plates, then connect your best speaker cables, to the upper register.

[steelgtr]

Hi Guys,

I'm a new N805 HTM2 owner. I am using Blue Jean Cable 10 ga (Belden) wire with the standard B&W jumper wire.

I'm confused by the above statement:

"I'd rather see standard 12 gauge or higher jumper to the bass section than the plates, then connect your best speaker cables, to the upper register."

I've never logically believed in hocus-pocus wire hype, just good copper but am open to trying any suggestions. My electronics are B&K ref20/4430 combo.

thx

bob

[Glenee]

I have 802D'S. What I did before I Bi-Wired was I took off the fine jumper cables that came with the 802'S and jumped with the same wire I was running to the Speakers. This being said I have no info on the B&W Jumpers they look great. What I did after Bi-Wire was left the negative(Black) jumper on and took the Positive ( RED) Off. This is good stuff in my opinion. :T
Glenee

[steelgtr]

But I do like to see the solid plates replaced with jumpers if not bi-wiring. This is something you can do yourself if you wish, with standard 12 gauge. I'd rather see standard 12 gauge or higher jumper to the bass section than the plates, then connect your best speaker cables, to the upper register.

Lex,

Please explain? Upper register?


thx

bob

[Glenee]

He saying that you should use at least 12 Gauge wire or larger for your jumpers, but when you hook you main speaker wires to the speaker from the amp hook to the top posts or highs with the jumpers relaying to the bottom post or lows.

[steelgtr]

He saying that you should use at least 12 Gauge wire or larger for your jumpers, but when you hook you main speaker wires to the speaker from the amp hook to the top posts or highs with the jumpers relaying to the bottom post or lows.

Thanks, but just to be clear, Is he saying "only" put the jumper on the black side?

"I'd rather see standard 12 gauge or higher jumper to the bass section than the plates."

thx

bob

[Glenee]

If you have 1 (one) set of speaker wires 2 wires total to each speaker you will have to use the jumpers on both sets of post. I, Me only, said that when you Bi-Wire 2(two) set'S of speaker wires 4 wires total to each speaker 1(one) wire to each available post on each speaker. I, Me, had a good experience with Bi-Wire 4 wires to each speaker 1 to each post on the speaker. Which is the most recommended way to Bi-Wire. I noticed a difference to the good with leaving the one jumper on the Negative post(Black) NOT OFF as in a usual Bi-Wire configuration.
Glenee

[steelgtr]

Thanks, Glenee

I'll try your way if I ever get a set of bi-wires


bob

[gerardhn]

The nordost cables are standard biwireed. No problem, no discussion. Because my classe amp has 4 binding post per channel, nordost made a full biwired cable. Electrons are separated in the amp.!
Works fine!

[caleb]

Lex,

Please explain? Upper register?


thx

bob

Lex - I am also interested in this statement.

There have been debates about this on other forums if I understand you correctly.

I feed my SINGLE WIRE cables to the LF terminal and then "Jump" to the HF terminal using the same wire as the feeder cables.

I also tried feeding in the opposite way - i.e. feeding to the HF terminal and then "jumping"to the LF terminal.

Blowed if I could hear a difference mate!

Please explain your reasoning for going to the HF terminal first.

[Kobus]

Electrons are separated in the amp.!
Works fine!

You are joking, are you ???

Kobus

[steelgtr]

The nordost cables are standard biwireed. No problem, no discussion. Because my classe amp has 4 binding post per channel, nordost made a full biwired cable. Electrons are separated in the amp.!
Works fine!

Do standard bi-wire cables only have 2 wires at the amp end and then pig-tail a second pair at the speaker end? I would have thought they run 2 parallel pairs form amp to speaker?

bob

[Lex]

Ok, when I say upper register, I mean upper octaves, I guess that's musician speak. Glenee was correct in saying what he did about the jumpers.

The copper wire jumpers, replace the brass plates that typically connect the upper set of posts to highs, to lower set of posts (lows), and yes there are 2 of them, one for red side and one for black. What I am saying is, use your best wire (assuming you bought a pair of single CAT Cables Cattails for example) for the highs, or top left and right post, and then jump some basic speaker wire down to the lower posts. This effectively replaces the plates, so you can take those out. That, IMO is preferred to just leaving the factory jump plates between the 2 sets of posts.

To answer the last question, this can go either way, you can have full bi-wires with full sets of unique wires jumped to low side. You can have single wires split out by the manufacturer to each of 2 sides (assuming they use more heat shrink or insulation to separate them at the speaker end. Or theoretically, and the worst choice would be cut wires, and then pigtails affixed to end for both sides. Make sense?

I hope that clears up what I meant for all. :-)
Doug
CATCables.com

[steelgtr]

He saying that you should use at least 12 Gauge wire or larger for your jumpers, but when you hook you main speaker wires to the speaker from the amp hook to the top posts or highs with the jumpers relaying to the bottom post or lows.

Does it really matter, top or bottom if using good quality jumpers?

Are the supplied B&W jumpers good?

thx

bob

[caleb]

You are joking, are you ???

Kobus

Hey Kobus - I hope he is joking, or that it lost a bit in the translation ! !

[caleb]

Does it really matter, top or bottom if using good quality jumpers?

Are the supplied B&W jumpers good?

thx

bob

NO! the supplied B&W jumpers are not good - they are only average.

Rather use a piece of your supply cable instead.

[docp]

I have a question re: using different type/quality of wire to the hi and low.

I am currently using an old Rotel integrated amp to power 805s, it is 60 wpc and not enough to get the most out of the speakers. I just upgraded my main Classe system so I can't afford to change the Rotel.

So I tried to change the speaker cables to get something close to the sound I wanted. One set of wires were very detailed at the high end, but bass was not great. The other set provided a solid bass response, but the high end suffered.

At the end, I biwired with both the cables. The one that provided good base to the low post and the cable with bright detail to the high post. Now I find the sound is very dependent on the recording, but overall a good balance.

I'm no electronic wizard, is it OK to use different wire?

[fordster]

It's fine to use different wire and some wire manufacturers actually recommend doing so. They also make biwire cable with different wires for hi and lo. The theory is that bass and treble have different characteristics and so are suited to different cable types.

[docp]

That's good ,because I like the end results. Thanks.

[at_sunset_blvd]

Go for MIT's , They have a great BI-WIRE selections & it has those network boxes that divides the HF & LF properly unlike those snake size cables w/ just twin heads at the end. Well I could say there's not much difference between Bi-Wiring & not, years ago being a novice in the audio world basically we just start to use single wiring to the speakers then make an upgrade as usual to up the ante, I did notice a slight improvement about a 5% emphasis on hooking my speakers with Bi-Wires (MIT 350's) you could hear that the mids has become more clearer & wider while the lows are a bit tighter, better imaging overall or maybe thats just me. Well its up to your opinions guys if there's a significance on the wiring status on your systems. Best Regards